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Scott462

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Posts posted by Scott462

    Subban traded to Nashville

    in Habs & Hockey Talk

    Posted

    This thread is starting to feel pretty grim.

    A lot of negativity flying around but I'm feeling pretty optimistic about what Weber will bring and looking forward to seeing him play.

    I have said my piece on what I think about what kind of player Weber is and people can make up their own minds

    Subban traded to Nashville

    in Habs & Hockey Talk

    Posted

    Chelios/Savard is probably as close as you'll get when it comes to this and past Habs trades. That at least had this big thing about people believing Chelios was finished.

    Also this whole fighting debate is because I brought up a Predators fan saying he wished Shea Weber defended his goalie more. A poster brought up a moment where Shea Weber did defend. It said nothing to the Predators fans point because he didn't say Shea never did it, but never did it enough. Shea's fighting record is good proof of that. It ballooned from there, even bringing up the Chris Kreider net crashes which he has done to several goalies in the NHL without anyone ever "tuning him up" for it. He crashed Price, Fasth, Fleury, Anderson, Halak, maybe more, and nobody has ever "taught him a lesson for it"

    I hope someone does though.

    I remember being incredibly pissed when Kreider ran Price.

    Hopefully karma comes around

    Subban traded to Nashville

    in Habs & Hockey Talk

    Posted

    The original post doesn't explain it, because the poster only identified reasons why there would be a drop off, he didn't indicate how much of a drop off each of these reasons would create... (or a range of it).... others did that math. No one is denying that playing more dzone starts creates some effect on relative corsi. I am just saying the effect isn't as pronounced as the poster says, and i had the numbers to show it.

    Good night.

    It wasn't just D zone starts it was a combination of: Quality of teammates, Quality of competition and % of D zone starts used together in context that he used to come to his conclusions. He compared past years where Weber had great Corsi and the last four years where he did not and ran a correlation using these stats to shed a little more light on the Weber corsi situation.

    "Given PK put up his highest Relative Corsi numbers the season he played with the strongest Teammates and given how much Weber’s Relative Corsi numbers plummeted over the last four seasons where he played with terrible teammates (and put up his worst Relative Corsi numbers the season he played with the worst teammates), I wondered about the relationship between the two variables. So I just ran correlations for the two variables for all players for each of the last two seasons and, sure enough, I found some reasonably strong correlations (r’s of .45 or so). So quality of teammates seems pretty important for driving Relative Corsi! That’s interesting because some suggest this statistic isolates the extent to which a player individually drives possession. Many have lamented this interpretation, however (see link below for thoughts). I can see why – teammates matter!"

    http://drivingplay.blogspot.ca/2011/09/on-problem-with-corsi-rel.html

    I agree that stats are not the be all end all and that they should be used more often as just a tool not a measuring stick of how one player is better than another, that's not really what I am attempting to do. I am just trying to put the numbers in perspective for the crowd ready to take Weber out to the shed and old yeller his ass before he has even stepped foot on the ice in Montreal.

    Subban traded to Nashville

    in Habs & Hockey Talk

    Posted · Edited by Scott462

    1) You certainly are entitled to think what you want. I'm just saying this is not something I think, this is not an opinion I'm presenting... I'm saying that people have done the research on how much of an effect each of these factors has over 100s and 100s of players, and over multiple seasons, and that research indicates that it doesn't explain the drop. You can think what you want, and thats fine... but I'm telling you that my post isn't based on opinions, its based on numbers and research. Thats the thing with analytics, its not about what people think, the numbers are the numbers.

    You can think there is more to it than the numbers show.

    But at the end of the day.. .going purely on analytics and factoring in all these factors... corsi, qcomp, zstarts, qteam, etc.... even when you factor in multiple things, the numbers show subban ahead.

    2.) You are right, his role changed and this will effect his corsi. The issue is that his corsi has fallen more than what just what it should if there was a role change and teammate change and opponent change and no other factors.

    3.) It depends on what you value in the eye test. Each individual has a different eye test, as we all value different things. If you go by old school factors, clear the crease, tough in the corners, big slap shot. Weber is great at those, so some will say he has a great eye test. If you want a little more than that (and I do) and factor in skating and stickhandling and passing... well then, his eye test is still very good, but you see the reasons for the drop off.

