This could be the greatest.......

[GHT120]

22 minutes ago, TurdBurglar said:

Yeah, but my point was Gainey let him walk to FA for nothing.  If there wasn't any intention to resign him, they should have dumped him at the deadline to get some capital back.  It was quite obvious that off season that they were entering a rebuild, which isn't something that was decided after the season was over.

Habs were second in the Northeast in 2008/09 (albeit a first-round loser), so no way they were trading away anyone at the deadline.

[TurdBurglar]

16 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

Habs were second in the Northeast in 2008/09 (albeit a first-round loser), so no way they were trading away anyone at the deadline.

Second in the NE meant nothing then, it was prior to the playoff format change in 2014.  They were a bubble team that finished 8th in the east and made the playoffs on a tiebreaker.  Nothing about that situation screams they shouldn't trade valuable assets to enter the rebuild they were entering.  Instead Gainey actually did the opposite and traded assets to get rentals, then let everyone walk.  Started his own rebuild with even less assets.

[GHT120]

33 minutes ago, TurdBurglar said:

Second in the NE meant nothing then, it was prior to the playoff format change in 2014.  They were a bubble team that finished 8th in the east and made the playoffs on a tiebreaker.  Nothing about that situation screams they shouldn't trade valuable assets to enter the rebuild they were entering.  Instead Gainey actually did the opposite and traded assets to get rentals, then let everyone walk.  Started his own rebuild with even less assets.

FEW teams in a playoff position trade assets at the deadline

 

[Commandant]

The 2009 team.was fighting for 1st overall in January.  Yes they finished 8th after a bad second half slump that saw Carbo fired, and Gainey take over behind the bench. 

 

This was after 2008 when the team was 1st in the East and looked to push forward.

 

They were never trading away UFAs in 2009 at the deadline.

[hab29RETIRED]

4 hours ago, TurdBurglar said:

Yeah, but my point was Gainey let him walk to FA for nothing.  If there wasn't any intention to resign him, they should have dumped him at the deadline to get some capital back.  It was quite obvious that off season that they were entering a rebuild, which isn't something that was decided after the season was over.

Don't forget. Not trading Souray.

[TurdBurglar]

My whole point was you don't let that much talent walk for free to enter a rebuild, now it's spiraling to an argument over the 2008-2009 season. 

[Commandant]

1 hour ago, TurdBurglar said:

My whole point was you don't let that much talent walk for free to enter a rebuild, now it's spiraling to an argument over the 2008-2009 season. 

 

The 2009 summer plan wasnt to rebuild though. 

 

It was only after Gainey went behind the bench, that he decided to let those players walk. 

 

And the money he was going to spend re-signing them, was spent on trading for Gomez and signing Gionta and Cammalleri.  And that team immediately went to the Conference final (even with their best player, Andre Markov, injured)

 

So to call it a rebuild isn't exactly what happened. 

[REV-G]

On 8/24/2024 at 4:02 PM, DON said:

ditto

 

We are putting horse before cart, lots of good stuff 'may' happen but wont.

Will be several good prospects who wont pan out as hoped, as always.

Hutson is dandy offensively, but even Quinn Hughes seemed to get outmuscled in playoffs around his own net and he is better skater than Hutson with 5 NHL seasons under his belt, so who knows how he will handle NHL forecheckers (he seemed to try and pick-pocket NCAA forecheckers and not get into physical fight for pucks or take a hit to make a play.

Team needs more offense and better defense and seem a long way from where want to be.

 

I guess i will reserve judgement for when see how plays out over next few years, but I cant complain about new Mgmt and very curious how numerous young players (like Beck, Mailloux, Reinbacher, Roy, Engstrom, Kapanen) do in pre-season.

 

BTW, the horse always goes before the cart!! 

[REV-G]

On 8/24/2024 at 7:36 PM, Commandant said:

35 years. 

 

I think this team, and this league is so historic that for anything to be the best ever, we need to see the results.  its way to premature for best ever conversations. 

 

Most of these probably need multiple Cup wins, lets make the playoffs and win a few rounds before its even a discussion.... 

 

I hate to as it, cause I like you Rev-G, but this thread has the same kinda feel as many Leafs Fan type "best ever" or "this is our year" kinda posts.  I get being optimistic but Best of all Time discussions is a lot further than I'm willing to go. 

I understand what you're saying. I did preface it by saying this was a thread for the dog days of summer, for a Habs fan, and it was also a glass half full approach, so it was more of an optimistic, interesting read, things are looking good approach that probably would generate some comments and observations. Nothing too serious. But the comparison to a Leafs fan....I crossed the line if that's true!!  

