The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 I'm not saying Koivu is infallible - he's clearly feeling the effects from the Olympics right now. But to go from that to concluding that he doesn't really care about the Cup (which is disproven by his playoff track record) or that we'll 'never win with him' is silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CerebusClone Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 I'm sorry, but just pick any other player throughout history, even the greatest like Gretzky, Richard, Lemieux, etc: if you just swapped that player with Saku Koivu, Montreal would still not have won a Stanley Cup in the last 10 years, and they would still have been a bottom feeding team. Lemieux didn't win the Cup until he had a boosted team, and had guys like Jagr, Francis, Murphy, Coffey, and others to support him. Gretzky and the Rocket both had a few other Hall of Famers behind them as well when they won Stanley Cups. Koivu is pretty much the only good star player we've had during that strecth, with the exceptions of Mark Recchi and Andrei Markov. The others were either overrated, almost marginal players (mostly thanks to Koivu) like Savage, Petrov, Kilger, Bulis, Zednik, etc , gutless wonders like Rucinsky, Malakhov, Bonk, and even Alex Kovalev. There was no way he could have lead those sorry bunches anywhere. Now, Koivu is not an elite player like Forsberg, Thornton, Lemieux, ... but he's very good player nonetheless. Every time we make it into the playoffs, he takes his game to a new level (like he did for the Olympics), and becomes one of the best players of the playoffs. If you swapped Koivu with either Marc Savard or Brad Richards, I'm not sure that these guys would have more points than he does in Montreal, and I'm pretty sure Koivu would also be in the Top 15 or even the Top 10 if he played constantly with Kovalchuk and/or Hossa. However, I do agree that Koivu is having an off year so far. Not statiscally, he's actually doing just about the same, but his level of play is not quite up to par. However, that's the first time that I see Koivu struggling so much, and after so many years of actually playing very well, I think he deserves a break from the media and the fans. Even some the greatest players have had off season, including the Rocket, but they always came back with solid seasons after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted March 25, 2006 Share Posted March 25, 2006 Koivu will deliver in the playoffs he always does. But I sure hope the Canadiens make the playoffs. With the way Koivu Higgins and Ryder played yesterday, Koivu does not have to score goal his passes were crisp and he kept the puck in the leafs zone numerous times with not only his puck possession but also some very big offensive zone body checks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaos Posted March 25, 2006 Share Posted March 25, 2006 If you swapped Koivu with either Marc Savard or Brad Richards, I'm not sure that these guys would have more points than he does in Montreal, and I'm pretty sure Koivu would also be in the Top 15 or even the Top 10 if he played constantly with Kovalchuk and/or Hossa. I absolutley believe that Richards would have more points than Koivu, and I'd be willing to be that Ryder would have 30 goals or more and Kovalev would probably be on a point a game pace. Your right , Koivu is a good player, but Richards makes everyone around him better!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CerebusClone Posted March 25, 2006 Share Posted March 25, 2006 (edited) I absolutley believe that Richards would have more points than Koivu, and I'd be willing to be that Ryder would have 30 goals or more and Kovalev would probably be on a point a game pace. Your right , Koivu is a good player, but Richards makes everyone around him better!!! And Koivu doesn't (not talking about this year, he's defenitely having an off year)? What has Brian Savage done after he left Montreal? What was Zednik doing before he came to Montreal (and he used to play on a line with Adam Oates and Peter Bondra)? Look at Chris Higgins right now. Koivu does make players around him better, but he got such terrible wingers over the years. Plus, he's been stuck in the ultra defensive-minded Montreal system of the last several years that wants everyone to be 2-way forwards. Also, before Koivu's slump that started befoe the Olympics, he was actually ahead of a few star centers like Richards, Sakic, Modano, Sundin, and Lecavalier in terms of point per game production. I think Koivu is better than what many here believe, but not as good as some others seem to think. He's not a elite player, but he's defenitely a star center. In the playoffs, at least so far, he always becomes a dominating player. In my opinion, Koivu and Richards are similar players. They're both great 2-way centers, none of them are offensive monsters, but they are very effective. Koivu might be a slightly more talented than Richards, but Richards is bigger and healthier. Of course, if I had to choose, I would pick Richards since he's younger, and not constantly injured... Edited March 25, 2006 by CerebusClone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habsfan88 Posted March 25, 2006 Share Posted March 25, 2006 Wow, relax some of you guys. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, this thread was Dave's... so if you don't agree, say so and state your opinion but getting angry and saying for example, that this thread is "stupid" is not a good agrument/debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazy26 Posted March 25, 2006 Share Posted March 25, 2006 Wow, relax some of you guys. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, this thread was Dave's... so if you don't agree, say so and state your opinion but getting angry and saying for example, that this thread is "stupid" is not a good agrument/debate. Agreed. After all, we're not Leafs' fans.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaos Posted March 25, 2006 Share Posted March 25, 2006 Agreed. After all, we're not Leafs' fans.. "THANK ROCKET RICHARD" ("Thank God"...get it???) Groan.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozhab Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Why pay a guy (I'm talking Koivu here) who has never really done anything, both statistically and in terms of winning. We should have let him walk and then shown the money to guys like Richards and Redden (pay them and they will come). Maybe some are content with these 8th seed shenanigans, but I want to win a Cup, and to do so, you need winners. -Dave If you surround a great player with average ones, how much better do the average players play? Brian Savage, Shayne Corson, Oleg Petrov.... is it just me or is there a pattern? Kovalev is the first genuine top flight player to play on Koivu's side. Both have had injuries this season which has limited their impact, as has playing on separate lines of late. If you want more achievements out of the guy, give him better linemates. There was a reason why Koivu was made captain - once upon a time, being made captain of the Canadiens was like a death sentence. After the tumultuous Rejean Houle years, the players all elected Koivu captain as a show that they wanted stability in the team to allow it to rebuild. He was, and still is, the team's inspirational player and the one they look to in tough times. Yes he has struggled to score goals of late but what good is one or even two goals when you're getting pumped by five? Koivu has the ability to be a #1 center (skill-wise and points-wise) and that ability will shine when he has more depth behind him - it's easy to shut down your best center when you only have one major offensive line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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