    4.) That the declining number is solely based on external factors and no decline on Weber's part is just not supported when running all the numbers.

    I appreciate the discussion as well, and don't sell yourself short on the intelligence side. I also appreciate that we can disagree without attacking.

    1. Well in regards to the posters research we are discussing it seems like it does account for the drop off.

    2. Disagree with this as well I think the dramatic way he was switched from a heavy offensive role the first four years to a solely defensive one and I'm talking all the hard minutes the other guys don't even come close which was a point the poster raised that maybe some of the other D men on Nashville have better corsi because Weber was shouldering all the tough minutes.

    3. Personally I think he does a lot more than that and I think he has a great first pass and which was pointed out before in the article Weber had great Corsi in this regards for the first four years in Nashville.

    I do agree that we can have a rational discussion without attacking one another, its one of the reason I have always liked this forum was the respective way you can have a discussion. Anyway tis getting a bit late by me, we will have to continue this another day.

    Night

    Subban traded to Nashville

    in Habs & Hockey Talk

    Posted

    You cant expect anyone to read that post to the end do you? You lost me early on, any chance you would have a coles note version for lazy people like me? :tumbleweed:

    Well me and commandant are going back and forth about it and I think I got the jist of the post but honestly I would implore you to give her a read it really is quite insightful.

    Subban traded to Nashville

    in Habs & Hockey Talk

    Posted

    1. Personally I think it does explain the drop off especially when looking at the fact that during the first four years Weber had great corsi while playing with the best teammates, facing tough comp, and enjoying good offensive zone starts. Compared to his last four years having bad corsi while playing with the worst teammates, facing the toughest comp, and having the fewest on his team for offensive zone starts. This will affect the numbers.

    2. No like I said what this shows is that Weber went from being used primarily for an offensive role in the first four years to being used solely for a shut down defensive role which of course will affect his corsi.

    3. Personally I have seen a lot not just around here but in general that people think Weber has a great "eye test" so I think a lot of people will disagree with you there.

    The decline is obviously with the way he has been used while with Nashville over the course of his career, he is 31 and still in his prime.

    I know you are not saying he's garbage but I don't think you are looking at this the right way, I have never said that Weber is better than PK not once. I think they are both elite but have different styles and are used by their teams in different ways. I don't know if I would make the trade personally but that's not my call, I love PK loved him the first time I saw him play but I am also a fan of Weber from his reputation and from the Olympics and him blasting that puck through the net(how cool was that). So personally I think we gave up an amazing D man but we got another stud back in Weber and maybe he fits the system the habs are going for.

    I honestly appreciate our discussions commandant I can tell your a really intelligent guy probably a lot smarter than me..haha

    Cheers mate!

    Subban traded to Nashville

    in Habs & Hockey Talk

    Posted

    I think you are missing the point here though.

    He is comparing and bringing into context the Quality of Competition (REL QoC), Quality of Teammates (REL QoT), and Offensive Zone Start % and using it all together to make an informed opinion on why the Corsi is the way it is.

    Couple that with comparing Webers first four years where he enjoyed great Corsi playing with great teammates, facing tough competition and enjoying a decent amount of offensive zone face offs.

    Compared to his last four years where he played with the worst teammates, always faced the toughest competition(tied for most in the league) and had the fewest offensive zone starts, and his Corsi plummeted. There has to be a correlation here.

    You did bring up a couple articles that prove some of your points but when used all together in a general context of Webers progression from being a mostly offensively used defensmen to being used solely for defensive roles it's glaringly obvious to anyone without an agenda that this would explain the drop off.

    In my opinion anyway people can make up their own minds.

    I personally think Weber still has a lot to show in his career and will work his butt off to prove it

    Subban traded to Nashville

    in Habs & Hockey Talk

    Posted · Edited by Scott462

    "I'd like to chime in on this Weber-Suban debate... been awhile since I've posted here, so bare with me...

