Tampa - Flyers and Flames

[Ribeiro]

Who would you rather face the Flames, The Lightning or Flyers?

I would like the Flyers to move on because they are clearly the better team not run by luck. However, the Flames have a better chance against the Light Bulbs. Hopefully, the Flyers move on (because the better team should advance), and they fall to the Flames.

I however truly believe that the Canadiens, who are the last to win the Cup for Canada...will be the first to bring it back. :ghg:

[sakiqc]

Would be special that Calgary, after beating the #1, #2 and #3 seeded teams in the West beat the #1 team in the East. However, i really think that Calgary is just another underdog team to screw the Stanley Cup Finals. Last decade, it happened often a surprise-team went to the SCF.. never won though.

Philadelphia is gonna win game #7 and finally win the Cup. I don't want a florida team to win the Stanley Cup. Flyers have a very good team. THey made great moves at the end of the season. I hope for them it pays off.

[Fanpuck33_]

Go Bolts. Send Bobby Clarke home crying and let Martin St. Louis show what he can do on the biggest of stages. If Tampa stops Primeau, they win Game 7 easily, If they don't, the Flyers win. Without Primeau, this series would have been over in 5 games.

An underdog often makes it to the finals, ie the past few years, but there is just something about Calgary. I didn't feel it from Anaheim, Carolina, etc. They just seem like a team of destiny.

[Leafs Suck]

Flames would have a chance of winning with the Flyers. Esche sucks, their D is dropping like Nortel stock, and Primeau seems to be the only one who is doing anything.

I cannot stand Tampa.

[Quebecois]

Sadly i'm cheering for Philly. I want to see two hockey cities fighting it out in the finals, Tampa is just pathetic with their Hulk Hogan celebrations and all.

I'm cheering for the Flames all the way though, should be an exciting final no matter what.

[Ribeiro]

I cannot stand Tampa.

I was just about to post that exact same thing.

Damn Tampa.

What bothers me is that they don't deserve to be in the Stanley Cup Finals. It has to end for them - it has to.

Philadelphia is a better team, even without Eric Desjardins.

The Tampa Goals are just so damn lucky. Give me a f*cking break. 5 secs left and Lecavalier tips it in for the tie.

Nikolai Khabibulin is playing the series of his life.

I can't stand Tampa Fans, most of them probably only watched hockey for the past 2 months. (I commend them for low ticket prices though).

Aside from St. Louis and Lecavalier, they don't have many stars. And Lecavalier is so damn overrated, people act like he's Lemieux or something.

I can't believe Montreal lost to them! To Tampa! To the Light Bulbs! That's unbelievable. :nono:

I wouldn't have mind losing to the Devils since they are proven Champs or even the Flyers, since they are suppose to be better than the Habs - but TAMPA BAY!? :puke:

This is ridiculous...Tampa Bay in the Conference Finals. It ends now, or it signals the armageddon of the NHL.

[Fanpuck33_]

I will never understand how you still think Tampa is overated. They finished 1st in the East, no small feat. Leclavier is overated, but not for much longer. He is finally coming into his own and establishing himself as a star. They are clearly better than Montreal, hands down. I would take their top 2 scoring lines over ours and Sydor and Kubina over any of our D. And Khabi and Theo are about equal.

They beat us, fair and square, get over it.

[Ribeiro]

They finished 1st in the East, no small feat

Tons of teams finish 1st in division but suck. The Mariners in Baseball (much harder than hockey considering number of games played), the T-Wolves (look where they were last year), and The Canucks are regular season greats.

In short - it means jack shit.

And Khabi and Theo are about equal.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Okay - no need to reply to the rest of your message after that quote.

[Fanpuck33_]

Originally posted by Ribeiro

And Khabi and Theo are about equal.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Okay - no need to reply to the rest of your message after that quote.

I love Theo and all, but you can't deny the Khabibulin is also a great goaltender.

Theodore has a career .914 SP and 2.54 GAA.

Khabibulin has a career .910 SP and 2.61 GAA.

No big difference there, especially since Khabi has been around longer.

Let's compare playoff stats:

Theo's GAA is 2.54

Khabi's is 2.36

I see no reason to say that Theo is so much better than Khabi.

In short - it [winning the conference] means jack shit.

True, but how many flukes win the conference? They may win a weak division, but not the conference.

[TheAussiePosse]

Agreed, Khabibulin and Theo are equal, and we're lucky to be able to say that. Theo just hasn't been able to play consistent, quality hockey for 2 seasons. Khabibulin at least has been motivated.

