BTH
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Posts posted by BTH
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I actually thought of Polak and went to look up his salary but I only found the old salary of 1.2M, didn't realize he had been re-signed. I'm surprised he got that little.
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For two years, I do.
I wonder if there are any comparable players around the league; an RFA with several seasons behind him to prove he's a solid defensive second pairing d-man on his team. Most second pairing d-man at that age are offensive-minded.
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I personnaly think Gorges will notch 2,750,000$ as his cap hit.
You think he can only get 500K more than Gill?
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Gorges: 3.5 x 3 or 4.
Pacioretty: I put between 1.5-2 because I think he'll get a two year deal.
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funny how other organizations do get their players to commit and by doing, are able to buy the UFA years from their players at cheaper rates and its funny how other teams are able to get their players to take home town discount as RFA. It's also no coincidence that those organizations are now the successful ones, rather then being the middle of the road team the habs have been for far too long. Chicago signed their 2 stars up front and 2 big dmen to long term commitments at a much more reasonable rates then they would cost if they hit UFA. Philly - Ditto, Detroit - Ditto, Vancouver - Ditto. Had Tallon not screwed up his RFA tendersheets at the deadline and bid against himself for Huet and Campbell, the hawks would have be the class of the league right now - perfect example of how tanking for so long at the death of a horrible owner can turn a franchise around. Had Philly not been so stupid and signed a real goalie three years ago, they would also have been a killer team in the playoffs given the guys the have locked up.
Successful organizations with a long-term view are cognizant of locking up their assets. These organizations make a commitment to the player and in return their players have taken less money then would have been available on the open market. If you sign your young prized assets, best case scenerio is you have guys signed at a discount from market rates. Worst case is that you proabably still have a movable asset - as long as you don't sign players to stupid Gomez/Redden/Drury/Horcoff kind of deals.
The habs continue with one year deals and IMO that puts more pressure on the player and serves as a distraction to both the player and the team. Then when we lose our guys to UFA's we end up trading our #2 picks to fill holes that wouldn't have been there (i.e. Streit), had they locked up guys before they hit UFA status. Right now we have an oppertunity with young guys like Subban/MaxPac/Price/Eller to have that closeness within the team and these guys may be willing to take less. You don't think Zetterberg/Datszyk/Holmstrom/Franzen couldn't have gotten more if they went to the open market?
With AK46, I think the situation was probably more the organization not wanting to offer him an increase - I'm basing this more on how little JM used AK46 on the PP, shifted him around the lineup for mistakes then most other non-performing front line players and had a guy who scored 2 PP goals all year and another scrub with no hands a regular fixture on the PP, as well as the flippant comments JM made when AK46 got off to a hot start. Instead of trying to be more apprecaitive of his play and being more positive in the media, was dismissive and commented that it is a contract year. I know if I made that kind of comment to one my high performing staff members, they'd be pretty pissed, so why would you expect a pro athelete to be any different???
Lastly, if the habs signed AK46 for $4m-$4.25M 4 years and he scores 25 goals/year and brings his physical game I'd be satisfied - to me that is the worst case scenerio for AK46, as he has become a much more complete player and I really don't get the hate for him by some on this forum. How many people were complaining about Gionta and Cammy when they weren't producing and seemed to be in neutral for parts of the season (Cammy in particular?) How many were demanding they be moved. Gomez and Cammy have taken as many bonehead penalties as AK46 has and made a lot of just dumb plays during the stretches that they struggled (in Gomez's case that was most of the season).
Anyway, I really think that he is going to break out to be a 30-35 goal scorer, in which case you would have gotten a bargain, now we'll probably see another guy walk away for nothing.
Those other teams locked up their stars long term. Not their 5th/6th forwards. Our stars will be signed long term too, not Kostitsyn though.
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BTH, they do count frames. This was confirmed by, I think, Eric Duhatschek. I don't object to that in principle, but dlbalr's post exposes the sheer absurdity of the whole business - as though a player is supposed to understand the difference between a fraction of a second when deciding to lay a hit. Dlbalr's post reads like satire. You may as well expect players to calculate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Players are completely confused about what is a suspendable or even a legal hit and what isn't. And I believe Rome when he says he was just 'finishing his check' and thought it was a hockey play. Of course he did; he grew up watching Scott Stevens get hailed as a hero for doing exactly that. Like every other player, he's been trained relentlessly in an ethos of 'punishing the opposition' and 'finishing your check' as an absolute, and I'll bet you he has never once heard a coach say something like, 'finish your check but make sure the check is CLEAN.' And that's because the league has utterly failed to establish two key principles: first, what is and is not a clean hit; and second, that ONLY clean hits are acceptable.