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

1 hour ago, Commandant said:

And the money he was going to spend re-signing them, was spent on trading for Gomez and signing Gionta and Cammalleri.  And that team immediately went to the Conference final (even with their best player, Andre Markov, injured)

 

 

Gomez was a brutal trade but Cammalleri had a phenomenal playoff (led all players in goals) and carried that team in the playoffs. They weren't that good in the regular season, actually gave up more goals than they scored, but snuck into the playoffs and went on an unexpected run. 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

1 hour ago, REV-G said:

I understand what you're saying. I did preface it by saying this was a thread for the dog days of summer, for a Habs fan, and it was also a glass half full approach, so it was more of an optimistic, interesting read, things are looking good approach that probably would generate some comments and observations. Nothing too serious. But the comparison to a Leafs fan....I crossed the line if that's true!!  

 

Fair point, it is the dog days of summer and not too much to get excited about until training camp  (don't expect any more trades) so it was a very good attempt to generate some discussion. 

[hab29RETIRED]

34 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

Gomez was a brutal trade but Cammalleri had a phenomenal playoff (led all players in goals) and carried that team in the playoffs. They weren't that good in the regular season, actually gave up more goals than they scored, but snuck into the playoffs and went on an unexpected run. 

Gomez was not just brutal, but crippled the chance for a true rebuild where we could have had three guys - McDonough, Pactioretty and Subban as our core along with Price. The McDomough trade was the same bonehead type of move like the Sergechev trade - although McDomough was the better player, and Gomez had the better track record. An equivalent to that type of trade today would be trading Hutson for Huberdeau.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

36 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Gomez was not just brutal, but crippled the chance for a true rebuild where we could have had three guys - McDonough, Pactioretty and Subban as our core along with Price. The McDomough trade was the same bonehead type of move like the Sergechev trade - although McDomough was the better player, and Gomez had the better track record. An equivalent to that type of trade today would be trading Hutson for Huberdeau.

 

Of all the trades made by Montreal GM's since I have been a fan (a long time) the Gomez trade is the biggest head shaker for me. At the time Gomez's contract was 7.35 Million, salary cap was 56.8 million. His contract was 13% of the Habs market cap. The equivalent today would be about 11 Million (your Hutson, Huberdeau comparison is a good one). Gomez scored 58 points the year before and was turning 30. Gomez's contract should have had negative value but NO Gainey threw in their best defense prospect and a good two way forward in Higgins. That trade was absolute sheer lunacy!!!

 

Sometimes trades turn out badly but you can understand the thinking at the time. At least I could understand the rationale behind the Drouin-Sergachev trade, Drouin scored 21 goals early in his career with Tampa, was still only 21 or 22, drafted 3rd overall and looked like a top 6 forward, Sergachev at the time was a good prospect. The trade  turned out badly but at the time I could see the reasoning behind it.  The Gomez trade was horrible right from the start, 13% of  your market cap for a 60 point, 30 year old centre!!  In my opinion the worst trade by a Montreal GM I can remember.  Just an awful trade!!

[JoeLassister]

4 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

The 2009 summer plan wasnt to rebuild though. 

 

It was only after Gainey went behind the bench, that he decided to let those players walk. 

 

And the money he was going to spend re-signing them, was spent on trading for Gomez and signing Gionta and Cammalleri.  And that team immediately went to the Conference final (even with their best player, Andre Markov, injured)

 

So to call it a rebuild isn't exactly what happened. 

Thank you.  Gainey never initiated a rebuild by letting UFA walk and signing/trading for those vets.

[Commandant]

2 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

Gomez was a brutal trade but Cammalleri had a phenomenal playoff (led all players in goals) and carried that team in the playoffs. They weren't that good in the regular season, actually gave up more goals than they scored, but snuck into the playoffs and went on an unexpected run. 

 

All of which is true, but acquiring those 3 players is not "going into a rebuild" is my point. 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

On 8/25/2024 at 5:45 PM, Commandant said:

The 2009 team.was fighting for 1st overall in January.  Yes they finished 8th after a bad second half slump that saw Carbo fired, and Gainey take over behind the bench. 

 

This was after 2008 when the team was 1st in the East and looked to push forward.

 

They were never trading away UFAs in 2009 at the deadline.

 

Yes indeed. This is what bugs me about tankist/asset-management-obssessed fans sometimes…I mean, NO organization that had just finished 2nd overall the previous season and had a strong first half and was viewed as an emerging contender would trade away key players at the deadline. Gainey Rebuild 1.0 had been predicated on contending in the 100th Anniversary Year. And until Markov and Lang went down, it looked as though we had a chance. Like any GM, he tried to paper over those injuries, but it didn’t work out. 

 

He let most of the impending UFAs walk without making a serious push to re-sign them…I’ve often thought that was because, once he went behind the bench, he realized that the core was rotten, that player development had been a total bust, and decided to “rebuild” (I use the term advisedly) with UFAs. Personally, I think of that as Gainey 2.0, the astonishing reconstruction of the entire core via a big trade (Gomez, sigh) and running the table on UFAs.

