ch_nl Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Am I just blinded by the fact that Peter Forsbergs is the best swedish hockey player ever (Sorry Börje Salming) or is Peter Forsberg the greatest of all time? I asked myself why Peter Forsbergs is better than Wayne Gretzky (who is common knows as the best of all time). And here's what I came up with. 1. Gretzky had his best during the 80's in Edmonton. But the game was different then. Nobody touched Gretzky and goaltenders level was weak from time to time. 2. In the second half of his career he didn't dominate the same way he did in the early years. Gretzky was a fantastic hockeyplayer but I wonder how well he would have done in todays hockey. Forsberg is the complete package. He does it all. And what if Forsberg would have been 15 years older? Off course it's impossible to compare. But I'm just saying that Forsberg is a heck of a player. Maybe the best. Or have I just insulted alla Rocket Richard fans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puck7x Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Mario Lemieux is the greatest hockey player ever. No contest , at least in my opinion. The guy is just dominating , he makes the game look so easy , everything is so slowed down for him... He maintained a 2 points per game average despite playing through loads of injuries (notably his back) , going through his cancer treatments , and playing with less talent then Wayne had .... (Jagr , Francis , Stevens , etc. we're pretty good though , not knocking them , awesome players! ... but compared to Kurri , Messier , Coffey , and company , its tough) ... Heck Even after the stars left Pittsburgh , Mario kept producing... Mario , unlike Wayne kept producing at his same level of play as he got older... Heck when Mario returned to the NHL a few years ago he was still getting 2 points per game while most teams were struggling to get 2 goals a game in todays NHL ... He's just that good. If you pro rate Mario's stats over a full injury free career , then he's clearly the #1 player statistically of all-time. Its a shame that we were never able to see it happen... I'm not trying to knock Wayne btw , I'm just a huge Lemieux fan. Forsberg? pfft... Right now is Forsberg the best?... forsure! He's in a class of his own. But their have been so many great players in the NHL that you have to consider. [Edited on 2004-2-2 by puck7x] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs77 Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Agree with puck, Lemieux hands down. Just a shame he barely had a handful of years of good health... the rest was done despite cripling injuries. Forsberg is the best there is today, and I appreciate that he can bring the physical game on top of his amazing offensive skills... but he has also played on one hell of a team, and only led the league in scoring once. While Gretzky did it 10 times, Lemieux 6 times with the limited health he had, even Jagr has it 5 times. So best player of all time?... I don't think so, not even close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quebecois Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Forsberg is todays best player, but not even in the top 10 all time, probably not top 25. I know he is a playmaker first and foremost, but he has never hit past 30 goals in a season, his top point toal is 116. Forsberg just can't compare with the Lemieux's and the Gretzky's. I think its really a three horse race between Lemieux, Orr and Gretzky for the top player of all time. I really can't rank these guys, but at least Gretzky got a shot to prove himself with a relatively injury free career. Lemieux and Orr both had their careers cut short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habitual_hab Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Although he retired before I was born I'd have to say that the greatest is the Rocket himself, Maurice Richard. Besides the 8 Stanley Cups, 50 goals-in-50-games, and the 14 All-Star appearances he garnered in his career, the fact that he accomplished what he did while being a marked man and never backing down makes the "power forwards" of today look like Lady Byng candidates IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs77 Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Originally posted by habitual_habAlthough he retired before I was born I'd have to say that the greatest is the Rocket himself, Maurice Richard. Besides the 8 Stanley Cups, 50 goals-in-50-games, and the 14 All-Star appearances he garnered in his career, the fact that he accomplished what he did while being a marked man and never backing down makes the "power forwards" of today look like Lady Byng candidates IMO. Tough to compare different eras, and different style of players from the strictly talent no brawn like Gretzky, to the tough as nails/scoring machine Rocket Richard. But talk about being on a stacked team, as the Habs were in those days. I still like Lemieux as my #1, then Orr/Gretzky at #2... then I don't know in what order you want to put the rest. But it's all so subjective... and hard for those of us under 30 who didn't see many of the old greats with our own eyes. But I think it's safe to say Forsberg isn't the best ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonavistaman11 Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 It's way to hard to say who was the best ever, simply because they were all playing in different eras. But i would say Lemieux as well, because i think he could have scored at will in any of those eras, because he had the size and if wanted to he could handle himself. Gretzky i think was lucky that he got a chance to play in the offensive era because he'd be pummled in today's game and probably the same when Rocket played. Because of the Instigator rule the Coach wouldn't allow a guy like Semenko to go out and Protect his star because it would be hurting the team. There's no doubt that Forsberg is the best now, but not the best ever. :ghg: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch_nl Posted February 3, 2004 Author Share Posted February 3, 2004 Not even top 25? Hmmmm... Put todays Forsbergs in Orr's Bruins and I think that the history would have been different. But I can agree with Mario. He is awesome. But I just migh think that Forsbergs is a more complete player. In my opinion Fedorov and Forsbergs are the two most complete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonavistaman11 Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 I agree with Forsberg in the top 25, I would even say top 15!.. I also agree with Forsberg being a more complete player then Mario, but has nowhere near the offensive capabilities of the Magnificent one!. As for Fedorov, thats a whole different story... I think he's a great player, and i would love for him to be on the Habs, but when you talk about the greatest of all time, i cant imagine Fedorov's name being mentioned. :ghg: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quebecois Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Well it's completely different eras, but here are 25 guys i think are better than Forsberg as of right now. Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe, Richard, Lafleur, Harvey, Beliveau, Morenz, Bourque, Messier, Yzerman, Brett Hull, Bobby Hull, P. Esposito, Dionne, Clarke, Bossy, Mikita, Potvin, Robinson, Lindsay, Shore, Trottier, F. Mahovlich It's debatable. You could argue a few of these selections for sure, you could also argue a few other players that maybe should be in this category. Forsberg might be in the top 25, but he is not in the top 10 all-time right now, that's for sure. He does have a pretty good chance to improve of course, because he is the best player in the game and he should be able to keep this up for many more years (if the retirement rumours are false) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch_nl Posted February 8, 2004 Author Share Posted February 8, 2004 Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe, Richard, Lafleur, Harvey, Beliveau, Morenz, Bourque, Messier, Yzerman, Brett Hull, Bobby Hull, P. Esposito, Dionne, Clarke, Bossy, Mikita, Potvin, Robinson, Lindsay, Shore, Trottier, F. Mahovlich That's a verry typical american answer... ONE european players among those 25. Hockey is being played in Finland, Czech Republic, Sweden, Russia and Slovakia at a verry hight level. Remember that the CCCP beat Canada in the Canada Cup finals in 1981 with 8 to 1. And in Sweden we had a guy called Sven "Tumba" Johansson. He was a part of the national teams in golf, Soccer and icehockey. And he was capitain in all team. And the best. Americans hasn't even heard of him... Tretiak is common knows as the best goalie ever... Ever heard of "Honken"? Börje Salming has played 6 All-star games. So has Guy Lafleur, Larry Robinson and Ken Dryden... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zowpeb Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 Longevity of career HAS to play a factor in determining the best ever...and that's where Lemieux loses out to Gretzky. Gretzky is the best ever...period. It shouldn't even be debated. Even in the hey day of the 80's scoring Lemieux couldn't crack Gretzky's numbers. As for talent around him...it could be argued that Lemieux had as talented players around him. Jagr and Kovalev are VERY good players. Hell, Jagr won the Art Ross without Lemieux around so he is/was better then "decent". Gretzky's linemates weren't exactly incredible either IMO. Kurri?? Sure he was good but he wasn't Jagr. McSorely?? LOL. Messier wasn't on Gretzky's line all that much really... Best goalie ever is Roy IMO. Dryden, Sawchuk come close in arguments. Brodeur may one day take that claim and an argument can already be made I guess. Tretiak(sp?) was good but it's tough to rate him as best ever when he didn't play in the most talented league in the world. Not trying to knock european greats who never played in the NHL but the overall talent level wasn't nearly as good so it's hard to say they were best ever... As for Foppa...he's probably the best all around player in the NHL today but I'd say he's probably around 23rd best all time. If he stayed healthy long term then he'd be able to move up any lists but it ain't happening so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quebecois Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 ch_nl, i should have clarified that i meant just NHL players. I have not had much exposure to the european game, so my list did not include many of those players. Throughout it's history, the NHL had been dominated by North Americans. But in the 90s it all changed. So in the next 20 years or so there will be loads more europeans that i will consider in the top 25, top 10 ect. I also should clarify that i wasn't going to rank any goalies. How do you compare Roy to Forsberg or Hasek to Yzerman? Impossible. Börje Salming has played 6 All-star games. So has Guy Lafleur, Larry Robinson and Ken Dryden... Robinson won 2 Norris trophys, something that Salming did not win so the All-Star appearances are basically meaningless. Pretty tough to compare a D-man with a forward, but Lafleur won 2 MVPs. Again, i apologize for my lack of knowledge of the european game. I do believe i listed 25 players better than Forsberg. If you include non-NHLers maybe that list rises to 35 or 40? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habitual_hab Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 Originally posted by ZowpebLongevity of career HAS to play a factor in determining the best ever...and that's where Lemieux loses out to Gretzky. Gretzky is the best ever...period. It shouldn't even be debated. Gretzky (and Lemieux) were able to accomplish their feats in an era of watered down talent. Sure, Gretzky and Lemieux were hacked, slashed, grabbed and held by opponents to slow them down. But Richard accomplished what he did in a six-team league where his opponents thought it was their sacred duty to either decapitate him or to try and pummle him senseless with their fists. His accomplishments as both an individual player and as a team leader speak for themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puck7x Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Originally posted by ZowpebLongevity of career HAS to play a factor in determining the best ever...and that's where Lemieux loses out to Gretzky. Gretzky is the best ever...period. It shouldn't even be debated. It can be debated , and it has. And I'm not going to debate it anymore. I guess it all depends on what your definition of "best ever" is , according to you a factor in it is longevity , which involves a lot of luck (to stay healthy) ... My definition of "best ever" is the best player that I have ever seen play ... And thats Mario Lemieux. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leafs Suck Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 As far as talent goes Bobby Orr was the greatest defenseman ever and Mario Lemieux was the greatest forward ever Forsberg is prolly the best Swedish born hockey player ever. Tumba Johansson, Salming, Hedberg, Kent Nilsson and Nicklas Lidstrom would be right up there too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch_nl Posted February 10, 2004 Author Share Posted February 10, 2004 Hedberg?! And Magic Nilsson. Håkan Loob, then? The only player that has won it all. The World championship, Stanley Cup and the Olympcis as a player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leafs Suck Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 I forgot Loob Must have had something to do with the 89 Finals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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