Lineup when Koivu & Kilger returns

[Bonavistaman11]

What's gonna happen to the lineup when both Koivu and Kilger are ready to go?????

My opinion:

First of all they have to send some bodies down to Hamilton. I'd go with, Begin, Higgins, Dwyer, and either Hainsey or Komi. Right now it seems like Komi will be the one.

Then the tough part, figure out the lines.

How can you break up the top two lines when they are both playing so well? Where will Julien put Koivu?

Well obviously he'll put his #1 center on the top line but who with?

i would go with 3 scoring lines and a checking line.

Zednik-Koivu-Ryder

Hossa-Ribeiro-Ward

Kilger-Perreault-Audette

Sundstrom-Juneau-Dackell

Rotate Langdon, Dackell, and Sundstrom depending on who the team is playing.

Its gonna be a very tough decision. I cant wait for Saku to come back, but i hope the line juggling doesn't hurt the teams chemistry. if we lose to the Lowly Pens on Thursday night, maybe the team is better off without Koivu (not a chance).

I guarantee a win thursday night!

:ghg:

Edited title

[Edited on 2003-10-23 by sakiqc]

[Zowpeb]

No Bulis???

I think we'lll see this for our lines:

Bulis-Koivu-Ryder

Hossa-Ribeiro-Zednik

Sundstrom-Perreault-Audette

Kilger-Juneau-Dackell

I also think we'll see Dackell moved before long...and Ward will take his spot. I hope, and think, this will happen within a month or so...

Audette and Ryder may get switched around...but I think Ryder plays with great energy and has a good shot. He certainly deserves a shot on this line at least...better to try it against the Pens than anyone else.

Ribs line will not change. It's been the same for much of pre-season, the first few games and the end of last year. Don't see any reason for them to change it now...especially since it's clicking.

Perreault needs a defensive guy like Sundstrom on his wing. Sunny is also a decent playmaker so him and Perreault may click.

That is one expensive 4th line...at least as far as 4th lines go.

[ch_nl]

Koivu is the first line center.

But Perreault, Audette and Ryder is doing pretty well.

Zednik is alos first line material.

My guess:

Bulis - Koivu - Zednik

Ryder - Perreault - Audette

Hosssa - Ribeiro - Sundström

Kilger - Juneau - Dackell

[TheAussiePosse]

With the success that the Ryder-Perreault-Audette line has been having lately, I wonder why someone would want to break them up?

However, I agree with demoting Begin, Higgins, Dwyer and Komisarek (until injuries bring him back up).

Bulis wasn't really clicking with Juneau and Dackell as well as he did with Koivu, so we'll transplant him to the top line. Then, depending on how Rib's line is doing, maybe reunite Zednik on the top line as well. Then replace Zednik with Ward, giving him a chance on a good line.

Bulis-Koivu-Zednik

Ryder-Perreault-Audette

Hossa-Ribeiro-Ward

Remaining is our defensive pair (Juneau and Dackell), and an open left spot. The remaining spot is left for Kilger (who can play LW), Sundstrom (who can play RW and LW) and Langdon (who doesn't care where he plays, as long as he has no less than 2 scalps by the end of the night).

Depending on the team, they will rotate in.

- Langdon for a team like Philly or Columbus, where we'll need an energy guy who can fight

- Kilger for a team like SJ or Buffalo where we'll need a physical body, but also a tad bit of scoring (who knows, it could be his lucky night)

- Sundstrom for a team like Anaheim or New Jersey, where finesse and smart defensive plays win the day.

However, Sundstrom doesn't play well with Juneau or Dackell, so maybe he can fill in for Ryder when he gets injured, or Ward, or whoever.

I'm concerned that Komisarek won't progress this season as much as we'd hope because he's sitting in the press box. I'd rather he lead Hamilton to vicotry again (or close enough) than overdose on beer and wings.

[Habs77]

I doubt Julien will touch the 3rd line, it will remain Juneau's line all year IMO. The wingers like Bulis, Sundstrom, Dackell might interchange according to performance.

All this is bad new for Ribeiro... because given the recent success of the Perreault line he's the one who would have to surrender his center spot for Koivu.

But there is philosophy that says you have to put your six best forwards on your top two lines... if we go according to that, Hossa is the one who's done the least on the top 2 lines and hence he should be the one to get bumped off when Koivu returns.