 

21 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Don't forget. Not trading Souray.

 

This was a decision that infuriated me at the time. Souray was at peak value - king’s ransom stuff - and we had a borderline team that, even if it made the playoffs, was not taken seriously by anyone as a potential contender. Now THAT is when you trade a guy at his absolute pinnacle of value for maximum return. Instead, bafflingly, he traded Huet and basically threw Price to the wolves. Yeah. That was weird.

[Commandant]

45 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Yes indeed. This is what bugs me about tankist/asset-management-obssessed fans sometimes…I mean, NO organization that had just finished 2nd overall the previous season and had a strong first half and was viewed as an emerging contender would trade away key players at the deadline. Gainey Rebuild 1.0 had been predicated on contending in the 100th Anniversary Year. And until Markov and Lang went down, it looked as though we had a chance. Like any GM, he tried to paper over those injuries, but it didn’t work out. 

 

He let most of the impending UFAs walk without making a serious push to re-sign them…I’ve often thought that was because, once he went behind the bench, he realized that the core was rotten, that player development had been a total bust, and decided to “rebuild” (I use the term advisedly) with UFAs. Personally, I think of that as Gainey 2.0, the astonishing reconstruction of the entire core via a big trade (Gomez, sigh) and running the table on UFAs.

 

 

This was a decision that infuriated me at the time. Souray was at peak value - king’s ransom stuff - and we had a borderline team that, even if it made the playoffs, was not taken seriously by anyone as a potential contender. Now THAT is when you trade a guy at his absolute pinnacle of value for maximum return. Instead, bafflingly, he traded Huet and basically threw Price to the wolves. Yeah. That was weird.

 

Souray left as a free agent the year before Huet/Price.   That was the 07 team that went to the last weekend with a chance to make the playoffs and took the loss to the Leafs to miss out. The Leafs would lose their place on a tiebreaker to the Isles the next day (we would have got in if we beat the Leafs and the Isles game wouldn't have mattered). 

 

In 2008, Huet was traded and the net given to price in the year the Habs finished 2nd overall. 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

30 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Souray left as a free agent the year before Huet/Price.   That was the 07 team that went to the last weekend with a chance to make the playoffs and took the loss to the Leafs to miss out. The Leafs would lose their place on a tiebreaker to the Isles the next day (we would have got in if we beat the Leafs and the Isles game wouldn't have mattered). 

 

In 2008, Huet was traded and the net given to price in the year the Habs finished 2nd overall. 

 

Right right right. Once again my memory is fuzzy. However, the basic critique still applies; in fact, it applies doubly. He KEPT Souray when we had no chance (07) but TRADED Huet when we did (08). He managed to get it exactly backwards. I remember a presser where he quite strenuously defended trading Huet on grounds of asset-maximization. I was like...huh?!?

[Commandant]

I still believe he traded Huet cause he thought he was getting Hossa and Hedberg out of Atlanta, and that fell through and Hossa went to Pittsburgh with Dupuis and Colby Armstrong as throw ins.  Atlanta wanted to use the Hossa trade to dump some other players and money, and Gainey thought he was taking a goalie in the deal. 

 

Obviously i can't prove this, but its my belief on why he traded Huet when he did. 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

5 minutes ago, Commandant said:

I still believe he traded Huet cause he thought he was getting Hossa and Hedberg out of Atlanta, and that fell through and Hossa went to Pittsburgh with Dupuis and Colby Armstrong as throw ins.  Atlanta wanted to use the Hossa trade to dump some other players and money, and Gainey thought he was taking a goalie in the deal. 

 

Obviously i can't prove this, but its my belief on why he traded Huet when he did. 

 

Well, at least that would mean he wasn't bananas. Just a victim of a deal that collapsed at the last moment.

 

I recall being brutally disappointed we didn't get Hossa at the time.

[hab29RETIRED]

On 8/26/2024 at 1:09 PM, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

Of all the trades made by Montreal GM's since I have been a fan (a long time) the Gomez trade is the biggest head shaker for me. At the time Gomez's contract was 7.35 Million, salary cap was 56.8 million. His contract was 13% of the Habs market cap. The equivalent today would be about 11 Million (your Hutson, Huberdeau comparison is a good one). Gomez scored 58 points the year before and was turning 30. Gomez's contract should have had negative value but NO Gainey threw in their best defense prospect and a good two way forward in Higgins. That trade was absolute sheer lunacy!!!

