Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Fanpuck33_

Illegal Weapons Found in Iraq

Recommended Posts

Originally posted by simonus

Any voucher system that has been offered gives families less money than the average private school tuition. Let us say you get $5,000 for your voucher (pretty good compared to what most proposals offer)... well that St. Simonus' High to which you are referring probably has a tuition running somewhere around $10,000.

The Catholic high school I attened currently charges under $5,000 for tuition, and it is the most expensive religious high school in the Columbus area. There are other more expensive private schools, but they are non-religious. My school was a perfect example of how much better private schools are for students, and not because of low class sizes. Most of my classes had 30 students in them. And my school consistenly averages 200 points higher on than the national average on the SAT and 5 points higher than the national average on the ACT. Class size is the biggest cop-out ever. The key is a challenging curriculum. I am an education major in college, and every resource available stresses the importance of a challenging curriculum, something public schools do not have, as they are more concerned with passing students. One thing I have promised myself is that I will challenge my students.

But I agree, public education in the US is a mess. On a bit of a side note, In some US history books, there is more information on Marilyn Monroe than there is on George Washington. A recent study found that 80% of social studies (ie history, etc) are liberals. Since the majority of them are liberals, it can be presumed that they are involved in the composition of text books. While I know this is a shot in the dark, it is very disturbing, no matter who is responsible for these horrible text books.

One simple solution to all these potential problems is to just not post the ten commandments in the first place. Anyways, considering that Jefferson, Washington, and Franklin were confirmed deists (read atheists) I am not so sure our country was based on the religious merit of these principles anyways.

A good point, but there are so many other issues that are far more important than this. Instead of separating church and state, people are attacking religion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

actually high school professors have little to do all too often with the selection of text books for classes, especially because schools don't buy new textbooks that often so teachers inherit their books. Usually the school board does much of the choosing. Often that choice is more based on state mandates,price and distributor incentives than content. State mandates are something though - like prescriptions against evolution, teaching about the abolitionist component of the civil war, etc.. That county that did the spokes monkey trial even tried to legislate that pie was exactly 3.14. That 80% number really depends how you define liberal - probably not liberal like I'm liberal, I rarely if ever meet americans that are as liberal as myself, certainly not among the faculty at the midwestern public schools that I attended.

That $5,000 figure was hypothetical, if you want to get the actual numbers from the trials please post them. Also post the average SAT marks from charter schools. If you think class size would be the only thing affected by cutting 20-30% of a school's budget I think you are mistaken, that too was an example.

I don't really see this whole attack against religion thing around me. Christianity seems alive and well in this country. Nobody's closing down those schools and many of those stories about people getting kicked out for wearing crosses and the like are largely apocryphal. Anyways, what the hell are people wearing crosses for anyways, it pushes the focus of christianity too much on the resurection instead of the teachings of jesus and jesus himself advised that one ought not wear their phylactaries long - don't advertise your faith. Now, christians don't wear phylactaries, but I think crosses are similar in this case. The whole of jesus' teachings were directed towards man to man conduct and he makes it quite clear that religious piety is defined by good works and charitable interaction (unless you are a calvinist). He also makes quite clear that this is an individual covenant, not one that ought be advertised on your lapel.

Should we spend your tax dollars on statues of mosesor the ten commandments? Should we spend mine? Should we only install those statues in predominantly christian neighbourhoods? Since these statues cost money, maybe we should only post them in predominantly rich neighbourhoods.

Are women who are forced to remove their birkas in ID photos also being attacked? Are they being attacked by the atheistic, pinko left? Are jewish children being attacked when they are told not to wear kippas because the school has a "no hat" policy? Does the new testament, or any catechism, demand the wearing of crosses or the placement of fish drawings on vehicles? Are birkas and kippas mandated? Has anyone asked to ban circumcisions in hospitals? Has anyone ever confiscated your bible? Has anyone ever barred entry to your church? Has anyone ever blown up your church? Have you been made to wear identifying articles of clothing so that you can be easily known to the community? Where is this scarlet 'C'?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Originally posted by simonus

I don't really see this whole attack against religion thing around me. Christianity seems alive and well in this country. . . Those stories about people getting kicked out for wearing crosses and the like are largely apocryphal. . . Are women who are forced to remove their birkas in ID photos also being attacked? Are jewish children being attacked when they are told not to wear kippas because the school has a "no hat" policy? Does the new testament, or any catechism, demand the wearing of crosses or the placement of fish drawings on vehicles? Are birkas and kippas mandated? Has anyone asked to ban circumcisions in hospitals? Has anyone ever confiscated your bible?

