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Theodore Needs To Go!


justintb

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I have to laugh when people say we need to wait to get equal value for Theo..what is equal value for an over priced goaltender who's had one good season? Lets be honest, if we can get rid of Theo, and get any reasonable asset in return, it needs to be done. I've allways said that a team in this stage of developement doesn't need a big dollar goaltender anyway, we would be just as well going this season and next with Danis and Huet sharing the duties, and wait for Price to develop. In 3 years or so, with a few deft moves, Habs should be a contender. We're not winning a cup before that, so I say we go with a couple of second tier goaltenders.

I've been saying this for a while now. In addition, it's been shown that you can win or at least make the playoffs without that high priced goalie - like the Oilers are doing, the Canucks etc..

I think it's expected that the fans will jump all over a particular player. I do think it was unfair when done to Brisebois, but we haven't as yet seen Bob jump in to defend THEO, maybe that's because THEO desrves it. THEO is crap and THEO has been a jackass to him just like everyone else. I honestly think if you still believe that he won't be traded you're fooling yourself, I think it's just a matter of time.

The return is almost irrelevant at this point.

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Theodore has not adjusted well to the new NHL - especially with regards to the equipment aspect of the new rules. As a result of his struggles to adapt it seems that he's basically reached a point where he appears to have completely lost his confidence. A couple of extremely uncharacteristic juicy 'Esche-like' rebounds last night against Carolina were good indications of how he seems to be fighting his new pads. And this has been happening a lot this season, to say the least. It seems his lack of confidence is affecting how he reacts to the rebounds he's giving up - the fact he is out of position and flopping around like a fish out of water. All of it adds up to a recipe for disaster in goal for the Habs most nights when he starts.

So, given that predicament and the fact that the Habs have a huge investment(and remember money talks loudest) in Theo, then the concept of starting Huet at home and Theodore on the road has some real merit. By doing so it might give Theodore a chance to work through his problems without 21,000 plus hostile fans ready to lynch him the moment he screws up. It's awfully hard to gain your confidence under those circumstances. Just imagine if everyone in your office building is watching every move you make, ready to pounce on you when you make a mistake - do you think you're going to be more confident? As Hamilton is probably not an option under the waiver rules, then Gainey has to explore alternate options, one of which may be away games.

Also one needs to take into account that just axing a player who is struggling can have an adverse effect on other players in certain circumstances. i.e. Does it send a message that management will simply give up on you the first time you hit a major slump? As a fan with no 'vested' interest other than passion it is very easy to make armchair decisions based on little or no inside information. Contracts - size, length, wording, bonuses, etc all play a major role in making any trade in the new NHL. Who knows how hard Gainey may have tried to swing a deal for Theo and certain others but couldn't thanks to the salary cap factor?

What value can you realistically expect for a player struggling so badly. If you were a rival GM would you give top value for that individual. In real world terms - would you pay top value for a house with obvious damage? Not a chance, right! The same applies here, like it or not. And if he regains his form after he's traded then what - was Gainey an imbecile/poor judge of talent? Right now, the way Theo is struggling this is a no win situation. Or is it - the Habs desperately need a big defenceman and the draft may be the best route to one!

Theo is definitely struggling and something needs to be done, but it isn't as easy as some are suggesting in the abundance of vitriolic on anonymous forum chat sites.

But as they sometimes like to say 'The grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence.....' B)

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Also one needs to take into account that just axing a player who is struggling can have an adverse effect on other players in certain circumstances. i.e. Does it send a message that management will simply give up on you the first time you hit a major slump?

See, this is where I disagree. Management has not just given up on Theo, if they did, he would have been gone a long time ago. He's been given every opportunity to make up for his poor play yet doesn't seem to be making any improvements. Perfect example was when Bob took over and put him in net after Julien was ready to sit him. It appears as though Claude had given enough chances and was ready to play Huet more. Maybe Gainey will come to that realization soon enough as well. There's only so many chances you can give a guy. If he doesn't make good on them, then what else can management do?

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i still predict that the team will turn things around, win the cup this year, and theo will win the conn smythe.

he just needs to get his confidence back, the ability and reflexes are still there.