Tampa was the best team in the NHL, and somehow they don't deserve to be in the SC? What are you smoking? And whatever it is, can I have some too?

Sore losers are possibly the worst fans in hockey. Apart from Philly fans. And Leaf fans. We were beaten by a better team, because they capitalized on our screw-ups. 'Nuff said.

Go Flames

[Ribeiro]

I see no reason to say that Theo is so much better than Khabi.

You haven't been following hockey very long, have you? You completely take defense out of the equation.

Apart from Philly fans. And Leaf fans. We were beaten by a better team, because they capitalized on our screw-ups. 'Nuff said.

You're being a moron.

Anyone can tell you the Lightning fluking out is not good for the NHL.

Mistakes? Yes, winning with less than 5 seconds left is a mistake. They said that about the Wild last year - now tell me, where are the Wild?

No decent hockey fan will tell you the Lightning will get this far next year.

Flames vs Tampa - oh yeah, that spells "ratings". Florida - the Cup going there is going to be great for hockey, going to a state where nobody gives a sh!t. You're talking about "good fans", well good fans want what's good for Hockey not "Oh this team is good let's cheer for them!"

At least Canada will watch.

Tampa was the best team in the NHL

Based on what? There are plenty of better teams.

They don't deserve to be there, and anyone who actually knows hockey can tell you that.

The Stanley Cup Finals is left to the best teams, and the Lightning aren't the best.

Sore losers are possibly the worst fans in hockey.

That and fans who have no idea what they are talking about.

Now tell me, have you watched all the Lightning's playoff games?

What about last year?

A simple Yes/No will do.

[Edited on 2004/5/23 by Ribeiro]

[Fanpuck33_]

Now tell me, have you watched all the Lightning's playoff games?

It is not possible to watch every game, but I have watched at least one game every night during these playoffs, including the last 11 games Tampa played. Aside from 2 games, I feel that Tampa is the best team out there. They are totally solid. 2 great scoring lines, and good 3rd line, very solid D, and a great goalie. Calgary will beat them, but because of the intangibles.

You haven't been following hockey very long, have you? You completely take defense out of the equation.

I have followed hockey all of my life. GAA is effected by defense, but SP doesn't relate to D much at all. SP tells how many shots a guy stops, and Khabi's SP is about the same as Theo's. Theo was great in 2001-2002 and was pretty good this year. When all is said and done, Theo may end up being better, but not at this point in time.

No decent hockey fan will tell you the Lightning will get this far next year.

You keep trying to compare the Bolts to other flukes who had one good season. But you yourself have shown that Tampa showed signs of improvement in 2001-2002, and put up great record the past two years. That is not "fluking." With the team they have, unless they lose key guys to FA, I see no reason why they cannot put up another good season. They have been building for a while and the fruits are showing. They did not come out of nowhere.

And I think it is silly to call all Tampa fans know-nothings who are following the team just because they are in the playoffs. They averaged 91% capacity this season, only 4% behind Montreal, and 5% AHEAD of Boston. That tells me they have built a pretty good fan base, although not a great one. Hockey is young in Florida, give it time to grow. Isn't that what expansion is all about?

Flames vs Tampa - oh yeah, that spells "ratings".

Canada has extra incentive to win, but I agree Americans will have less viewership. Americans only watch teams they know like Detroit, Colorado, and New Jersey. Do you really want them in the finals every year just for US ratings? I certainly don't. And Americans may surprise, they may tune in to see if a Florida hockey team can really win.

[Edited on 5-23-04 by Fanpuck33]

[PMAC]

Riberio:

I understand your pain. I usually hate any team that beats Montreal in the playoffs, or trade, for years if not decades. I still dislike the Nordiques and NorthStars and they don't even exist as franchises anymore. I will always loathe the Avalance. I still hate the OIlers for the Eighties. I have HATED Calagary since 1989 and after this series I will continue to hate them. :mad:

I'm making an exception this time because my aunt, from Calgary has cancer and it is a dream of hers for the Flames to win the Cup again.

I cheered for Tampa to beat Philly only because I despise Philly and I hope they never win another cup until LeClair, Desgardins and Recchi are long retired. I don't think Philly is a bad team; I just want some revenge for the Rechhi trades. Now that the hated Flyers are out of the way, the world can return to its natural order and I can get a hate on for Tampa. I hope that you are right, and that TB falls flat next season.