Since the Ryder-Perreault-Audette line is clicking for now, that would leave Ribeiro-Koivu-Zednik... or Koivu-Ribeiro-Zednik.

Could that line work? I wonder.

Some will say having both Ribeiro & Koivu would make the line too soft, too small to have much success.

But Perreault & Audette are just as small & soft, they're also slower... and they've been doing ok as far as I can tell.

Ryder & Zednik are both similar players, not big but solid and not afraid to get their nose dirty.

Could you imagine Zednik being setup by our TWO best playmakers all at once?.. Koivu & Ribeiro would make some nice passing plays between each other as well.

I'd give it a try, see what happens. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

But then what to do with Hossa?...

The fact is we have too many players, yet again, and I just hope Gainey doesn't let this situation fester once the injured return as AS did last year.

Trade them, buy them out, cut them... but Bob has to trim down this roster.

[ch_nl]

Look like I forgot about Ward.

But having Juneau and Dackell together seems to work. They are both solid on the defence and maybe we could play someone offensive along with them.

Ward? Kilger? Sundström?

It looks like we have a player to much. It's great when we have someone injuried but it brings problem when everyone's healthy...

[Bonavistaman11]

How could i forget Bulis, he's one of the best on the team!

Ryder and Perreault are having some good chemsitry but im thinking Koivu and Ryder could have better Chemsitry. Ryder gets in the corners and opens up room for players, if he could give koivu the room that he has been given Perreault it could be a dangerous line!

Not that i have remembered Bulis id go with

Zednik-Koivu-Ryder

Bulis-Perreault-Audette

Hossa-Ribeiro-Ward

Kilger-Juneau-Sundstrom

That still leaves out Dackell and Langdon.

Gainey needs to get rid of someone!

Penguins better look out tonight, habs are gonna roll all over em!

:ghg:

[Zowpeb]

A few things...

Hossa-Ribeiro-Zednik

Ribs and Zednik should stay togther...they have good chemistry. In fact, Hossa may not be putting the points up but I think he's played well. This line is playing well in general and IMO should be our second line. It did well at the end of last year, in pre-season and so far this year. Why would ANYONE want to break this line up right now?

Sundstrom-Perreault-Audette

This line is currently has Ryder on the left and is on fire. Ryder has done well but I think all the chemistry on this line is between Audette and Perreault while Ryder is just playing with high energy and creating opportunities. I think that by shuffling Perreault and Audette to the 3rd line we'll balance our scoring out. Put Sundstrom on their wing once Koivu returns...he's solid defensively and a good passer which both Audette and Perreault can use.

Kilger-Juneau-Dackell

This obviously would/should be our checking line. Another proven line for us.

Now for the Koivu line:

Bulis-Koivu-Ryder

Ryder is all about shooting the puck, playing big and creating chances. Koivu needs a guy like this on his wing. Both Ryder and Koivu would be better served playing with each other than Ryder and Perreault...IMO. Bulis brings some more size, defense and a good all around game to this line.

Now I think that if we do this we should see the 3 "scoring lines" get similar ice time. The "4th line" of Kilger-Juneau-Dackell should also get good minutes. Basically we could trot out 4 lines each getting similar minutes per game...or send out the line that is "hot" a few more shifts at the expense of whichever line is playing cold.

[Bonavistaman11]

I like those lines Zowpeb.

I highly agree that Ryder would be better with Koivu then Perreault. They played well together in training camp and julien had them together in the exhibition game against Ottawa when Koivu got hurt. It could be a dominant.

The habs have to go with the 3 scoring lines and a checking 4th line simply because they have too may "offensive" players.

:ghg:

[ch_nl]

All the youngsters that we hoped could play NHL-hockey has done so.

But that leavs us with a player to much.

Koivu

Zednik

Bulis

Audette

Perreault

Sundström

Dackell

Juneau

Kilger

Hossa

Ribeiro

Ward

Ryder

Begin

Langdon

Thats FIVE lines. Who's untouchable and who's not?

Try to trade Dackell, Sundström or Kilger?

Send Hossa to Hamilton?

[Bonavistaman11]

untouchables:

Koivu

Bulis

Zednik

Ribeiro

Hossa

Ryder

Ward

i think if a good deal could come up for any of the others, gainey would make it.

:ghg:

[ch_nl]

Hossa... Why untouchable?