Now heres an optimist if i've ever saw one :)

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See, this is where I disagree. Management has not just given up on Theo, if they did, he would have been gone a long time ago. He's been given every opportunity to make up for his poor play yet doesn't seem to be making any improvements. Perfect example was when Bob took over and put him in net after Julien was ready to sit him. It appears as though Claude had given enough chances and was ready to play Huet more. Maybe Gainey will come to that realization soon enough as well. There's only so many chances you can give a guy. If he doesn't make good on them, then what else can management do?

I'm not suggesting for a moment that there isn't a point where you need to give up on something. The question mark and context of what I wrote indicate that this was more a question of if this was how Gainey was looking at this situation, especially given Gainey's longstanding modus operandi. Obviously at some point a call will have to be made on whether the Habs want to continue to hold on to 'damaged goods' or move on.

To say Theo has had every chance to work through this mess is something I can't determine - only management knows that for sure. I would say the fact that Gainey drafted a goalie in the first round indicates that he has some long term plan beyond Theodore in the works - were alarm bells already going off somewhere in the organization? Is the fact that Gainey has sent certain rookies down to Hamilton a measure to prevent their confidence being affected unnecessarily by this situation? All are hypothetical questions that I don't know the answers to, but I would love to as a Habs fan!

Given the structure of pro sports people need to realize that NHL management is basically an 'old boys club' and there are basic codes that must be followed. Selling a player for the basic 'bag of used pucks and a broken down zamboni' would have certain internal repurcussions. Gainey is well aware of that and is operating within those parameters as well as what the team needs are. Quite frankly, being a fan who wants someone out of town is far easier than being an NHL manager who wants to move a problem child.

And that's really what "my NHL" is like under the new cap..... ^_^

Like it or not, unless some rival manager folds his proverbial tent, then Theo is here to stay for a while. Realism needs to rule over unbridled emotion in making this decision - Will the aquisition and the action itself benefit the club in the long run?

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Theodore's play is just pathetic. I can't see any team giving us any value for him, and why trade him if nothing decent can be had in return?

Better to stick it out, and hope he returns to form..if not then this could be one long year.

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We were willing to get Bertuzzi when he was struggling.

Just who is "we" in your statement? We, the fans? We, the management that fans have no control over or input with? We, the facelesss contributors to an internet forum?

First, there's no proof that Bertuzzi was ever available to Montreal or any other team in the league, despite what a "confidential source inside the organization" might provide to reporter over one too many wobbly pops one night. That could be anyone from a secretary to a janitor who empties the garbage can and glances over a sheet of paper that falls out of the bin. If every trade rumour that was printed came true, NHL teams would spend more on team pictures and jersey alterations than anything else.

Second, trades aren't just as simple as a phone call between the GMs. If Bertuzzi was indeed available, what was the asking price? Would you be willing to send three or four guys who were still in their prime, or yet to reach it, for a couple of guys who had a lot less potential than the ones you let go. I saw a lot of rumours including Michael Ryder's name, who's picked up right where he's left off from his rookie year. Plekanec, Perezhogin, Komisarek, etc. In addition, the team had signed Alexei Kovalev during the off-season, so Gainey may have been looking more at the defense than the forwards.

We're not privy to all the inner workings of professional sports teams, a fact that sometimes gets overlooked in all the opinions and suggestions that get tossed around. As much as we'd like to believe we have all the answers, sometimes we're not reading the questions before we respond.

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I blame Bob Gainey. He needs to stand up for Theodore like he did Brisebois. Theodore is struggling right now and doesn't need the added pressure of fans booing him everytime he takes to the ice.

Is that really helping any? Is that going to help him regain his form? No.

I challenge Bob Gainey to stand up and defend Jose Theodore. Show some confidence in a guy who has no confidence in himself right now. Even if he is planning on trading him. Protect your team buddy.

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I blame Bob Gainey. He needs to stand up for Theodore like he did Brisebois. Theodore is struggling right now and doesn't need the added pressure of fans booing him everytime he takes to the ice.

Is that really helping any? Is that going to help him regain his form? No.

I challenge Bob Gainey to stand up and defend Jose Theodore. Show some confidence in a guy who has no confidence in himself right now. Even if he is planning on trading him. Protect your team buddy.