In a weird way, Rome is a victim here too. He has been deprived of his once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to play in a Stanley Cup Final by a completely arbitrary disciplinary system.
It makes sense to count frames but I'm surprised Campbell never brought up the number of frames when giving the reasoning behind his decision. It would make the decision sound less arbitrary.
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Brian, the NHL actually counts frames to determine whether somebody should be suspended?
Watch this and tell me there is a difference between what Stevens did to Kariya and Rome did to Horton.
Gomez seems like such a nerd in that video.
Here is another similar one:
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Good point.
Plus, would be funny that a guy in the All time top 25 for penalty minutes head the discipline committee. I like him, but it would seem funny no matter what. It's like if someone who spent lots of time in jail ends up being head justice of the supreme court. Nothing to help improve the leagues' image IMO
Has Shanahan ever been suspended? I think all his penalty minutes were legal so I don't see anything hypocritical here.
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Stats don't tell the whole story, I mean I have no idea, but if he truly is a bad teammate then he is a big risk.
Stats don't tell the whole story but rumours do?
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I can't believe 28 people voted yes. Just because Jagr did well in the World Championship(where most NHLers aren't even playing) Doesn't mean he could keep this kind of pace up for an entire season. Let's not forget he's 39 years old and is demanding 2 million$ per season.
The 2 million$ is ok,it's the fact that he's 39 and has slowed down considerable over the past 2-3 seasons that worries me.
Thankfully, the Habs have said they aren't interested in him. Let's not forget that Jagr is notorious for being a cancer in the locker room.
Travis Moen makes 1.5M. How is 2M for Jagr a risk? He's been a point per game player in the KHL since leaving the NHL.
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I'm obviously not a fan of Campbell and Shanahan impressed me with his appearance on RDS this year.
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I feel like our team next season will be almost identical.
ALL OF:
Markov at - ~4.5M
Gorges at 3.5M
Gill at 2.15M
Picard at 660K
ONE OF:
Wisniewski at 4.25M
Hamrlik at 3M
Bieksa/X at 3.5M
Halpern is either retained at the same rate or replaced with a similar player.
Ditto Auld.
Gomez stays.
Kostitsyn re-signs for something similar, maybe a slight raise.
Pouliot probably gets traded for a Bournival.
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We had an injury list a mile long that was only growing. Even if we got past Boston, I'm not sure we would have made it out of round 2 vs WSH.
I don't think our chances of making the ECF was all that great.
Nobody can be sure, but that a team I consider to be our equal got this far shows that Montreal had a chance this year.
They beat Washington last year when the odds were much worse. The difference between Montreal and a Cup final this year may very well have been injuries.
Not to say that I am unhappy with Jacques Martin, but I often think what could have been had Boucher became the next coach of the Canadiens. Would they have finished higher in the standings this year? What about the next few years? Would I actually enjoy watching the coach's media address? We all know Martin is as dry as a Nun's vagina. I just think that it would have been nice to have some personality behind the bench. And again, I reiterate that I am happy with what Martin has done so far, an East final and a game 7 overtime loss are excellent results considering. I compare it to having a crush on a really beautiful girl who is absolutely perfect for you. However, she is in a relationship with some loser and it's just a matter of time before it ends. In the meantime, you find a really great girl who has a good job and takes care of the house, so you marry her. Then during your marriage, the other girl becomes available and you sit there and always think about what could have been with her. And then a friend will say, if it's meant to be, it's meant to be...
That pretty much sums it up but I'm confident that Boucher will coach for the Habs one day. We'll just get him when he's more experienced.
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I assume that the potential to cause injury to Vancouver's top players would be Boston's advantage over Tampa.
This Boston run is so frustrating in that it clearly shows we could've won the East this year if we could've gotten one lucky break in an OT. Like Cammalleri not hitting the back of Chara's legs on that open net. You know, the overtime after the first one when Michael Ryder made a save on an open net.