People getting fired for wearing crosses is no made up story, I have seen it reported in actual instances. In one instance, the teacher was told to remove the cross or be fired. I think teachers and students alike should be allowed to show their religion. What is so bad about displaying your religion, as long as you aren't trying to force it on others? When you see a yamaka, do you feel threatened by Judaism? I certainly don't. The removal of birkas is a little tougher of an issue. I find it difficult to have a photo ID where somebodyy obscures part of their head. Why would circumcisions be banned in hosptials? People have circumcisions for many non-religious reasons. If I were to have a Bible in a public school, in some areas in the nation I am sure it would be confiscated. Schools are not even allowed to wish students a Merry Christmas. How does this offend Jews, Muslims, etc. I would not be offended if a school official wished everybody a Happy Hanucha (sp error) or mentioned Ramadan. Secularists are trying ver hard to remove religion from everywhere except the Church. They want "one nation under God" removed from the pledge, they want "In God we trust" removed from the currency. If this was a matter of church and state, these never would have existed in the first place. I see such attacks as against religion, not as supporting separation.

Should we spend your tax dollars on statues of mosesor the ten commandments?

Such statues have been prominent for years. No taxpayers are paying for them.

Back to something from earlier, you mentioned how Jefferson, etc. were deists. Deism implies the belief in some sort of god-like phenomenon. Jefferson himself re-wrote the Bible, removing things like miracles, trying to make Jesus and God seem more realistic. This hardly sound like an atheist to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

of course it is atheism. It is atheism for a time when you couldn't be atheist. Jefferson took out the miracles because he didn't believe in the supernatural ability of the trinity. He pulled out the godwork and said "look - aren't these just nice moral parables?"

It is not children wishing each other merry christmas that reasonable people have a problem with, it is when the teacher wishes people merry christmas. It is when the teacher says "come to the front of the class and tell everyone how your family celebrated christmas". I was not raised christian and I personally found these moments quite uncomfortable. BTW - no non-christian is so stupid as to believe that one nation under god has anything to do with theirs. Anyways, why do you want to say the pledge anyways? It was written by a socialist! It didn't even have the under god phrase in it until congress inserted it years later! Why don't you just start celebrating may day?

PS - send me your address and some money, I'm putting up a statue of mohammed ascending to heaven in your town square.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Originally posted by simonus

of course it is atheism. It is atheism for a time when you couldn't be atheist.

Deism is the belief that there is a God, but not a God that acts in this world. To these people, God created the world and set it in motion, and then left it alone, like a clockmaker.

It is not children wishing each other merry christmas that reasonable people have a problem with, it is when the teacher wishes people merry christmas. It is when the teacher says "come to the front of the class and tell everyone how your family celebrated christmas".

If the teacher does not single out only Christian holidays, I see no problem with it. I agree they shouldn't ask how students spent Christmas, but why not ask about Christmas break? School have a break at the end of December because of Christmas, everybody knows this. So what is wrong with calling it Christmas break?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Originally posted by Fanpuck33

If the teacher does not single out only Christian holidays, I see no problem with it. I agree they shouldn't ask how students spent Christmas, but why not ask about Christmas break? School have a break at the end of December because of Christmas, everybody knows this. So what is wrong with calling it Christmas break?

you are very lucky to be in the majority race and the majority religion. I never had a 'christmas' break, no matter what my classmates did. I couldn't be a part of their tree lightings and their gift exchange, nor did I want to. It is quite lonely and at times embarrasing to be exluded like that at school. Children are often not as accepting as some adults are. Of course the teacher singles out christmas, the choir sings "the twelve days of christmas" and "hark, the herald angel sings" etc... I didn't need that stuff around. I didn't want to explain to the conductor that I really didn't want to play in those songs. It was almost as bad to sit out for those songs as it would be to be a part. You have never had to experience that, so you minimize it. Where does one draw the line in incorporating religion into public life? Okay, we put up the ten commandments - do we teach the biblical sex laws in sex ed? How about the dietary laws in health class?

Standard American sociological theory often speaks of the "slippery slope". When people protest gun control they say that next we will be under mashall law with no method of defense. Anti-abortionists say that social security will demand abortions from welfare mothers. Anti-tax activists warn of total taxation. And religious groups warn that the government will confiscate your bible and close your church. Are any of these things likely? No, but we hear variations of these earlier arguments constantly from right-wing commentators. Why am I called ridiculous when my friends and I call for the government and public institutions to not play favourites with any religion by abstaining from making its opinion known.

Question - would the deists beliefs that you have enumerated be considered heretical by any modern church? I'm pretty sure they would. The christian god is not an absentee landlord. Certainly throughout the old and new testament he is quite present. Who delivers the christ? who gives the gift of languages to the apostles? Who strikes down the dietary laws by giving pork to Peter? Who delivered the ten commandments? Was it an absent clockmaker? The deist view is so heretical as to render pascal's wager meaningless. It goes something like this - "No.no,no... don't worry I believe in God, I just don't think it has any direct relevance to our lives or the cosmos." What makes the deist god any different from the atheist's big bang?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Originally posted by simonus

you are very lucky to be in the majority race and the majority religion. I never had a 'christmas' break, no matter what my classmates did. I couldn't be a part of their tree lightings and their gift exchange, nor did I want to. It is quite lonely and at times embarrasing to be exluded like that at school. Children are often not as accepting as some adults are. Of course the teacher singles out christmas, the choir sings "the twelve days of christmas" and "hark, the herald angel sings" etc... I didn't need that stuff around. I didn't want to explain to the conductor that I really didn't want to play in those songs. It was almost as bad to sit out for those songs as it would be to be a part. You have never had to experience that, so you minimize it. Where does one draw the line in incorporating religion into public life? Okay, we put up the ten commandments - do we teach the biblical sex laws in sex ed? How about the dietary laws in health class?