He has!....................not working!

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I honestly think if you still believe that he won't be traded you're fooling yourself, I think it's just a matter of time.

The return is almost irrelevant at this point.

Maybe he'll be traded, maybe not, but I can guarantee you that for the guy who will make that decision, the return is far from irrelevant. Maybe it's irrelevant to you, but not Bob.

Fortunately, Gainey doesn't react to the hysteria of fans ("Oh my God, trade Theo for whatever because he sucks and there is no other alternative!!"). The alternatives include waiting for him to regain his form, and while this is happening, making sure he's comfortable at the end of the bench.

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The puzzling thing was how well he played against TO. This shows that he's not a totally lost cause and that he CAN play well when rested and focused.

I said after the TO game that Gainey should have gone with Huet for the next game, rather than throw Theo back into the fire, and last night proved me right. Theo is almost certainly very stressed and mentally exhausted at this point. We need to give Huet two or three games in a row and then put in Theo for one game...then come back with Huet...

Basically: make Theo your #2 guy for 2-3 weeks. Give him lots of rest, without humiliating him. Play him sparingly, against flatter offensive teams, just as you would with a fragile but promising rookie. Don't come close to asking him to steal games or be the team's difference-maker. Then, if he's been looking consistently good in that role, slowly move him back into a 1A position, alternating with Huet for a while...and if he succeeds there, finally back to #1.

Baby steps. We have a good backup, and we should take advantage of that to give Theodore some serious time to rediscover his game and his confidence.

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I blame Bob Gainey. He needs to stand up for Theodore like he did Brisebois. Theodore is struggling right now and doesn't need the added pressure of fans booing him everytime he takes to the ice.

Is that really helping any? Is that going to help him regain his form? No.

I challenge Bob Gainey to stand up and defend Jose Theodore. Show some confidence in a guy who has no confidence in himself right now. Even if he is planning on trading him. Protect your team buddy.

First of all Gainey gave the guy what? only 4.5 million a year for the next 4 years WOW!!!!! That is standing up for a guy and showing confidence in itself.

1.Gainey fired Julien before he said anything about Theo. Even though Julien had given up on him.

TSN article " When he replaced the fired Claude Julien behind the bench two weeks ago, coach and general manager Bob Gainey's first move was to overturn a decision to start backup Cristobal Huet against San Jose and put Theodore in goal."

Sports net article

And, as it turns out, Claude Julien wasn't the problem. The entire league, including the guy who fired him, knew that. But Bob Gainey pulled the trigger anyway.

Tsn article-

After being benched in back-to-back games by Julien, Theodore started for the third game in a row and made 27 saves. Theodore's record dropped to 16-12-5.

gazzette-

He said he was feeling confident after the win in Toronto and Gainey agreed with the goalie's contention that "I made the big stops when we needed them. But we have to win as a team."

Tsn article .

"I had a feeling about Jose," Gainey said when asked why he put him back in after starting backup Cristobal Huet for two straight. "A couple of weeks ago Jose came in and played real well in back-to-back wins for us. And we got bombed out West in a couple of games and he happened to be in net but it wasn't entirely his fault. But he needed a little time to regroup.

TSN Article ...He was weak on the tying goal as Toronto forced overtime late in the third period, saying later he relaxed because he thought the Leafs had taken a penalty, but Gainey was impressed nonetheless.

TSN article "In Toronto, he gave us the kind of performance we needed," said Gainey. "He made important stops at important times.

and finally "It's not a question of throwing in the towel," said Gainey. "Both he and we need to come up with solutions.

"We have to find something that will bring him closer to the level he has been at before."

Asked if there was a time limit on Theodore's revival, a cautious Gainey only said: "I guess I'd say it's not yet." This after last nights game and a dreadful month and a half.

What more do you want KAOS?

Gainey has all ready done enough and Theo has not responded. Maby Gainey should wear and autographed Jersey with the number 60 on the back. Holding a sign that says THEO RULES..

Is that what protecting your team buddy means? You need to re-think blaming Gainey......boo the hell out Theo because he takes too much of our money considering the performance he gives .......

Plain and simply put.Theo doesn't need to regain his form.....He needs to get his shit together.Period.