My point is that its OK for you to hate Tampa, but dont try to convince everyone that they are a terrible and undeserving team. No sport has a playoff system more gruelling than the NHL. Conference champions deserve their victory.

There are three words that describe teams that win games at the end that they probably should have lost: fluke, winners, champions. As the old saying goes, good teams win games they should have lost.

[Ribeiro]

It is not possible to watch every game, but I have watched at least one game every night during these playoffs, including the last 11 games Tampa played

The question wasn't directed at you.

With the team they have, unless they lose key guys to FA, I see no reason why they cannot put up another good season

Them? Stanley Cup finals again - not.

If they win the Cup, it will easily be the worst year for hockey...ever.

Canada has extra incentive to win, but I agree Americans will have less viewership. Americans only watch teams they know like Detroit, Colorado, and New Jersey. Do you really want them in the finals every year just for US ratings? I certainly don't. And Americans may surprise, they may tune in to see if a Florida hockey team can really win.

Yes, it's good for hockey.

I don't want to see a fluke out like the Bolts playing for the Cup when better teams like Detroit and NJ (who had an injured Stevens) should rightfully be in that spot. They are the more talented team.

It's good for hockey and it's ratings. What's not good is a 2 year team that wins the Cup. And compare there playoff performance to last year - completely different team.

I understand your pain. I usually hate any team that beats Montreal in the playoffs, or trade, for years if not decades

Um, no - I've never liked the Lightning Bolts. I have no problems with teams that have beaten the Habs like the Devils who were truly the stronger team.

I still dislike the Nordiques

I don't.

Funny you don't mention New Jersey on your list, considering they have beaten the Habs, pretty badly.

I cheered for Tampa to beat Philly only because I despise Philly and I hope they never win another cup until LeClair, Desgardins and Recchi are long retired.

And you're a Habs fan? Dumping some great former Habs there.

Conference champions deserve their victory.

Anaheim? :?-

This isn't the NFL, teams just don't become elite so quickly.

My point is that its OK for you to hate Tampa, but dont try to convince everyone that they are a terrible and undeserving team.

How about they are? Since fans of the NHL (true ones) would much rather seen an actual elite team in that spot. I would be perfectly fine seeing the Devils there, or even the Wings (with Legace in net).

Let's be truthful, how many of us actually thought the Lightning were elite and would actually reach the Cup?

Honestly now - none of us? Thought so. Probably because they aren't that good.

:nono:

[PMAC]

First of all, I wasn't trying to make this personal. I was only trying to say that its OK to dislike a team, but it is not reasonable to expect everybody on the Forum to agree with you regardless of whose opinion is "right".

Secondly, I don't see any complaints about the Flames: how many people thought that Calagary is an elite team that would make the finals??!!!

How many people thought that the Flames would make the playoffs???

How many games was Calgary completely outplayed in these playoffs, only to win because of goaltending?

Finally, I find your questioning whether or not I am a Habs fan or a "true NHL fan" pretty offensive. There is nothing anti- habs about hating a TEAM that benefitted from the incompetence of the Habs former management. As to whether or not I am a "true" NHL fan, who gets to decide what makes a true fan? Everyone cheers for teams and the league in their own way.

[Fanpuck33_]

Originally posted by Ribeiro

This isn't the NFL, teams just don't become elite so quickly.

They didn't became good overnight. They have been builiding this team for years. The fruits of their labor began to show in 2001-2002 when they put up over 70 points. Then they continued to grow and develop guys like Leclavier into the team they are now, a team that put up 90+ points for 2 straight seasons.

Montreal in 2002 and Anaheim in 2003 were flukes. They rode hot goalies and disappeared the next season. Tampa was good last season and made it to the 2nd round. They came back, went out and got guys like Sydor and Stillman, and had another good season. Flukes do not have back-to-back good seasons. If anyone is the fluke here, it is Calgary. They have not had a winning record in years. But they too have shown improvement from year to year. The sign of putting together a good team.

better teams like Detroit and NJ should rightfully be in that spot.

You make it sound like teams like New Jersey and Detroit should play in the finals every year. New Jersey proved that without Stevens they are not a very good team, including Brodeur, who had terrible stats aftet Stevens went down. If Detroit is so great, why did they get beat by a team that hasn't made the playoffs in 7 years?

Who wants to watch the same teams every year anyway? It is good that new teams reach the finals, getting new fans interested in the game.

Let's be truthful, how many of us actually thought the Lightning were elite and would actually reach the Cup?