 

Sometimes trades turn out badly but you can understand the thinking at the time. At least I could understand the rationale behind the Drouin-Sergachev trade, Drouin scored 21 goals early in his career with Tampa, was still only 21 or 22, drafted 3rd overall and looked like a top 6 forward, Sergachev at the time was a good prospect. The trade  turned out badly but at the time I could see the reasoning behind it.  The Gomez trade was horrible right from the start, 13% of  your market cap for a 60 point, 30 year old centre!!  In my opinion the worst trade by a Montreal GM I can remember.  Just an awful trade!!

Umm, there was this trade I think might be a wee bit worse. Trading two time Conn Smythe winner Roy because Tremblay is a jackass.

[brindavis]

So this will be just my 25th season as a Habs fan, after living in Montreal in 2000/01, so for me cups are things that live in my kitchen. I started with a team with massive injuries, starting Juha Lind and Patrick Poulin as 2nd line wingers 🤦‍♂️. So I can offer a slightly different perspective I suppose.

 

Who can predict the future, but the key phrase for me that has come through in buckets since Gorton & Hughes took over is humble professionalism. Their approach is measured and has less bluster than Bergeron era, less of the chaos of the Gauthier era and less of the legacy expectations of the Gainey era.
 

Gone is the lack of respect that these eras had towards players and their families, now sensible conversations are had before trades, players know where they stand and don’t get traded in between periods. They have made Montreal a desirable workplace and at the end of the day, that is what it is a workplace. I have never blamed stars staying away from Montreal because it was terrible workplace, not because of the taxes, but because players were commodities.

 

i don’t know whether the future will bring cups or not, but I sat on a subbed in Greece looking forward to October like never before. 🔵⚪️🔴

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

8 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Umm, there was this trade I think might be a wee bit worse. Trading two time Conn Smythe winner Roy because Tremblay is a jackass.

 

I don't think it was worse. At least Rucinsky scored 20 + goals 4 times for the Habs, Thibeault had a few good years Kovalenko was a bust although he did score 17 his 1st year. For 13% of the salary cap Gomez scored a total of 21 goals in his  3 years with the Habs. And they gave up McDonagh and Higgins for the privilege of taking on Gomez and his contract. 

 

Another difference, we would all agree Houle was in over his head as a GM, had a gun put to his head by Roy (we may never know all the details) and perhaps made the best trade he could at the time. Gainey was an experienced GM, there was absolutely no excuse for taking on that albatross of a contract AND giving up McDonagh and Higgins. I don't know what Gainey was thinking. In the world of the salary cap, an absolutely horrendous trade. 

 

 

 

 

[Commandant]

Counterpoint.

 

Roy was a Hall of Famer and one of the best goalies of all time, still in his prime.

 

Nothing of the sort was given up in the Gomez trade.  

 

Roy was literally franchise changing and won two cups and a conn smythe in Colorado.  The Rangers didnt win anything 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

The Gomez trade was bad, for sure, because McDonagh blossomed and because Gomez aged out early. We took all the risk in that deal and got burned. I agree that the Roy trade was world-historically bad - trading an all-time great player (plus Mike Keane, FFS) for an inferior goalie and mediocre forwards. God help us all. Gomez was merely a terrible deal; Roy was catastrophic.

 

5 hours ago, brindavis said:

So this will be just my 25th season as a Habs fan, after living in Montreal in 2000/01, so for me cups are things that live in my kitchen. I started with a team with massive injuries, starting Juha Lind and Patrick Poulin as 2nd line wingers 🤦‍♂️. So I can offer a slightly different perspective I suppose.

 

Who can predict the future, but the key phrase for me that has come through in buckets since Gorton & Hughes took over is humble professionalism. Their approach is measured and has less bluster than Bergeron era, less of the chaos of the Gauthier era and less of the legacy expectations of the Gainey era.
 

Gone is the lack of respect that these eras had towards players and their families, now sensible conversations are had before trades, players know where they stand and don’t get traded in between periods. They have made Montreal a desirable workplace and at the end of the day, that is what it is a workplace. I have never blamed stars staying away from Montreal because it was terrible workplace, not because of the taxes, but because players were commodities.

 

i don’t know whether the future will bring cups or not, but I sat on a subbed in Greece looking forward to October like never before. 🔵⚪️🔴

 

Interesting take for sure. In terms of ‘professionalism,’ it seems to me that Gainey was very much like Hughes *stylistically:* businesslike, professional - a serious man who commanded respect and accorded it to others. He restored an organization that had been shattered and put it back on a professional footing (building on the foundation lain by the forgotten, but underrated, Andre Savard). On the other hand, for whatever reason Gainey seemed at a loss when it came to player development and he made the Gomez and Ribeiro trades, both major, terrible moves. HuGo seem to be avoiding these traps - so far.

 

Goat and MB acted like egomaniacs. Very different types of egomaniacs, but egomaniacs nevertheless. And - as is usually the case when the boss lets his ego get in the way of business - the organization suffered in consequence.