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Toronthab

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    Regarding Gainey

    in Habs & Hockey Talk

    Posted

    Thanks. But I don't want to get carried away in the opposite direction either. While I do think things are better than the doom and gloom that seems to be rampant amongst Habs fans, I don't think things are brilliantly rosy.

    I think Bob has managed the team with a very definite plan and he's stuck to it almost too closely. Towards the deadline, I don't think very many would hve been disappointed if he decided that it wasn't the team to go deep, and therefore get rid of assets. That he stayed the course is very admirable, but I believe - as you state - that it took one helluva lot of cohones.

    Has he managed the team beautifully? No. I disagree with a couple of moves he's made. In particular, I think his decisions for bench boss have been poor up until the Martin hiring. I think his decision not to negotiate during the season is a very risky one - high risk, high reward.... and high failure. With Komy, it looks so far that he made the right decision. But would Streit look good here at the rumoured $2M per that Streit thought reasonable at the time? What about the Plex question?

    ~~

    I'm not trying to contradict myself with this response, just trying to paint what I see as a more realistic picture than the either purely beatific responses or the abject negative ones. Bob is a GM who set himself a path and has followed it almost religiously. I don't think there have been many deviations at all from where he intended to go when he took over. This is just phase two.

    I mean, if we'd won the Cup with Koivu, Kovalev et al, do you think we'd still be competitive with them as they near middle age? No, this is a business and it's time to move on, win or lose, to younger players who can help the team compete today.

    Who better than Habs fans understand that what-have-you-done-for-me-lately attitude?

    Streit would look awful good back there alright. What a terrific player and there is no doubt that it was time for a leadership change. I was surprised by Kovy choosing another pad however, even one not too far from Montreal :-). I really admired the relationship that had built up between the two of them. And as to Carbs, he was another ballsy decision, one that didn't look too bad at some times, and quite frankly I don't have the competence to judge much at all about coaching changes but also noted a twenty shots against game here and there.

    One further critical element is the gel factor. No, not Souray's hair, but the big turnover...no not Timi Horton's ..but the third of the team that blew into town to pick up new linemates in a new system with a new coach.

    So, I will agree, with some effort, not to call the pope to begin beatification investigations, and I'd have to come up with two miraculous events to confirm it in any case. If we win the cup this year, the first one's in the hockey bag! I'd take a Gomez revitalization as a controversial second.

    If the 'new' atheists like Richard Dawkins are right however, then all is just mindless matter in motion which must include our hopes and thoughts in a purposeless universe. Being just acausal quantum events rooted in the Big Bang and nullifying even the possibility of free will and subsequent responsibility, this would let uncle Bob off the hook entirely. :blink:

    Regarding Gainey

    in Habs & Hockey Talk

    Posted

    You've been talking about this for a while; I think it's obvious. What else is there?

    He started out with a 5-year plan which he stated clearly from the beginning would be centred around great drafting and development of youth within the system. For all the 'what-have-you-done-for-me-lately' thinking, we did end up as the top seed in year number four. Up to that point, Gainey's plan was perfectly good and there was no reason to make any fundamental changes. Even the kids who we're panning regularly today looked back then like they were improving.

    Last year comes around and you have the confluence of horrible events that surrounds the team. Off-ice shenanigans. Backwards progression of the kids and, to be frank, a large step back from the established core either through over-confidence, laziness, or advancing age; probably a combination of all three with a large emphasis on the latter.

    The summer previous, Bob did what any GM would do if he felt his team was on the cusp of taking that step to legit Cup contenders, he dealt away youth and picks to patch those holes deemed necessary for a Cup run. There was nothing he did out of the ordinary and commentary otherwise is really nothing more than 20/20 hindsight. During the season he kept with his plan because he figured that, when the injury plague ended, the team had a legit shot with everyone healthy and geared for a Cup run. There was no reason not to believe that. Sure, Carey was struggling, but he'd showed what he could do early in the season, so why not believe that he could recapture that down the stretch.

    He didn't, the team failed, and Bob gets to the summer - with a planned mass of UFA's. Do people reallly think those UFA's were coincidental at that time? End of 5-year plan: re-evaluation. Which Bob did. I don't like my core, we need a change of mentality.