I actually predicted that TB would go deep into the playoffs. I saw promise in last year's team and kept an eye out for them this season early on to see if last year was a fluke. By about early December, I decided that Tampa was a good team that could go deep into the playoffs.

I will stop now, because there is no convincing somebody as stubburn as you.

[Ribeiro]

Secondly, I don't see any complaints about the Flames: how many people thought that Calagary is an elite team that would make the finals??!!!

With a great player like Iginla, they were bound to succeed at sometime, especially with the addition of a great young goalie.

And please, don't even try to compare St. Louis to Iginla if that is what you're preparing to do.

How many people thought that the Flames would make the playoffs???

Quite a few.

As to whether or not I am a "true" NHL fan, who gets to decide what makes a true fan? Everyone cheers for teams and the league in their own way.

You want what's best for the game - and the Lightning aren't.

New Jersey proved that without Stevens they are not a very good team

Wow! Really!?

Without their best player and captain they aren't as good?! Without their best defenseman, on a defensive team, they aren't as strong?! Who would have thought!?

I will stop now, because there is no convincing somebody as stubburn as you.

"New Jersey proved that without Stevens they are not a very good team"

Enough said.

[Fanpuck33_]

Originally posted by Ribeiro

[Without their best player and captain they aren't as good?! Without their best defenseman, on a defensive team, they aren't as strong?! Who would have thought!?

Since this is a somewhat differe t topic, I will continue the debate. One player should not determine a team's success. Didn't the Habs make the playoffs in 2002 without Koivu, and a team that nobody thought would do well? Didn't the Habs play well when they lost Souray, our best D-man till the break? One man should not make a team, except perhaps for the goalie. With as deep a team NJ has, they showed that they are nothing without Stevens.

And please, don't even try to compare St. Louis to Iginla if that is what you're preparing to do.

Um, didn't St. Louis lead the league in scoring? Isn't he the favorite for the Hart? Anyway, they are different players. St. Louis is a fast guy with good stick work. Iginla is a tough guy with a great shot. Both have great skills. Iginla has more overall skill IMO, but St. Louis is no slouch.

True NHL fans enjoy good hockey, and both Calgary and Tampa Bay play good, team hockey. TB may not be great for ratings, but I for one enjoy watching them play. Their style is much more exciting than the Habs.

Can you honestly say that Montreal is better than Tampa Bay? I would take their scoring lines and D-men over ours any day. Third line I liket TB, but not by much. I am torn at goalie, but I think Theo has shown streaks and has the potential to be better than Khabi.

Tampa built a good team the old fashioned way: using the draft and a couple good veterans in FA. That's more than you can say for Detroit and Colorado who buy success. Sure their teams are great, but it sickens me they way they get their teams. They are why the NHL needs some sort of cap.

[Edited on 5-24-04 by Fanpuck33]

[simonus]

Originally posted by Ribeiro

And please, don't even try to compare St. Louis to Iginla if that is what you're preparing to do.

Hey Ribeiro - its interesting to see you dis a undersized french canadian from montreal who has been underestimated and scored a bunch to become more integral to their team than anyone thought probable.

Why hate on lecavalier and st. louis? Perhaps they are getting too much credit right now, but somehow their team got to the finals and both those guys seem to be a large component of that success.

If montreal had reached the finals it certainly would have been above and beyond any legitimate expectation that habs fans could have had at any point during the regular season. I seem to remember a severe tampa bay run last year that left a lot of people impressed with them and others calling them a fluke for reaching the second round.... isn't 2003 the bolts fluke year?

Calgary could not have been considered a power team at the beginning of the season, especially when they had turek in net. I would generally refer to a team that made the playoffs for the first time in many years, with a mix of players that most have heard only little about, with a first time starting goalie, and a very high percentage of production derived from a very small group of players to be a 'surprise' team at the least. Especially when they are playing the eastern conference champions.

I don't think that fanpuck or any of the other debaters are arguing that the bolts are going to win 3 cups in a row or even three cup appearances in a row, but there is no reason not to believe that they could very well get over 95 points in the next full season.

The change in NJ without stevens was a snowball that kept getting greater as his absense grew longer. They very often did not even resemble the devils of old and brodeur often did not even resemble the brodeur of old. Certainly a team is less without a star player, but great teams could figure out how to beat some flukey wet-iced losers from florida... right?

