Max Pac wants to play in Hamilton all season long

[Wamsley01]

An argument can made otherwise - as long as the player is practicing with the team, he still develops. I can think of a couple of cases - Alex Pietrangelo with STL the last 2 years who played his 9 games, sat for about 30, and went back to juniors afterwards. Also, Kyle Clifford and Brayden Schenn with LA this year, the former is expected to stick with LA and play about half the games at about 6-8 minutes per night...much to the chagrin of Barrie Colts fans like myself. But, it goes to show that there seems to be an evolving school of thought that sometimes practice time is enough to justify keeping a player around, even if he's not playing in-game.

Exactly. Practicing against Cammalleri, Gionta, Plekanec, Markov etc is not beneficial?

Access to Muller, Martin. Training with the elite trainers in the game.

If it was so elementary, we would all be running NHL franchises.

[l.moustakas]

Exactly. Practicing against Cammalleri, Gionta, Plekanec, Markov etc is not beneficial?

Access to Muller, Martin. Training with the elite trainers in the game.

If it was so elementary, we would all be running NHL franchises.

No kidding, eh? Even amongst our debating of the right way to develop a player, it is very difficult to pinpoint the best way to do so. Brian recently defended the merits of letting a player dominate in the minors before moving up but also recognizes the value in having players practice with the big team. Some feel playing time is key. Others feel that the choice of linemates (or D-partners) is paramount. And, I, well I frankly am not sure what my opinions are. But I'll figure out... then I'll run an NHL franchise (you just watch!)

[Habsy]

This thread has become bizarre. Considering it's about a Max Pac interview, that I heard on the team 990, where he said he'd prefer to stay in the minors. Why? To develop his confidence and skills playing top minutes. Nobody believes staying in the NHL has zero value. Nodody believes it's impossible to develop a fantastic career by playing 4th line minutes. It's just not the optimal approach. Seasoning is the minors is how Detroit, for example, prefers to operate. I'm no expert, but they've had more success then we've had. Is that debatable?

[Wamsley01]

This thread has become bizarre. Considering it's about a Max Pac interview, that I heard on the team 990, where he said he'd prefer to stay in the minors. Why? To develop his confidence and skills playing top minutes. Nobody believes staying in the NHL has zero value. Nodody believes it's impossible to develop a fantastic career by playing 4th line minutes. It's just not the optimal approach. Seasoning is the minors is how Detroit, for example, prefers to operate. I'm no expert, but they've had more success then we've had. Is that debatable?

No, but you are basing your decisions of zero information. This isn't a scenario where you make

decisions based on common sense, because your common sense is based on limited information.

Take this viewpoint from Apron Basu for instance when discussing Eller.

http://montreal.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CT...=MontrealSports

A big issue for Eller thus far has been his decision-making, and more specifically the speed with which he makes those decisions. Generally speaking, you have more time to make decisions on the power play.

Eller was obviously approached with the theory that he'd be better off in Hamilton at practice Wednesday, and Marc-Antoine Godin's piece for La Presse hit the nail right on the head as to why it's probably not a beneficial move for him.

Basically, if Eller's main problem is his speed in making decisions, how will he improve that playing in a slower league?

Does that make sense? 99% of fans like to simplify complex problems in order to come up with simple solutions.

You have no idea what Martin feels he needs to improve upon. He would likely be in the minors if he needed to improve

his commitment, attitude, strength, conditioning etc. He would likely be in the minors if they felt his experience was lacking.

Now this is the exact situation where a mainstream media source has culled the proper information to clarify the possible decision the Canadiens are making. This is where an access advantage has lead to a strong perspective and interesting viewpoint on the development choice of the organization.

Which brings me to my original point. Over and over again I hear fans complaining about development. Price, Latendresse etc. Too fast, not enough playing time, send him to the minors. It is all meaningless droning unless accompanied with reasoning that doesn't include a reference to another player who may have failed as the main point of proof.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Wamsley01

[bar]

I understand what you're saying about fans, me included, looking for the simple solution. I think these forums are more than just a place to have indepth analysis. Some fans just like to vent and grasp at the easy solution, because to be honest, what we say or do will likely never actually inpact the real team. Wammy, you and others go really indepth into your analysis, graphs, stats and all that, and I appreciate reading your guys' articles, but I rarely go that indepth with my armchair analysis, but that's ok because this is a discussion board not a print media where we have to fact check and have credible sources, we're all passionate fans, that let passion get in the way of reason (most of the time).