Whether you celebrate Christmas or not, I am sure that during your schooling you got at least a week or two off with the original intention of allowing people to celebrate Christmas. And I beg to differ that about the singing of Christmas carols. In modern public schools, choirs are no longer allowed to sing ant hymns that even border on religious. Christmas, at least in the United States has become more than just a Christian holiday. It is more commercial and secular than it is religious these days.

And of all things, what is so offensive about the Ten Commandments? Aside from putting the Lord God above all others, pretty much every relgion would agree with the teachings, at least to some extent.

And religious groups warn that the government will confiscate your bible and close your church. Are any of these things likely? No, but we hear variations of these earlier arguments constantly from right-wing commentators. Why am I called ridiculous when my friends and I call for the government and public institutions to not play favourites with any religion by abstaining from making its opinion known.

An group that does this is somewhat radical. I do not fear the government closing my church. I don't see how aiding religious groups plays favorites. Any group from any religion would be able to recieve benefits, as long as the conditions are met. How does that promote any particular religions. If a group is feeding the poor, why does it matter if the group is secular or religious?

No.no,no... don't worry I believe in God, I just don't think it has any direct relevance to our lives or the cosmos." What makes the deist god any different from the atheist's big bang?

I am not an expert, but as far as I know, deists believe in an afterlife. Do atheists? I will admit that I have sometimes questioned the existence of God and questioned my faith, but I cannot imagine life without some kind of faith. While I believe in evolution, I wonder about the Big Bang. If there was nothing before it, how did it happen? What caused it to happen? Didn't something have to put it into motion?

And this is kind of a side not, but earlier you mentioned abortion. What are your views on abortion? I am pro-life. I feel that life begins at conception, because if allowed to progress, the fertilzed egg grows into a human, thus abortion ends the beginning of a human life. Even further off the subject, this country has serious issues. Quite often I hear of a mother who kills her infant child be sentenced to less than 2 years in prison. Yet I see similar prison sentences for people who abuse animals. While I don't agree with abusing pets and such, isn't killing an infant human a hell of a lot worse than kicking or even killing a dog?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the ten commandments dont specifically call those who do not follow the "way" evil, but I do follow your point. Fully 30% of the ten commandments are specifically religious in nature. That's a lot of chaff for some wheat.

I agree in theory, fanpuck, that school are not to sing "christmas" songs, but in my experience at public school this was not the case. I went to these schools in the mid nineties, not so long ago. Christmas has the luxury of being secular as long as you don't happen to have been raised christian.

An group that does this is somewhat radical. I do not fear the government closing my church.

I am glad that we agree that right wing groups are unacceptably radical, but their opinions are frequently aired.

I really do not want to step into abortion, but to call for life at conception is a little disingenuous. Most fertilized eggs never reach term, most being disposed of in the next menstrual cycle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the bible is clear that only jews are required to abide by the first three commandments. If you are not of the tribes you are held only to the latter seven. When christianity arose, it took on the mantle of the chosen tribes and thusly held themselves to the first three commandments.

Certainly the first three commandments demand a seperation from the other nations, but it does not consider the other nations evil.

From where did you get your listing of corrolaries for the first commandment? I particularly would insist that there is not complete consensus on your fifth corrolary:

all inordinate and immoderate affections or the setting of our hearts and minds upon other objects.

This is not immediately evident from the bible, it really sounds more like augustine or kempis. People often use that corrolary to find religious backing against adictions. You will often hear this used against the sexually active - in some fundamentalist circles referred to as 'sex addiction'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Originally posted by simonus

I am glad that we agree that right wing groups are unacceptably radical, but their opinions are frequently aired.

Yes, but keep in mind, there are plenty of unacceptably radical liberals out there as well. One writer, I am not sure who, recently wrote: "In Iraq, the media not only fear being shot intentionally by Iraqis, they fear being targeted by US soldiers." That is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

I really do not want to step into abortion, but to call for life at conception is a little disingenuous. Most fertilized eggs never reach term, most being disposed of in the next menstrual cycle.

True, but mentruation is natural, abortion is not. At least late term abortion needs to be stopped. I have seen pitcures of many of the results of late term abortions, and they are enough to make you sick.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

perhaps i miscommunicated in my earlier post.

As far as jews are concerned the first three commandments do not apply to christians because as far as jews are concerned, christians are of the other nations.

Christians hold themselves to the first three as they feel themselves to be heirs to the covenant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...