    Despite the rumors, like many of you I was surprised they actually pulled the trigger and traded PK. Though I’ve stayed away from this place for quite some time (because it became the Therrien forum and was no longer a Habs forum), when the trade went down, I came here to soak up the juicy gossip. So I’ve silently been following the arguments for and against the trade. As per usual, a lot of buffoonery… ha-ha… However, I’ve noticed the usual loudmouths (things never change!) either ignorantly obfuscating or intentionally misusing analytics to argue for their position. In particular, I find these kinds of posts particularly egregious:

    “It's not about stories and it's not about sides, that's the part you don't seem to get...

    Some numbers are more relevant than others. Mathman is not a "PK superfan" he's looking at the numbers and drawing his conclusions from there. From an analytics perspective we lost this trade. That's black and white. The sooner people accept this the sooner we can move on to a more meaningful discussion. Weber's numbers are better on the PP but that's partially explained by Subban playing in a ridiculous system. Pulling out things like +/- is a sign that somebody doesn't understand stats or is willfully ignoring their meaning... THAT is an example of somebody trying to make stats fit an argument.

    If there is a "side" that wants to argue for Weber, they should probably avoid trying to argue that he's better numbers wise because he clearly isn't. They should also avoid saying his analytics aren't in decline because they clearly are. So we're left with things like "intangibles"....

    If I were to argue "for" Weber, I would try the route of saying that the analytics might improve in Montreal for some reason. I would argue that analtyics don't capture everything (a valid argument that has been used.) And I might argue that his relative numbers would be worse because there was a good supporting cast in Nashville, but I wouldn't try to argue that his numbers were better than Subban's because... they aren't.”

    “The numbers show Weber in decline. They do not show Subban in decline. There is no "round and round we go" here. We have some people pointing to numbers that are real and others who are willfully ignoring them.”

    “When he was on the ice the puck was usually in the other team's zone and we actually had a chance to score. He was responsible for 60+ percent of our offense and when he wasn't out there the puck was usually in our end. He made all of our players better and this is borne out in the numbers you either don't understand or willfully dismiss.”

    “Again this has been rebuked many times jerry, just seems like you like to argue without verifying facts. It has been proven that when Subban is on the ice, the team generates 60% more offence and they produce significantly less when he is off the ice. When WEBER is on the ice his team produced less than when he was off the ice and that's with a better forward group Nashville has.

    You need to check.”

    The above comments are misplaced because you’re looking at numbers completely free of any context. That is to say, you’re looking at numbers at a high level of abstraction and then using them to draw big conclusions. While I think it can certainly be illuminating to look at analytics to glean insights, this kind of statistical chicanery does no one any favors: it makes those using them this way look untrustworthy and it gives those trying to use them sincerely a bad name. So since I’ve only seen people pick and choose statistics here and there, I thought it would be informative to try to provide a more comprehensive – and contextually relevant – analysis.

    OK, now since an appeal to analytics without actually walking people through them is no different than an appeal to authority (Why is there thunder? Shaman: Because the Gods are fighting! Why is this a bad trade? Guy on HFboards: Because one player has got a higher Relative Corsi number!), in responding to the aforementioned claims, I thought I’d do my best to actually walk people step-by-step through the numbers. Before doing that, however, a little background on Relative Corsi.

    Relative Corsi in Context


    Now, those who say we lost this trade often point to the analytics. That is, they say it’s clear we lost this trade because: 1) PK’s Relative Corsi shows he’s a far better defenseman at driving possession than Weber’s Relative Corsi does, and 2) Weber’s declining Relative Corsi over time shows he has clearly declined in skills and/or abilities. These claims, for example, are all strongly suggested in the above quotes.

    Now, making these kinds of statements based on Relative Corsi (a proxy for how much a player drives possession) alone is just poor reasoning. That is to say, abstracted from its context, Relative Corsi doesn’t tell us much. To better appreciate what Relative Corsi is telling us, we really need to assess Relative Corsi in the context of three other statistics: Quality of Competition (REL QoC), Quality of Teammates (REL QoT), and Offensive Zone Start %.

    The idea is that the lower the Quality of Competition a player plays against, the higher the Quality of Teammates a player plays with, and the higher the Offensive Zone Start % a player enjoys, the more likely he’ll enjoy a higher Relative Corsi.