[Wamsley01]

I understand what you're saying about fans, me included, looking for the simple solution. I think these forums are more than just a place to have indepth analysis. Some fans just like to vent and grasp at the easy solution, because to be honest, what we say or do will likely never actually inpact the real team. Wammy, you and others go really indepth into your analysis, graphs, stats and all that, and I appreciate reading your guys' articles, but I rarely go that indepth with my armchair analysis, but that's ok because this is a discussion board not a print media where we have to fact check and have credible sources, we're all passionate fans, that let passion get in the way of reason (most of the time).

I don't have a problem with people submitting an opinion, but an opinion with zero research is as relevant

as me critiquing the decisions to award the nobel prize for physics.

If the solution was simple, then it wouldn't be a problem.

It's not about changing the real team, it is about progressing the discussion. Message boards are filled with

unsubstantiated opinion because you can maintain anonymity, but why wouldn't you want to set a reputation

of a trusted opinion?

Everybody rants. Everybody suffers from emotion skewing their opinion, but trying to eviscerate people with

10 times the information/experience as us with fairly strong resumes of success seems silly.

[Habsy]

Wamsley, you seem to have completely lost the plot. You're taking this all too seriously. Eller played in 7 NHL games in his life before this season. And lately, he's getting very little ice time. I have no problem offering the opinion that maybe more AHL time is needed. Especially when an actual pro hockey player like Max Pac says that's his ideal course of action. We're all aware that it's not an exact science. That's the point of sites like this anyway, an exchange of ideas, a rant here, a rave there. Just seems odd to dig in, and object to peoples ideas on player development.

[Wamsley01]

Wamsley, you seem to have completely lost the plot. You're taking this all too seriously. Eller played in 7 NHL games in his life before this season. And lately, he's getting very little ice time. I have no problem offering the opinion that maybe more AHL time is needed. Especially when an actual pro hockey player like Max Pac says that's his ideal course of action. We're all aware that it's not an exact science. That's the point of sites like this anyway, an exchange of ideas, a rant here, a rave there. Just seems odd to dig in, and object to peoples ideas on player development.

I haven't lost the plot. This discussion has been going on for 5-6 years.

"The Canadiens have ruined "insert player here" by doing "insert rushing him or refusing to give a chance here". "Insert zero reason here".

When somebody presents a plausible scenario why Eller could benefit from AHL time and not NHL time, then I will listen.

Max Pac says is not a reason. What is good for Pacioretty isn't necessarily right for Eller. This is a complex problem that changes

per individual.

[Habsy]

I haven't lost the plot. This discussion has been going on for 5-6 years.

"The Canadiens have ruined "insert player here" by doing "insert rushing him or refusing to give a chance here". "Insert zero reason here".

When somebody presents a plausible scenario why Eller could benefit from AHL time and not NHL time, then I will listen.

Max Pac says is not a reason. What is good for Pacioretty isn't necessarily right for Eller. This is a complex problem that changes

per individual.

For sure, that I agree with. When it comes to development, I suppose a plausible scenario is impossible to come up with as they're are no guarantees.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I haven't lost the plot. This discussion has been going on for 5-6 years.

"The Canadiens have ruined "insert player here" by doing "insert rushing him or refusing to give a chance here". "Insert zero reason here".

When somebody presents a plausible scenario why Eller could benefit from AHL time and not NHL time, then I will listen.

Max Pac says is not a reason. What is good for Pacioretty isn't necessarily right for Eller. This is a complex problem that changes

per individual.

100%. What gets me is that you hear BOTH claims: they ruin player X by 'rushing' him. And they ruin player Y by not playing him 20 minutes a night

There is reason to be critical of the Habs' development system during Rebuild 1.0 when guys like Komisarek, Higgins, Sergei Kostitsyn, Latendresse, Ribeiro and several others passed through town with mixed results despite the franchise pinning all its hopes on them. But we also have to realize that practically the entire system has been rebooted - from the head coach to the players to the Hamilton staff and even the GM. Looking at things right now, we see Price, A. Kostitysn, Pouliot and Lapierre playing some of the best hockey of their careers, as well as PK Subban flourishing and Pyatt and Eller remaining competitive while learning the ropes. (We also saw Pleks bounce back from that catastrophic 39-point season, but I guess that doesn't count?). The preliminary evidence after the massive reboot of '09 points in the direction of good player development. Fans need to stop approaching things from a massive pre-given bias (as in, Martin is evil! Or, the Habs managemetn sucks!) and try looking at the situation NOW. And right now, things seem to be in solid hands.

Edited November 12, 2010 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber