Scouts fired

[Zowpeb]

Clearly above league avg? Thats a joke right? The Habs will remain clearly above the league avg in and around the 7-10 spot in the standings too. PB is way to quick to accept mediocrity. Sorry but I want 1 of the best, and at this point you should all be realizing what I've been saying for over a year now that Tinnins isnt 1 of the best. Timmins is an idiot.

Balls, is PB an idiot too? Really makes me wonder. Theres absolutely no excuse for blowing so many high picks. It doesnt matter if some pics in later rounds turn out to be above avg players. All you are doing is keeping up with the Jones who arent stupid enough to waste their top pics. Advantage 0. PB is right it does amount to the saame thing, in something where you want to be further ahead of the game, not keep pace with your peers. The Habs need to be successful at both. Sure not in every draft, but c'mon. Spending over 50% of your pics on guys who are off to college for 4 years is brain dead. Did you see the Habs roster this year? Not 1 bloody NCAA alumni on it . Not 1!! Note: I'm talking NCAA pics the Habs actually drafted, Cammy doesnt make NCAA pics good, ask LA who had him for 2 seasons. I'll be surprised to see 1 next year too, and i bet that jack-hole wastes another 3-4 pics on em. To what end? Its really been such a huge success so far so why stop now? :puke:

Dont even bother saying Patches or OB are NCAA, theyre not. Sure they played in NCAA, but when a roster spot opened up they left NCAA ASAP. They were only in the NCAA so they didnt have to play in the ECHL. All those other guys are actually off to college and wouldnt come until they are finished 4 year programs = complete waste of time.

Timmins might have got lucky in some late rounds, unfortunately most of those rounds no longer exist so you probably shouldnt be holding your breath.

Sorry but I think you are so far off base it's ridiculous...

Such broad comments may be worth some smoke and mirrors to some but I think you need to do some research before you call out Timmins. The guys has drafted very well for the Habs.

How many picks were NCAA picks? Not as many as you may think if you bothered to review his picks...remember Higgins and Komisarek were before Timmins too. Of course, since your making up the rules as you go along and discounting some guys that played in the NCAA because it suits your argument it shows how poor your argument really is...

Let's review some of his picks since 2003:

2003 - A. Kostystsin (10), Lapierre (61), O'Byrne (79), Halak (271)

2004 - Chipchura (18), Grabovski (150), Streit (262)

2005 - Price (5), Latendresse (45), D'Agostini 190, S. Kostsytsin (200)

2006 - Maxwell (49), White (66),

2007 - McDonagh (12), Pacioretty (22), Subban (43), Weber (73)

2008 - Kristo (56), many too early to tell

2009 - too early to tell

How many scouting directors end up picking 3-4 guys in the draft EVERY year that play regular minutes (or clearly WILL for some of the younger guys like McDonagh, Maxwell, Kristo, etc).

You can ALWAYS argue that there were better players available in hindsight, 3-4 years LATER. The reality is that he has found guys like Streit, Halak, D'Agostini, S. Kostsytsin (whatever his issues he's got loads of talent for a 200th pick) in VERY late rounds. He did that 3 years in a row. I think you can also argue that Price, A. Kostsytsin, Latendresse, Subban are all fine top 2 round picks both when selected and in hindsight. I also think you'll be saying the same thing about Kristo in the near future too.

I included McDonagh simply because his value helped acquire Gomez...

How many teams pick 3-4 players consistently, every year, that make the NHL?

How many teams that are consistently picking outside the top 7 players draft legit superstars?

Everyone thinks the Red Wings draft well...review their picks and let me know how they compare: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00005492.html

How about NJ? They always seem to have good young talent right?

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00007066.html

How about Boston? They also seem to have a bunch of home grown youth every year...

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00004919.html

I really don't care if you want to bash the Habs scouting department but I hate seeing such ridiculous comments that have absolutely no basis in fact. You can say you don't like the style of player, or that you don't like their development, how quick they are rushed to the NHL, whatever...just be prepared to back it up with fact and logic. Saying Timmins is an idiot and has no track record is baseless.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Zowpeb

[Sir_Boagalott]

No really, Baseless is saying I'm so far off its ridiculous and I should be prepared to back it up with fact and logic then posting proof which backs me up.

Let's review some of his picks since 2003:

2003 - A. Kostystsin (10), Lapierre (61), O'Byrne (79), Halak (271)

2004 - Chipchura (18), Grabovski (150), Streit (262)

2005 - Price (5), Latendresse (45), D'Agostini 190, S. Kostsytsin (200)

2006 - Maxwell (49), White (66),

2007 - McDonagh (12), Pacioretty (22), Subban (43), Weber (73)

2008 -Kristo (56), many too early to tell

2009 - too early to tell

er...just. Saying Timmins is an idiot and has no track record is baseless.

Theres his track recod. Look at it, its far from great EH.

3-4 guys every year? Get real. Timmins may be the best at drafting players who play for other teams, but I dont giver a rats ass aboot that and am not giving him bonus points for getting other teams players. They need to play for the Habs, thats who he's drfting for. The majority of that list didnt work and and were shipped off. Horray for Timmins? Are you for real? Theres 6 guys in that list that worked out so good they are already gone and I bet theres still 2-3 more of them to be let go.

Timmins sure knows how to fill the Habs needs. Timmins track record clearly prooves that.

Seriously in the last 5 years I see 3 guys who will play for the Habs next year. Thats the truth. No clue what the hell you see in that list to think thats he's awesome at drafting. That list shows me the exact opposite of what your claiming and totally backs up what I said.

Lilke I said, shorter drafts, there'll be no more Halaks, Streits, S Kosts either.

So it'll be 2 years since the 08 draft and the Habs arent any closer to having any of them crack the roster next year, or the year after that. 3 Cheers for off to college for 4 years NCAA guys. Lets increase the 0 of therm that have worked out by upping the 50% of picks used on them to 75% or 100%. Thats sure to work out.

[JoeLassister]

No really, Baseless is saying I'm so far off its ridiculous and I should be prepared to back it up with fact and logic then posting proof which backs me up.

Theres his track recod. Look at it, its far from great EH.

3-4 guys every year? Get real. Timmins may be the best at drafting players who play for other teams, but I dont giver a rats ass aboot that and am not giving him bonus points for getting other teams players. They need to play for the Habs, thats who he's drfting for. The majority of that list didnt work and and were shipped off. Horray for Timmins? Are you for real? Theres 6 guys in that list that worked out so good they are already gone and I bet theres still 2-3 more of them to be let go.

Timmins sure knows how to fill the Habs needs. Timmins track record clearly prooves that.

Seriously in the last 5 years I see 3 guys who will play for the Habs next year. Thats the truth. No clue what the hell you see in that list to think thats he's awesome at drafting. That list shows me the exact opposite of what your claiming and totally backs up what I said.

Lilke I said, shorter drafts, there'll be no more Halaks, Streits, S Kosts either.

So it'll be 2 years since the 08 draft and the Habs arent any closer to having any of them crack the roster next year, or the year after that. 3 Cheers for off to college for 4 years NCAA guys. Lets increase the 0 of therm that have worked out by upping the 50% of picks used on them to 75% or 100%. Thats sure to work out.

1. I tend to agree with Zowpeb there !!! GM and coaching staff have the last word on who they're gonna pick and how they will developp them. NOthing to do with Timmins. Timmins job is to find good players, evaluate them and propose them to the organisation. Having all these players that have actually played in the NHL backs Timmins work, not your point. Chief Scouts don't have anything with knowing how to fill teams needs. GM and coaches adress their needs to the scouts.

2. In red, total BS statement. Shorter draft and there is no Datsyuk, no Zett, hell, no Luc Robitaille !!! Plus, who said that because they don't draft players means that they didn't scout them ? Shorter drafts = more UFA's signings and training camp tryouts. We would probably have Halak or Streit or S.Kost anyway.

3. Did you even bother take a look at Detroit's list Zowpeb posted ? Around the same number of players played in the NHL, the difference is that they are playing with the Wings. Some of them are flukes just like our flukes. I think you don't make the difference between drafting and players development and how they are fit into the team's philosophy and depth chart. This, is not Timmins job, and this is where we lacked in the last few years.

[Sir_Boagalott]

Not shocked. Everybody beleives the hype.

Timmins roxors, the Habs made the 3rd round, so Timmins must be awesome. The fact that theres only 2 guys from that list on the Habs that made a significant impact is what? a moot point?

Oh the Dogs, the Dogs. They went to the Caler Cup again. Horray Timmins.

51 David Desharnais 60 27 51 78 30 34 11 1 155 0.174

19 Brock Trotter 75 36 41 77 33 56 10 2 165 0.218

76 P.K. Subban 77 18 35 53 46 82 11 1 188 0.096

91 Ben Maxwell 57 16 28 44 11 22 5 0 134 0.119

15 Mike Glumac 75 20 20 40 27 70 4 1 195 0.103

20 Ryan Russell 74 19 18 37 16 8 1 3 149 0.128

10 J.T. Wyman 76 17 20 37 9 12 3 0 163 0.104

61 Andre Benoit 78 6 30 36 18 63 3 1 133 0.045

27 Tom Pyatt (X) 41 13 22 35 17 8 3 0 90 0.144

25 Ryan White 62 17 17 34 9 173 3 1 110 0.155

28 Aaron Palushaj (total) 62 8 24 32 3 30 1 0 106 0.075

Not only did Timmins have little to do with the Habs playoff success, his picks werent eve the ones responsible for the Dog success either. Timmins picked only 4 guys in the Dogs top 10 players, and thats great? Figure it out!!

3. Did you even bother take a look at Detroit's list Zowpeb posted ? Around the same number of players played in the NHL, the difference is that they are playing with the Wings. Some of them are flukes just like our flukes. I think you don't make the difference between drafting and players development and how they are fit into the team's philosophy and depth chart. This, is not Timmins job, and this is where we lacked in the last few years.

No I didnt even look, why would I? I dont need to look to know that Timmins isnt at par with the Wings. Keep dreaming. Stats can prove anything, espescially Timmins greatness. Want the stats on the money difference between the Habs picks and the Wings? # of 5 mil guys Timmins has drafted Plex, the Wings Still think Habs are even with Wings, look up playoff rounds won. Sure, we're even the Wings, keep beleiving that. What a joke.

[saskhab]

Of course, Timmins' scouting encompasses all amateur scouting, not just draft picks. He scouted and recommended David Desharnais, Brock Trotter and Cedric Desjardins as free agents, Ryan Russell as an unsigned draft pick target, and probably had a decent amount of input into young professionals like Tom Pyatt and Aaron Palushaj as well.

And to blame Timmins for the fact that NHL players are no longer in the Habs organization. His job is not to pick and choose which players to keep. His job is to find players.

I think Timmins has some faults: he likes projects way too much, guys who haven't played at a high level of competition (USHS, USHL, CJHL, lower Euro leagues). But he does find enough NHL caliber talent considering his draft position that it's hard to blame him for the team's failings. Those failings generally occur out of his scope.