    Now, I think, even more important than the absolute value of these statistics (as it’s debatable the extent to which the absolute value of these statistics allow us to directly compare players across teams) is where a player ranks relative to his teammates. The latter tells us about the role of that player on the team and, hence, gives us some context with which we can evaluate their Relative Corsi number. Thus, for example, a player might have a very high Relative Corsi BUT it may also be the case that relative to his teammates he is playing against weak opposition, with strong teammates, and is enjoying a high number of offensive zone starts. Given the latter context, of course, he should have a higher Relative Corsi number.

    OK, and here is a nice little primer on these statistics: http://nhlnumbers.com/2014/9/1/the-n...ts-cheat-sheet

    Finally, the data for this come from: http://www.behindthenet.ca

    Claim: Subban is better at Driving Possession than Weber


    To fairly assess this claim, again, you really need to compare their Relative Corsi numbers in the same context, that is, where they played against equally strong competition, with equally skilled teammates, and where they had an equal number of offensive zone starts. Now, in analyzing Weber on these variables, I discovered a Tale of Two Webers: whereas for the last four seasons he’s been tasked primarily with a shutdown role, for the four seasons before that he was tasked primarily with offensive duties. The latter is fortuitous because it means we can directly compare both Subban’s and Weber’s Relative Corsi numbers when they’ve been tasked with offensive responsibilities.

    So, again, to do this I assessed Quality of Competition, Quality of Teammates, Offensive Zone Start %, and Relative Corsi for each season for Weber (first four seasons) and Subban (last four seasons). And, to simplify, I averaged across the four seasons for each player. And again, for each statistic, I’ve looked at where the players have ranked (average rank for four seasons rounded to closest whole number) with respect to their teammates (seen in brackets).

    Weber the First Four Years

    Quality of Competition: .96 (5th highest on team; 2nd highest for defenseman)
    Quality of Teammates: 1.93 (3rd highest on team; 2nd highest for defenseman)
    Off Zone Start %: 45.65 (6th highest on team; 3rd highest for defensemen)
    Rel Corsi: 9.68% (3rd highest on team)

    Weber played against decent quality of competition; it seems he played with a high quality of teammates; curiously, he started far more often in the defensive than offensive zone; and, curiously, it seems he was not necessarily the go to defenseman for offense (being 3rd highest in this regard for defenseman). And he enjoyed a high Relative Corsi throughout these years (9.68%).

    Note:

    I have this data elsewhere, but it shows that his quality of competition increased from one year to the next. In the first two years it seems other defenseman were tasked with shutdown roles. I’m not sure in the latter two years if he was tasked with a shutdown role or whether he and Suter were simply matched against the best lines (i.e., power against power).

    Subban Over the Last Four Years

    Quality of Competition: 0.597 (4th highest on team; 3rd highest for defenseman)
    Quality of Teammates: 1.02 (7th highest on team; 3rd highest for defenseman)
    Off Zone Start %: 50.93 (5th highest on team; 1st highest for defenseman)
    Rel Corsi: 10.63% (4th highest on the team)

    So like Weber during his first four seasons, though he played against decent competition, it seems others, at least at times, were tasked with shutdown roles; he also played with decent, though certainly not stellar, teammates; he enjoyed an even number of offensive and defensive zone starts; and it seems he was the go to defenseman for offense (being 1st in this regard for defenseman in each of the last four seasons). And, like Weber, enjoyed a high Relative Corsi (10.63%) throughout these years.

    Comment

    Though we could quibble about who had it easier or was in a more favorable position (Subban because he was playing against slightly easier competition and had far more offensive zone starts, or Weber because he played with slightly higher quality teammates), I think it’s fair to conclude that both Weber and Subban, at least using Relative Corsi as a metric, excel equally well in driving possession when called upon to do so.

    I thought it might be interesting to also look at this in a slightly different way: to look at where Weber and Subban ranked next to other defenseman in the league on these variables for each of these four years (his rank/number of defenseman in analysis). Seasons are ranked from most distant to most recent.