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Theodore's play is just pathetic. I can't see any team giving us any value for him, and why trade him if nothing decent can be had in return?

Better to stick it out, and hope he returns to form..if not then this could be one long year.

If not then thsi could be a long 3 years at over 5 Million per...You can take that risk, I 'll take the cap space.

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I blame Bob Gainey. He needs to stand up for Theodore like he did Brisebois.....

Yes you have to show support for your so-called superstar, but I'm not really sure how Gainey could have been any clearer as to exactly how he was showing his support to Theo prior to last nights fiasco.

A/ he put him in back to back games against Carolina after being shelled by them in the first match.

B/ he spoke publically about how he felt about Theo's play in Toronto - all of it basically praising his play in that game.

C/ he reversed Julien's decision and started Theo in his first game behind the bench.

While it hasn't been exactly a ringing endorsement of Theo(and given the circumstances of Theo's perfance that's understanble) there isn't much more he could do, as prior to last nights game against Carolina there hasn't been a lot of booing regarding Theo, if there has been any. With no real public showing of the fans resentment with regards to Theo's poor play Gainey handled it based on the events as they were unfolding. But now the boo-birds have made an appearance and I think that if it continues Gainey will probably be the first to address the fans behaviour (if warranted) just like he did in the Brisebois situation.

And as far as those who suggest trading him for a bag of used pucks goes - I think we already have too many of them on the ice? :wacko:

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Maybe he'll be traded, maybe not, but I can guarantee you that for the guy who will make that decision, the return is far from irrelevant. Maybe it's irrelevant to you, but not Bob.

Fortunately, Gainey doesn't react to the hysteria of fans ("Oh my God, trade Theo for whatever because he sucks and there is no other alternative!!"). The alternatives include waiting for him to regain his form, and while this is happening, making sure he's comfortable at the end of the bench.

Unfortunately for us, THEO regaining his form sitting on the bench (IF he can regain his form at all) will not increase his value. Let's face it, unless he magically starts to play at his 2002 level all of a sudden, his contract isn't worth crap, and BG would while trying to maximize return probably want the additional cap flexibility to play with in the offseason.

I do however, think that most everyone who assumes he will regain his form is making a HUGE assumption.

And i don't need to say what assuming does do i?

It makes an ass out of you and me.

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B)-->

QUOTE(David B @ Feb 1 2006, 03:09 PM) 75202[/snapback]

Come on man, I started a new thread for this because not everyone will look in this beat horse and it's pretty funny even as a Habs fan.

sorry about that... I merged it cause I've been merging threads left and right for the last few days as people have basically repeated threads a ton between all the trade rumours and the theo threads. I also stuck this here simply because it wasnt clear from the title that this was a joke thread instead of an actual trade report.

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Unfortunately for us, THEO regaining his form sitting on the bench (IF he can regain his form at all) will not increase his value. Let's face it, unless he magically starts to play at his 2002 level all of a sudden, his contract isn't worth crap, and BG would while trying to maximize return probably want the additional cap flexibility to play with in the offseason.

I do however, think that most everyone who assumes he will regain his form is making a HUGE assumption.

And i don't need to say what assuming does do i?

It makes an ass out of you and me.

Well, you didn't need to say it, but you did anyway (before I could answer!).

Yes, it's an assumption. But, he's played better than this his entire career - he's never been this bad. Chances are, at some point he'll start playing at least a little bit better. It couldn't get worse...?

I didn't explain myself well regarding sitting Theo. You're right, we would have to play him eventually to show his regained form and increase his value. I agree with what Chicoutimi Cuke had to say - let him sit for awhile, work hard with Rollie in practice, then bring him along slowly. His problem is 90% confidence, 10% ability.

I still can't agree that you would necessarily be able to swing a deal involving Theo right now that frees up much cap space. Cap room is precious, and no team will invest so much of it in an underperforming goalie. There is a slight chance that a team would trade for him if they could unload their own underperforming, overpaid player... but it's slight. Neither team would be accomplishing much. I'd go so far as to say that likely the only way Theo could be moved is if the Habs took a net cap hit - maybe taking a couple of overpaid players off somebody else.

Gainey's hands are tied until Theo starts performing.

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