    So he makes a trade which everyone questions consistently: Gomez. Was it a risky trade? Absolutely. But we know Bob had tried to acquire other centres but was unsuccessful. Did he overpay for Gomez? Perhaps, but he wasn't willing to risk the franchise being uncompetitive for an extended period to get Lecavalier into the fold. The Montreal market WILL NOT accept repeated failure, so that option was closed when Tampa asked for too much. Instead, just before the UFA period Bob acquired a highly talented if overpaid Gomez knowing full well that with that asset, he could probably lure other high talent assets (and if you doubt this, then you really do doubt Bob's intelligence).

    Bob then goes out and gets Gionta and Cammalleri, among others. Small? Yes, but these were bonified attacking players who showed up every night. (And we have yet to be proven wrong on this count.) What Gainey was counting on was that the purge of the old mentality and the influx of new talent would create a competitive and energized atmosphere which would lift the games of the kids who had struggled.

    Plekanec has found new life. He's not modelling his game on the laziest player on the planet anymore - he's working again. The rest of the kids? Questionable so far. Pacioretty has been the most pleasant surprise so far and White has certainly shown that same work ethic in his short time here. Where, though, are the Kosty's and the rest of the secondary scoring?

    There are so many comments about what Bob *should* have done or *could* have done. What he did, though, was perfectly logical considering the circumstances and the market. And yes, it's been disappointing as of the 20-game mark, but there have been more than a few teams who have made the playoffs after a lousy start to the season. Despite all the down-trodden faces and rampant negativity, the team is still only two games under .500 and has shown, at times, that it can compete with the best in the league.

    And they've done that with a brutal patchwork defense that is incapable of sustaining any kind of offensive threat through a consistent transition game.

    Should we be disappointed? Absolutely. Should we give up, pray for Bob to blow it up, then go around whinging like Leaf fans? I don't believe so. This team has a lot of potential, as I see it. We need a healthier defense and someone - anyone - to step up on the second line to make a difference. Short of that, I suspect Bob is exploring every option towards making a move to shore up those areas where we're obviously weak.

    The problem is, that's not really possible considering our injury system, combined with the cap issues, and the current climate in the NHL. This is not a trade environment. Fans should be more than aware by now that after the holiday break is when things *start* to heat up, and the trading doesn't really get going until February.

    Too late for the Canadiens this year? No. They're just under .500 - let me put that in perspective: a short two-game winning streak puts this team at .500... two games... two - and they're just now starting to get healthy. While they've had their share of poor outings, they've also suffered from bad luck to a degree, and they've been oh-so-close many other times. While many have poo-poo'd Martin's system recently, there was little doubt about its effectiveness a couple of weeks ago when our shots against were down into the 20's on a fairly regular basis.

    Now we have Carey Price (and to a lesser degree Jaro Halak) seeming to turn the corner on their respective seasons.

    I'm quite sure that all of your mothers have said the following: patience is a virtue. There's no need to panic. It's still VERY early in the season; there are 62 games to play! I believe Bob's second rebuild is going quite well considering it's in it's infancy. And despite the last build's failure, one can point to almost every other GM in the league as failing as well. How many of them had division winning season's, though?

    I know there's plenty of talk about the cap and how this edition of the Canadiens will do within it over a period of time. Well, even if it goes down a little for next season, there's no reason to believe it will stay down, but will probably rise once again. Which means we'll have room again in a couple of seasons. And Armageddon part II is on it's way shortly when this CBA runs out. Perhaps Gainey is putting together his team with insider knowledge on what's expected then.

    Bottom line, all this panic talk about Gainey's leadership is, in my opinion, bunk. If you logically follow his moves, they're consistent and are, by and large, successful in guiding this team forward. Are they all perfect? Hell no, or we'd be dancing on top of the division after having won our Cup in year five.

    I find it amusing that there are so many pronouncements on the Habs fate after 20 games.... after a complete overhaul and philosophy change. I understand that Habs fans feel entitled to *more* and *better*, but really, I think we're doing just fine this early.

    Just my opinion.