    Weber Quality of Competition (First 4 Years)

    41/110 (Medium)
    20/108 (High)
    16/112 (Very High)
    10/98 (Very High)

    Weber Quality of Teammates (First 4 Years)

    4/110 (Very High)
    13/108 (Very High)
    9/112 (Very High)
    18/98 (High)

    Weber OFF Zone Start % (First 4 Years)

    71/110 (Low)
    94/108 (Very Low)
    95/112 (Very Low)
    84/98 (Very Low)

    Weber Rel Corsi (First 4 Years)

    5/110 (Very High)
    20/108 (High)
    20/112 (High)
    4/98 (Very High)

    Comment

    So relative to other defenseman, Weber faced some high quality competition, but he also played with some high quality teammates; he had some terrible offensive zone start numbers, however; and he had some pretty fantastic Relative Corsi numbers.

    PK Quality of Competition (Last 4 Years)

    79/108 (Low)
    55/106 (Medium)
    28/100 (High)
    43/151 (High)

    PK Quality of Teammates (Last 4 Years)

    78/108 (Low)
    44/106 (Medium)
    5/100 (Very High)
    86/151 (Medium)

    PK OFF Zone Start % (Last 4 Years)

    22/108 (High)
    78/106 (Low)
    44/100 (Medium)
    37/151 (High)

    PK Rel Corsi (Last 4 Years)

    7/108 (Very High)
    7/106 (Very High)
    1/100 (Very High – Amazing!)
    55/151 (Medium)

    Comment

    So relative to other defenseman, PK faced a mixed-bag as far as quality of competition goes (Therrien seemed to get him favorable matchups during his Norris season), and he also played with a mixed-bag regarding the quality of his teammates; except for one season, his offensive zone starts have been pretty favorable (especially, again, his Norris season); and, of course, he has some pretty impressive Relative Corsi numbers.

    Again, though we can quibble over who had it easier, the fact is that in comparison to other defensemen throughout these years, they both put up some pretty impressive Relative Corsi numbers.

    Conclusion

    So for those saying that Weber is somehow worse than Subban in terms of driving possession, the statistics – when looked at in context – just don’t back it up.

    Claim: Weber is Clearly Declining

    Now, some are claiming Weber is on a decline and that this is clearly shown by the fact that his Relative Corsi numbers have dropped over time. However, as I said, in analyzing Weber’s data, I noticed starting four years ago that his role dramatically changed in that he seemed to became Nashville’s go to shutdown defenseman. It’s not at all surprising, therefore, that (as shown by that graph some have posted) his Relative Corsi numbers have gone from positive in the first four years to negative in the second four years. But don’t take my word for it, take a look at the numbers:

    Weber the Second Four Years

    Quality of Competition: 1.48 (2nd highest on team; 1st highest for defenseman)
    Quality of Teammates: -.55 (8th highest on team; 3rd highest for defenseman)
    Off Zone Start %: 45.90 (10th highest on team; 4th highest for defenseman)
    Rel Corsi: -4.50% (9th highest on team)

    Comparing the absolute numbers for these statistics to his first four years, it’s pretty dramatic how his quality of competition went up and how his quality of teammates went down. And looking at the rankings, it’s pretty clear there has been a change in role for Weber. That is, it seems pretty clear his job over these years has been to contain the best the other team could throw at them, and not to generate offense. And this is particularly evident for the last two seasons: in his first two seasons here, he was 1st for defenseman in Quality of Teammates; in the latter two seasons, he was 5th for defenseman in Quality Of Teammates. And to give you an idea of just how dire it has been for Weber, let’s take a closer look at just how tough he had it during his worst season in regards to his Relative Corsi numbers, namely 2014-2015.

    Season 2014 – 2015 (Analysis includes 70 games or more: 12 players)

    Quality of Competition: 1.3 (2/12 highest on team; tied 1st highest for defenseman)
    Quality of Teammates: -2.1 (11/12 highest on team; 5th highest for defenseman)
    Off Zone Start %: 46.30 (8/12 highest on team; 3rd highest for defenseman)
    Rel Corsi: -9.30% (10/12 highest on the team; 4th highest for defenseman)

    Comment

    You can see this season Weber was playing against the highest quality of competition (only Paul Gaustad on his team was higher). The quality of teammates with which he played, however, was incredibly low (only Paul Gaustad was lower). Indeed, it looks like he was consistently playing with the worst teammates. And as has always been the case for Weber, he started in the defensive zone far more often than not.

    Now, looking at this, it is very easy to understand why his Relative Corsi is so low. Consider, for example, his fellow defensemen, Seth Jones and Mattias Ekholm, who had Quality of Competition of .3 and -.2 (considerably lower; and no one faced easier competition than Seth Jones!), Quality of Teammates of 3.1 and 1.2 (that’s a massive disparity compared to the quality of teammates Weber played with!), and offensive zone starts of 54.8% and 54.9% (again, the disparity is huge!).

    It’s very easy to see, therefore, why their Relative Corsi, 9.5 and 4.1, is so much higher than that of Weber (And why in that graph that’s been posted he’s so far below baseline in his Relative Corsi numbers for this season). I mean, given the context, it would be patently absurd to use his Relative Corsi here to argue: 1) he is somehow a worse defenseman than the other defenseman on his team, and 2) that this indicates some kind of decline in skills or abilities on his part. Indeed, you could argue the reason why these other players did as well as they did this season was precisely because Weber was playing the toughest minutes. Indeed, someone who knows far more about the predators than I already has:

    http://predators.nhl.com/club/blogpo...t.htm?id=36127

    Now, not that you need any more convincing at this point, but to further put this in perspective, I looked at where he ranked next to other defenseman in the league on these variables for each of the past four years (his rank/number of defenseman in analysis):

    Weber Quality of Competition (Last 4 Years)

    10/108 (Very High)
    4/106 (Very High)
    7/100 (Very High)
    9/151 (Very High)

    Weber Quality of Teammates (Last 4 Years)

    85/108 (Low)
    57/106 (Medium)
    100/100 (Very Low – Dead last – Oh, come on!)
    136/151 (Very Low – Pretty brutal!)

    Weber OFF Zone Start % (Last 4 Years)

    101/108 (Very Low)
    95/106 (Very Low)
    69/100 (Low)
    55/151 (Medium)

    Weber Rel Corsi (Last 4 Years)

    61/108 (Medium)
    70/100 (Low)
    87/100 (Very Low)
    103/151 (Low)

    Holy Crap! So the last four years Weber has played against the highest quality of opposition, with the lowest quality of teammates, and has endured some of the poorest offensive zone start numbers amongst all defenseman in the league. And just compare these rankings (especially quality of teammates) to his first four years – not even close! So you’re seriously questioning why his Relative Corsi has dropped off? And you’re seriously suggesting this represents a decline in skills and/or abilities? Come on now!

    Interesting Note

    Given PK put up his highest Relative Corsi numbers the season he played with the strongest Teammates and given how much Weber’s Relative Corsi numbers plummeted over the last four seasons where he played with terrible teammates (and put up his worst Relative Corsi numbers the season he played with the worst teammates), I wondered about the relationship between the two variables. So I just ran correlations for the two variables for all players for each of the last two seasons and, sure enough, I found some reasonably strong correlations (r’s of .45 or so). So quality of teammates seems pretty important for driving Relative Corsi! That’s interesting because some suggest this statistic isolates the extent to which a player individually drives possession. Many have lamented this interpretation, however (see link below for thoughts). I can see why – teammates matter!

    http://drivingplay.blogspot.ca/2011/...corsi-rel.html

    Overall Conclusion

    So whoever has been using Weber’s Relative Corsi numbers to argue: 1) he is a worse defenseman at driving possession than either PK or his fellow teammates, and 2) he is declining in his skills and abilities, please stop! There is just NO statistical support based on Relative Corsi WHEN VIEWED IN CONTEXT for these assertions.

    One more thing, looking at analytics is fun but, really, I don’t think there’s anything here that a discerning observer wouldn’t have told you. That is to say, I suspect for a discerning observer these numbers would pretty much confirm what they already knew. I know there’s been a big debate here between seasoned observers and analytics guys, but there shouldn’t be. I’d say if there’s a discrepancy between what the eyes of the experts (and NOT fans or journalists who are disposed to see things as they want to see them) are telling us and the numbers, then we better recheck those numbers.

    (huff... puff... ha-ha...) At any rate, at least as far as the numbers go, hopefully this brings some clarity to the Weber-Subban debate. For what it’s worth, the trade initially took me aback; I really hadn’t paid much attention to Weber, honestly, and I didn’t have much of an opinion on him (except, of course, what we all know of him from his reputation). So, for myself, looking at these numbers was illuminating. I can say I’m getting quite excited about the upcoming season – this guy really seems like a stud!"

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Sorry for the wall of text guys. I had come across this guys post a while ago on the HF forums in which he tries to put the stats regarding Subban/Weber in the right context (which I have been hammering on about for a little bit). I personally thought he did a good job trying to do so. It certainly brings a little insight into the numbers.

    Cheers!

    http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?p=121293267#post121293267

    Subban traded to Nashville

    in Habs & Hockey Talk

    Posted

    Beaulieu is probably very excited to playing with an anchor such as Weber. It gives him the time to open up and do things he wouldn't of had a chance to do playing with PK. He also probably seen how well Josi developed while playing with him.

    Also Max put out a tweet recently:

    "With all the moves we made I feel a little less pressure. I have already learned a lot from Shea" - Pacioretty

    Subban traded to Nashville

    in Habs & Hockey Talk

    Posted

    Sorry Don!?

    No worries commandant

    That is true Will, if you look at some of those charts Lidstrom is 16 all time for top ten Norris finishes, that is really incredible especially in this day and age. One of the greats for sure. Also Chara at 10 all time is pretty impressive.

    Suter was really close in his 2nd place Norris to PK in 13 as well. As others have pointed out to his Norris placing after he left Nashville.

    PK has two Norris placings one 1st and another 3rd but how young he is and the skill he has I could see him adding a couple more. Still a whole lot of hockey for him to play to make his mark

    Subban traded to Nashville

    in Habs & Hockey Talk

    Posted

    A couple Carey Price quotes about Weber:

    Hes obviously a big presence on the ice, Price told TSN in a video interview. I know him very well, obviously, living in the same town. Ive known him for a few years now and hes a very strong character guy. Hes going to bring a lot to our hockey team."

    "Im definitely happy to have a guy like that in front of me, added Price, who has fully recovered from a knee injury that sidelined him most of last season. Like I said, hes a big presence on the ice and off the ice. He makes it difficult to play against every night and Im looking forward to seeing him in front of me, thats for sure.

    Subban traded to Nashville

    in Habs & Hockey Talk

    Posted

    Chara is the only active defencemen with more top 10 finishes than Weber for the Norris.

    I was talking more about how Suter left Nashville with the whole controversy with promising Polie one thing and then doing another. Apparently the fans their hate him

    Subban traded to Nashville

    in Habs & Hockey Talk

    Posted

    I heard Sutter was struggling over in Minnesota, I also heard he really ed over Nashville when he went there.

    I get that you are not saying he's awful I never had an issue with that.

    Alls I'm saying is I think a lot of people will disagree with you about Josi not being lumped in with those guys. Maybe not better but close to them anyway same with Weber even though he's a lot different than the ones mentioned

    http://www.theplayerstribune.com/elite-defensemen-101-part-2/

    An article from last year by Shattenkirk talking about the best defensemen in the league. It's always cool getting a player's perspective

    Cheers!

    Subban traded to Nashville

    in Habs & Hockey Talk

    Posted

    So that means that Josi was just as bad at shot suppression last year as Weber was but a lot of people think he is one of the top PMDs in the league and was #3 on the list of Coutures list of top D men. Now we both agree players will always talk up other players up but a lot of people think Josi is one of the best.

    I was just wondering your opinion on that and the fact Josi doesn't have stellar Corsi either

    Subban traded to Nashville

    in Habs & Hockey Talk

    Posted

    To be honest I think it would make more sense to compare Josi Corsi to Subbans since they are similar type D men.

    What does Josi Corsi look like? Since it would be more his job to be running the puck out of the zone as it would be Webers job to retrieve and get the puck to him

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