From what I've seen Perreault, Dackell and Juneau has been among the best players so far.

[CerebusClones]

The Ribeiro line should be a lock. The line gets plenty of chances night after night, and should not be modified. Once Hossa wakes up, it will be very interesting to watch these 3 youngsters.

As for the rest, it really depends on Perreault. He's done well so far, but Koivu would probably do even better with Audette and Ryder. On the other hand, that line is successful so why break it up?

Juneau and Dackell are playing very well so far, so you can't really take them off the lineup.

Since no matter what we wont have a true first line, let's just get 3 second lines, and a strong defensive one:

Bulis-Koivu-(Ward/Kilger)

Hossa-Ribeiro-Zednik

Ryder-Perreault-Audette

Sundstrom-Juneau-Dackell

Unfortunately, that leaves Kilger or Ward and the 2 goons out of the lineup, but there is just no room right now.

So we have three lines who can all produce on any given night, and a very effective forth line. This is what we should have done last year, but the team was not united, and certain individuals would not accept their roles.

This could work this year.

[Habs77]

CJ is already having some problems making his lineup, with Koivu still out.

Sundstrom's injury gave Julien the opportunity to try Ryder on the 2nd line... which sent Bulis to the 3rd line.

Ryder has won his 2nd line spot now, and Bulis is now firmly standing in Sundstrom's spot... so Niklas has nowhere to go but the 4th line.

He must be pretty unhappy with the situation, he didn't look good last night... got 2 penalties.

When Langdon returns, perhaps as soon as Satruday... the 4th line should like Langdon-Begin-Ward and so Sundstrom might be out of the lineup all together.

The veterans who've been used to having their cozy lineup spots waiting for them when they returned from injury are realizing that with so many kids waiting for the opportunity to steal their jobs... they better stay healthy.

Even Koivu who's spot in the lineup is assured is eager to return while he sees Perreault & Ribeiro carry the offense.

As long as the team is winning it'll be ok, but if the team hits a prolonged dry spell... things could unravel.

When everybody will be healthy, the 4th line will be Langdon-Begin-Ward... with Kilger also rotating in.

The 3rd line will likely remain Bulis-Juneau-Dackell/Sundstrom.

That leaves 7 players Koivu, Zednik, Hossa, Perreault, Ribeiro, Audette, Ryder... who should all be playing on the top 2 lines.

If an new injury doesn't bail CJ out, Gainey will have to unload someone. I'd say Perreault because he's the only one of those 7 that is probably in his last season here, UFA at year end.

And unlike Audette, Perreault is tradeable.

But with the injury-prone Koivu and unproven Ribeiro, it sure is nice to have Perreault as an insurance policy.

But I'd still do it, trade Perreault.

Hossa prefers playing center, he could move there if Koivu or Ribeiro went down... or we have Plekanec or Higgins in Hamilton.

Hell I even forgot Kilger as an extra center now that Begin is here.

Perreault and one of Dackell/Sundstrom... that's who should go. This assuming we're stuck with Audette.

[ch_nl]

And I don't think that we have used Sundströms potential yet.

In my opinion Sundström is one of the leauges best defensive forwards. And I think that both Gainey and Julien is aware of that. Actually, a clicking Sundström should be Juliens dream...

Thats a reason why I don't think they will give him up.

We have to trim the roster as someone said but whom? I'd say Hossa.

Keep the second line intact with Ryder, Audette and Perreault as long as they produce.

Koivu is the capitain and belongs on the first line. Ribs and Zednik got things going and should be on the first line as well. Play Ribs on the wing.

Juneau are the third line center and seems to like having Dackell on his side but I think Dackell could be replaced by Sundström or Bulis if the time was given.

On the other side someone with a scoring touch should be placed. Bulis or Ward.

Begin and Kilger on the fourth. With?

So... Here's what I want to see the day when everyones healthy:

Ribeiro - Koivu - Zednik

Ryder - Perreault - Audette

Sundström - Juneau - Ward

Kilger - Begin - OPEN SPOT

That means that Bulis and Hossa are out.

Both should have some value.

Dac

[Bonavistaman11]

Bulis and Hossa out in favor of guys like Sundstrom, Audette and Ward?

The teams objective is to try and get better, not go straight to the bottom of the league.