That's what I was thinking. Boston's success shows how realistic Montreal's chances were.
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Damn 6 would be overpaying, I say next years playoffs will determine Prices salary more then the regular season. Price was brilliant this year, but we shouldn't empty the bank because a good season. I would like to see his next contact take him too ufa making 4 tops, By then we will have a large enough sample size to see what kind of goalie he will be.
I don't think any goalie is worth 6M but there's no chance Montreal lets Price walk. He might be able to demand that much. I don't know if any goalie in the league will have more bargaining power.
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Didn't Halak get 4.75 for 4 years, that sounds good for price 4.5-4.75 for 4 or 5 years. I use Halak because he is much better the MA Fleury.
Nah, it was 3.75 for Halak.
I could even see Price getting 6 if he has another great season.
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The problem is, that's basically what you've got as the 2nd line moving forward with Gomez gone in your scenario. That's certainly good 3rd line scoring but obviously would be problematic as a 2nd line. And because you've got 20+ million in the defence, there's no room to bring in another top-6 forward, short of the possible Gomez replacement you cite.
And just to try and get this back on topic, on the subject of possible hometown discounts that we hope Markov will give the Habs, I suspect that won't be the case with Yemelin.
Well, second line would be Pacioretty-cheaper Gomez clone-Kostitsyn while Eller and Desharnais are on the third line. Of the three of them, Max Pac is the one that already seems to be a top 6 forward and only needs to prove that he wasn't permanently damaged by his injury. If Desharnais or Eller improve enough over the upcoming season, one of them might even become the Gomez replacement in the following year, saving 7 million to spend elsewhere. These guys already are legitimate top 9 players that all played their best hockey at the end of their years. With a 2011-2012 season under their belt, I do think it's pretty much a guarantee that all three will still be solid top 9 players in the 2012-2013 season. Yemelin is a much bigger question mark than these three because they've already shown us what they can do in the NHL, even if they haven't reached their full potential.
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I know I'm not ready to make the 2nd assumption yet. I like Eller but at this time, can you say he'll be a good top-2 centre or a good top-9 one? There's a big difference in the distinctions. Can Pacioretty return to form or will he be like Zednik and tail off after a severe injury? Both are legit possibilities. As for Desharnais, is he the player he was in the first 20 games or the one who nearly went a month without a point? All could pan out, none could pan out, or some could pan out. Obviously a guess has to be made but it's far from a certainty either way.
As for dumping Gomez, there's no guarantee that makes you better either if you wind up overpaying to bring another free agent in who produces similar results.
Some top 9 players are secondary scorers. Even if those 3 wind up with 10 goals, 30 points a season from the third line, something I'm confident won't be the case, that is still good secondary scoring from the third line at a cheap price. Anyway, if those three turn out to be busts then the Habs are going to remain a bubble team either way. Letting Wisniewski go and investing in marginally better third liners will hardly change that. Montreal's Cup window is opening due to players like those three who have the potential to perform above their salaries. If they bust, then they bust, and the Cup window closes anyway.
If you replace Gomez with a similar player that is say, 2M cheaper (still overpaid), that just means Montreal has 2M more to invest in their forwards (Jagr
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There are two key assumptions to make from that:
1) They will find a way to move Gomez - is it possible with the backloaded deal? Sure, but it's not as if he's the only player in the league with a frontloaded deal, there will be competition from other teams to unload their big tickets as well. It's also hard to fathom ownership greenlighting an AHL burial for 2012-13 already.
2) The players you have listed have to become the secondary core this team has lacked in terms of scoring. It stands to reason that Eller, Desharnais, and Pacioretty will have cap hits above $1.25 million (average salary with 10 million and 8 roster spots) while Leblanc will come in mere thousands under that as well. It doesn't leave any room at all for external help, at least for external players who want a 7-figure salary.
I think both assumptions, though clearly ideal, are hard to make within the next 6 weeks. That's why I think one of the two will go should both insist on multi-year deals.
I think the second assumption is an easy one to make.
The first one is a gamble but that is how the successful teams have been run during the cap era: bring in the players you want and then deal with the cap afterward. It's a bold move but it pretty much ensures that Montreal will have one of the better line ups in the league for the next while.
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Regardless, there's him to note as well as other pending RFA's that will get raises between now and then. Here's a quickie version of the numbers (note rough approximations) assuming both Markov/Wisniewski sign multi year deals, hypothesizing a 62 M cap in 2 years time (I think the owners will be able to curtail the annual increases in the pending CBA):
Goalies: 6 mil (Let's say Price 5, backup 1)
Defence: ~22 mil (Markov, Wisniewski combined for 10.5, Subban at 3.5, Gorges at 2.75, 3 others at 5 combined which likely would include an entry level player)
This leaves give or take $34 million for the forwards, less if you want to have a cushion so let's say 33. Already, 23.4 of that is committed to Gomez, Gionta, Cammalleri, and Plekanec. This leaves about 10 million for 9 other forwards. If you give Kostitsyn a multi year pact for around 4 (what it'd take to get him to sign one), you're now down to 6 million for 8 forwards. That's not going to work well unless you get 3 or 4 free agents to pull a Paul Kariya with Colorado. That's why I say signing both Wisniewski and Markov beyond next season isn't palatable unless you manage to find a taker for one of the four forwards under contract (and even then that doesn't help much as you'd need a big-ish ticket player to replace him).
Unless the thinking is to sign Markov and Wiz and find a way to get rid of Gomez at the end of the season. His replacement would not make nearly as much as him, so that could leave at least 10 million for the remaining 8 forwards, most of which will be comprised of young players making under 2M: Eller, Desharnais, Pacioretty, White, Pyatt.
It could work, it just depends how bold they are with Gomez.
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It puzzles me how a francise who's farm team is in the final 4 of the AHL playoffs, which should mean they they have the top 4 farm team, thereby the top 4 prospects, could be ranked 20th in prospects? Is this done by the same Torontonian genius' that had Montreal not making the playoffs this year, even healthy? Sorry to break it to them but Montreal contended this year ( with major injury losses) the farm is strong, so they will continue to contend for awhile yet. They can rank them wherever they please, as long as they keep contending at both levels, have the depth to contend when hit with tons of injuries at both levels, and finish their season weeks-months after both of Toronto's entries I am happy.
HF is counting prospects with NHL potential. The best players on AHL teams are often players like Boyd and Dawes that will never be NHL stars.
Montreal's best prospects right now are Palushaj, Leblanc, Tinordi, Kristo. None of them are expected to be stars (more like 2nd liners). They certainly aren't nearly as deep as they used to be.
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well you guys are pretty convincing but what about the team chem? Is he a prima donna or will he be ok?
Who knows? All I know is that he has chemistry with Plekanec.
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i may have to change my opinion I guess I never realized that he is 6 3 and 240 lbs. He plays much smaller I think.
When he has the puck on his stick around the boards, he plays like BGL. I think he could take Pouliot's spot. I wouldn't want to get rid of Kosty or any of our core players for him. I want to ADD him, not replace someone with him.
Halpern and Darche are UFA's, Pouliot is likely done. If we retain Darche:
Cammalleri-Plex-Jagr
Pacioretty-Gomez-Gionta
Darche-Desharnais-Kostitsyn
Moen-Eller-White
Pyatt
Seems to be enough spots to go around.
That is a Cup contending forward group.
Throw in Price and
Markov-Gorges
Subban-Gill
Spacek-Weber/Emelin
Diaz/Picard
and this team is one of the strongest in the league.
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thanks for providing the stats you prove my point 123 pts in 06 71 in 08 and what he did in the khl is not really relevant since it is a second class league. So 4 years ago he had 71 points and this is why we should jump on him. In his day he had awesome talent unfortunately that was yesterday or maybe the day before. This team has all the experience it needs. We are 1 or 2 guys away from being an elite team. Jagr is 1 or 2 steps from retiring.
No one thinks he can score 100 points but he doesn't seem to have fallen off since his 71 point season. When he was a dominant player, he scored 39 points in 32 KHL games. This year he scored 51 in 49. He is more comparable to Lidstrom than Sundin.
Now that all is said and done...
in Habs & Hockey Talk
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We don't know until our team is signed.
Did we have a legitimate chance of winning the Cup this year? Yeah. But if that makes us a contender, there were ten other contenders in the NHL. Montreal is not in the top 5 teams in the NHL, they are borderline top 10.
If they bring back Markov and Wisniewski and stay healthy they could potentially be a heavyweight this season but there are 15-20 teams thinking the same thing every off-season.