I look around the league and I didn't feel so bad about the habs without koivu or souray, colorado without forsberg, kariya (and for practical purposes selanne), st.louis played many good stretches (about as well as one generally expects of them) without macinnis or jackman, the kings played remarkably well without allison,deadmarsh or half their team at any given point. If the devils are truly as bad as that without stevens then we might be witnissing the end of an era in the swamp, cause stevens isn't getting any better and will very soon be gone. And if the devils think that players like Jan Hrdina are going to patch up the franchise we might have some new dominance in the atlantic for some time to come. Who knows? maybe that pesky pavel pure injury has been holding back the rangers.

[Edited on 5/24/2004 by simonus]

[Leafs Suck]

Iginla and St.Louis are both top 5 players in the game today

Along with Forsberg, Sakic and Brodeur

[Fanpuck33_]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/playoffs2004...k_ej&id=1807577

This article shows that the pieces have been put togehter over the years and that a new GM came in and helped get this team turned around.

We can only hope that Gainey does as well as Tampa's GM. Gainey showed promise this year, picking up Begin and trading for Dowd and Kovalev. He also backed up Brisebois to the fans, a little bit like Tampa's GM told Vinny and Torterella to get along. I like what Gainey has done, and hopefully he will continue to improve the team and build us up like he did with Dallas.

[PMAC]

Stephen Brunt in the Globe & Mail http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...BNStory/Sports/

says:

" It's no fluke the Flames and Lightning are here. You don't win three playoff rounds on luck, or kismet".

[Fanpuck33_]

Originally posted by PMAC

" It's no fluke the Flames and Lightning are here. You don't win three playoff rounds on luck, or kismet".

Being a fluke isn't so much about luck as it is playing very well for a short period of time, surpassing the team's true ability. Wouldn't you call Carolina and Anaheim flukes? Both came out of nowhere to make the finals, then were awful the next season.

[Ribeiro]

Um, didn't St. Louis lead the league in scoring? Isn't he the favorite for the Hart? Anyway, they are different players. St. Louis is a fast guy with good stick work. Iginla is a tough guy with a great shot. Both have great skills. Iginla has more overall skill IMO, but St. Louis is no slouch.

Didn't Iginla win the Art Ross, Maurice Rocket Richard Trophy, and Lester B Pearson Award? Didn't he help Canada win the Gold Medal in the Olympics? Isn't he the Captain for the first Canadian team to play in the Cup finals since 1994? St. Louis lead the league in scoring - so did Iginla, he lead the league in points too

Iginla is a tough guy, with a great shot???! Yeah, that and he can skate, fight, score, and hit. Anything St. Louis can do, and more. Tampa will be lucky if St. Louis is half the player Iginla is - the best in the NHL.

If montreal had reached the finals it certainly would have been above and beyond any legitimate expectation that habs fans could have had at any point during the regular season.

I wouldn't be surprised. Montreal has had their best performances in the playoffs, and that's where they shine. Any Habs fan for over a decade could tell you that. Tampa - not.

Iginla and St.Louis are both top 5 players in the game today

Actually, according to many, many people like Hockey analysts on ESPN and CBC - Iginla is the best.

Calgary kicked Tampa's ass yesterday. Looks like Tampa's streak has just about run dry. 10 points in the last 11 games for Iginla - no knowing fan would ever dare compare St. Louis to him.

[Fanpuck33_]

Originally posted by Ribeiro

Iginla is a tough guy, with a great shot???! Yeah, that and he can skate, fight, score, and hit. Anything St. Louis can do, and more. Tampa will be lucky if St. Louis is half the player Iginla is - the best in the NHL.

Didn't I admit that Iginla has better overall skills? When I said he was a tough guy, I didn't mean he was Bob Probert with a good shot. I meant he was an elite power forward. The tough guy part encompassed the fighting and hitting, while the good shot took care of the scoring. I will admit I underestimated his skating, but only because I haven't seen him too much, except for the last round or so.

Didn't Iginla win the Art Ross, Maurice Rocket Richard Trophy, and Lester B Pearson Award? Didn't he help Canada win the Gold Medal in the Olympics? Isn't he the Captain for the first Canadian team to play in the Cup finals since 1994? St. Louis lead the league in scoring - so did Iginla, he lead the league in points too

St. Louis didn't lead the league in goal scoring as you implied, but did win the Art Ross. Iginla is a more complete player, but that doesn't take away from St. Louis, who at the moment is among the elite forwards in the NHL.

Tampa has more skilled players IMO, but Calgary has the heart of a champion, something Tampa did not show in game 1. If that changes, there will be no more 4-1 losses.