Why are a lot of people giving up on Hossa, he's only young, he's big. he's fast and he's strong on the puck. He has a lot of potential. Especially on one of the top two lines.

begin is making more and more of an impression on me every game, he gives the team and fourth line a ton of energy!! Something the team needs bad.

:ghg:

[Habs77]

Sundstrom is in his last contract year, and he makes 1.95M in this the last year of his contract.

As part of the Hackett trade San Jose is picking up 25% of his salary... so he's costing us 1.46M.

I very much doubt the Habs will want him back at 2.2M, which would be the qualifying offer.

Plus we'll have Higgins and perhaps Perezhogin trying to crack the lineup next year... and we're already having a hard time finding a spot for him in the starting lineup NOW.

Sundstrom will be let go, as will Juneau, Dackell, Perreault and Quintal... and hopefully with only one year left the Habs will be able to buy out Audette

Bulis and Hossa are just as good defensively, younger, bigger, more physical, better offensively, and cheaper.

No way should they be bumped in favor of Sundstrom.

Next year the lineup might look like:

Ryder(605k)-Koivu(4.25)-Perezhogin(1.075M)

Hossa(1.075M)-Ribeiro(847k)-Zednik(1.85M)

Higgins(1.075M)-Kilger(800k)-Bulis(1.15M)

Langdon(500k)-Begin(400k)-Ward(750k)

Markov(1.3M)-Rivet(2.5M)

Souray(1.6M)-Komisarek(1.075M)

Hainsey(1.075M)-Brisebois(4M)

Theo (5.5M) & Garon (1M)

That lineup totals a payroll of 32.4M, but this is with this year's salaries... and without the bonuses.

[ch_nl]

Could have been the Bulldogs.

I don't really buy the concept. Young players need veterans around them in order to develop.

We can't just throw guys like Perreault, Sundström, Quintall and Audette away.

Perreault... Just don't like the idea of having him on another team. Sundströms sallary might be to much but I have a feeling of that Sundström will surprise many people this year.

Keep Perreault as long as he is producing.

And why this talk about Kilger? Why the hype? He's big but I don't think that he has earned a spot on the first, second or third line... Yet.

Hossa hasn't either showed that he's top line material. Talented player like Hossa has to earn their spot just like everybody else.

And don't expect Perezhogin on the team next year. I think he needs at least a whole year in Hamilton to pick up the physical play.

[Zowpeb]

Well, CH_nl I couldn't disagree with a number of the things you said more...

While I agree that you need veterans around the rookies you need to remember that this team is rebuilding.

You don't like the idea of Perreault on another team? IT's fine that you are a fan of his but some Habs fans are taking this to the wrong extreme. I agree that it's nice having Perreault around while Koivu is out but let's face it, he's too expensive for a 3rd line center who is soft, not physical and plays no defense. There is no point having him around and playing a role he's not suited for.

I also don't think anyone is "hyping" Kilger. He is simply a physical player who plays a strong defensive game. He's ideally suited to the third line. I don't know if I'd have him as a RWer like Habs77 had but he is a 3rd liner...

I agree about Hossa...he needs to earn his minutes. He's showing he deserves his 2nd line time right now. I'm not personally as high on him as some but he's doing well so no worries.

As for Zhog, he is in the AHL this year...only problem I have with slotting him in as our top line RWer next year is that I don't think he'll ever really be a true top line RWer. I hope he proves me wrong. You may have been thinking of Kastsitsyn needing a full year in the AHL. He is definitely top line material and probably needs a year in the AHL next year.

Let's face it. We don't want a high payroll next year with the lock-out looming. If we can keep our payroll in the low 30 million range that's fantastic for next year. Our younger guys will also be able to play in the AHL and continue developing...

[ch_nl]

When you put it like that... I'm about to agree. On most of the parts.

But I don't think that we can have a team with ALL thoose prospects on the lineup that soon.

And I can't help that I like Perreault.

But I do think that there's a hype on Kilger. I can't say that I have seen Begin more that a few minutes but right now I think Begin has been better than Kilger use to be.

[Habsaku]

As for the rest, it really depends on Perreault. He's done well so far, but Koivu would probably do even better with Audette and Ryder. On the other hand, that line is successful so why break it up?  

Because it could be better like you said and Perreault is our most inconsistent player.

But I do think that there's a hype on Kilger. I can't say that I have seen Begin more that a few minutes but right now I think Begin has been better than Kilger use to be.  

What??? First you defend our ultimate softie and now this, you don't even put our fastest most energetic player(Bulis) and want to get Hossa out? I like Begin a lot but theres no way in hell I'd take him over Kilger. Remember when we just got Kilger? He was good in Edmonton(too much $$ for them) and when he came here he hit everything and even showed his scoring abilities, his only problem is the same as Hossa: Confidence. Teams have ruined him because of too high expectations, CJ is the perfect coach for him. He's already a hard hitter and a good defender, so why not mold him into our speedy gritty third line checker with some offensive upside.

Now about Hossa, could you please forget his last name for an instant? I'm sure if you get him off that line and replace him with someone like Audette, that line will be crap. Hossa is the only one who battles along the boards and hits sometimes. He looks slow and lazy, but its for the same reasons as Sundin, hes got long strides. He just needs to learn by playing and sending him down or benching him will only destroy his developpement. Its that type of mentality we've been enduring for years and I'm tired of it.

SO WHAT if we have lots of young players in the lineup, our veterans have been awfull for the past 5 years and they are not getting younger. Lets finally have some balls and do whats right for the long term(i.e. lynching Perreault).

[ch_nl]

I don't know which Perreault you're talking about. The one that I like so much is Yanic Perreault.

A guy who had 46 points last year and 56 the year before that.

And now he has 5. Only Ribs are ranked higher...

And by the way, the year he had 56 he only played in 73 games.

And the last time we was in the platoffs the same guy had 8 points in 11 games.

I'd just wanna make sure that we are talking about the same guy...

[ch_nl]

And yeah, Kilger is overrated by some.

I am not saying that Kilger is a bad player but I think he belong on the fourt line.

We traded him for Zholtok.

Kilger has so far given us 64 points.

Zholtok has managed 101 since he left Montreal.

It wasn't an awfull deal but couldn't we had got something better if we would want a physical player?

And about Bulis... The reason why I left Bulis out is because I think he might have some trading value. And I can't find I suitable spot on top two lines since I don't would like to see Perreault - Audette - Ryder splited.

And I think that Ribs could play on the wing with Zednik and Koivu. And Bulis doesn't click with Dackell and Juneau.

[Bonavistaman11]

I agree with Habsaku about Hossa..

i think most people think the habs have Marian and the expectations are too high.

he wont be as good as his brother, but he's good alnog the boards and is capable of getting 25+ goals at least.

He's gaining alot of experience on the line with Ribs and Zed.

:ghg:

[Zowpeb]

Well, the Perreault who you are so quick to point stats out about will not get nearly the playing time to get his 45-55 points with Koivu and Ribeiro ahead of him. He disappears for many games at a time...and usually has quick starts and fades. For a guy we will have as a 3rd line C he is too soft and plays poor defense. We don't need that on our 3rd line...we need guys who are responsible defensively and don't make mistakes. We could trade Perreault for a better wing option with Koivu and put in a more suited 3rd line C who will also probably be cheaper. Bulis or Kilger could be that C...

I don't really know where you are hearing any of the "hype" on Kilger but I'd love if you could post a link or direct me to it so I could laugh at the person directing this hype. I don't see it anywhere. You however, are not giving him the credit he deserves. You can't compare him to Zholtok who has received some top minutes on expansion clubs while Kilger has played 3rd line for us. Do you honestly think any team would give up more then a guy like Kilger for Zholtok??? Zholtok = Petrov = mediocre 2nd line guy.

You also don't think Bulis did well with Juneau and Dackell? Do you realise this was our checking line and these guys played probably the most minutes(maybe 2nd most of forwards) per game for us 2 years ago? I'd say there is no problem with their chemistry...it's that Bulis is the best LW on the team right now and deserves to be on a better line.

You want to put Ribs on the wing with Zed and Koivu? The same Ribeiro who is excelling as the C for Zed and Hossa. The same Ribeiro who disappeared when put on the wing the past couple years. All of this you seem to want to do so that we can let Perreault play on the 2nd line apparently.

Why do all Perreault fans seem to put his status above the team overall? We had the same problem when the trade Petrov discussions started a couple years ago. I'm not saying that Perreault is a bad player...I'm saying he is not suited to a 3rd line role and he's got some value. He's therefore expendable and his value would be better used in a trade to fill another hole on the team.