    Boy ; that was great Colin. You have expressed my view completely and I think it solid as can be. Mr G has been managing this team beautifully and with large cojones to boot. I have, like everyone, always admired this great man, but I think when our fan-tastic expectations arise for the tearm he helped make legendary, we can get a little short-sighted vis-a-vis, the real world in all its undocumentable complexity.

    Thank God for Uncle Bob!

    GAME THREAD : Habs vs Preds

    in Habs & Hockey Talk

    Posted

    I can't figure out why they Spacek hasn't been allowed to play the left side. And I do believe that O'Byrne being out leaves a hole. This is only based on the fact that he is right handed. Nothing more. Watching all those lefties trying to clear the puck on the right boards is painful to watch. You guys must see it. They keep trying to backhand it with their ass facing the blueline.

    I think the loss of Markov has been crippling...no pun intented on his injury, and the other D casualties just compound an already tenuous situation. I've seen some pretty good play out there at times, and it's great to see Price show glimpses of awesome, for in a real way uncle Bob certainly did make the commitment to his contributions for the long haul.

    It may just be my natural buoyancy, but I still think we've got a pretty good team and if Mr Gomez decides to continue his hockey career, ...who knows? Pleks has certainly returned to his marvelous form and good for him!

    Thre had to be a drop after the big year that wasn't where uncle Bob took the risks he had to take to give us a shot. I think he came very, very close. Who knows how well Price might have played if he didn't have all the pressure on his shoulders following the injury plague.

    Cheers

    Disgusted with game tonight and 75% of habs this season.

    in Habs & Hockey Talk

    Posted

    Well, a 5-year-plan basically means bringing along young players. E.g., in 5 years Subban will be a Montreal Canadien (and he'd better be a top-4 defenceman by that point; my hope is that he comes in as Hamrlik's replacement and really starts coming into his own by 2014). Avtsin may be a factor. Leblanc will be emerging. Price, Pacioretty and D'Agostini will be hitting their prime. Latendresse will have definitively have answered the question of whether he has any hope of being a top-6 forward. Maxwell may be a second-line C. And new players will have been added into the mix. The point is that most of these players will be CHEAP, because young.

    The cap isn't an issue if you're rebuilding with youth. The current core is, according to this theory, basically there to keep the team competitive while Gainey quietly tries to acquire kids and bring them along. In 5 years, Gomez and Gionta will be disposable, because they'll be on the downside and replaceable by (cheaper) talent developed from within. This is what *should* have happened with the late unlamented core, but of course didn't.

    Our cap problems will centre around veterans and young veterans who emerge too soon *within* that five-year window. Plekanec and Price, for instance. But I'm not sure we need to slit our wrists over that just yet. Lots of teams just manage tight cap room. Let's see what Gainey does rather than just assume we'll lose everybody.

    As for the general theory of a "rebuild in disguise," I have no evidence for this hypothesis except the revelation by Pierre Boivin that Gainey intended to fire the Hamilton coaching staff as early as 2007, and the length of the contracts of the current core. As I said before, that Bob wanted to fire Lever et al. back then suggests strongly to me that Gainey recognized quite early on that something had gone wrong with player development. When he blew up the team this summer, it was a definitive admission that the rebuild had failed. But realistically he could not ask the fans to wait another five years, so he's tried to buy time with the current group. Hence the 4-5 year contracts he doled out. You can read those contract terms as a tacit prediction of how long it will take Gainey to replace those guys with young players developed from within.

    I may be giving Bob too much credit for deviousness here. But my little theory does offer SOME hope that he hasn't just lost the plot, as Wamsley accuses him of doing. As I say, if Bob starts dealing away more young players/picks for veterans, then we'll know definitively that he *has* lost the plot.

    I think your read of this excellent and dedicated hockey mind is good. One can do only what one can do. We made moves to make a run that might have worked out, but after injuries just couldn't and we are not a fan base that allows tanking for three years to get a shot at franchise draftees.

    The Montreal path to success is a harder one. We actually want to see a HOCKEY game when we tune in; and we want our team to win. We don't and should not allow our team to bottom feed for draft gains. The game is hockey, and we want our team to play.

    I have been very pleased with the excellent shot Mr G prepared for us and the great hopes he inspired. He is now contintuing his careful, thoughtful program to give us a team that can compete today and give hope for tomorrow.

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