Leaderboard

sakiqc - I'm still confused! A theist that doesn't belong to any particular religion, do you mean? I agree with this. It's the CONTROVERSY thread. There's no point getting offended or offensive. Trizzak pretty much nailed what I would have answered. You acknowledge to your kid that there is nothing objectively better about the Habs. You simply pick a team that you're going to enjoy following the most and if that teams stops interesting you... you can always switch teams. In religion, it's very different. The penalty for apostasy in Islam is death. In my post above I cited a passage from the Old Testament that says the same thing for Judaism/Christianity. You also don't teach your child that if he gives up the Habs, he will go to Hell. You don't teach him that people that don't cheer for the Habs are sinners that will go to Hell. You don't teach him that his life will be empty and meaningless if he cheers for the Leafs. The abusive part isn't that you're passing on knowledge you believe to be true, it's that you're stunting their critical thinking abilities because of the nature of this knowledge. To be fair, the word "abusive" is harsh and a controversial choice but I do think it's abusive to teach your children delusional beliefs in the same way as it is abusive to prevent your children from learning to read, which incidentally if often the case for little girls in Islamic countries (Sam Harries cites that females under the Taliban had a 12% literacy rate, 44 year life expectancy, and one of the highest infant mortality rates in the world). Now before you jump on this - I am not saying that it is on the same scale as preventing your children from learning to read, only that it is harmful in the same way: it limits the development of the child's mind, limiting his/her potential in life.

Have you read the Old Testament? I'll provide you some quotes from the Book of Deuteronomy alone. 2: 31-35 And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land. And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land. And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain: Only the cattle we took for a prey unto ourselves, and the spoil of the cities which we took. 3: 1-7 Then we turned, and went up the way to Bashan: and Og the king of Bashan came out against us, he and all his people, to battle at Edrei. And the LORD said unto me, Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon. So the LORD our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining. And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many. And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities, we took for a prey to ourselves. 5: 17 Thou shalt not kill 7: 1-5 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. 7: 21-25 Thou shalt not be affrighted at them: for the LORD thy God is among you, a mighty God and terrible. And the LORD thy God will put out those nations before thee by little and little: thou mayest not consume them at once, lest the beasts of the field increase upon thee. But the LORD thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall destroy them with a mighty destruction, until they be destroyed. And he shall deliver their kings into thine hand, and thou shalt destroy their name from under heaven: there shall no man be able to stand before thee, until thou have destroyed them. The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God. 12: 2-3 Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree: And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place. 13; 1-5 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee. 13: 6-10 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 22: 23-29 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbor's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you. But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die. But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbor, and slayeth him, even so is this matter: For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her. If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. [A version of this is still sometimes practiced in Islamic countries today.] --- I will stop here. This was me being lazy, skipping many extra passages about destroying nations, stoning people to death, and burning altars. Try to imagine how many millions of murders have been justified by these passages. Sure, Jesus said stuff like the Golden Rule. He also said stuff like (Luke 19:27) "But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me." If you're picking and choosing which parts you want to follow, you can take some good lessons out of it. If you believe this book to be the word of God, which people do, you are bound to evil doctrines. As for the Ten Commandments, they only applied to other Jews, as was demonstrated in Deuteronomy ("Don't kill.... okay, now go kill those guys"). They also just happen to leave out slavery, genocide, torture, free thinking, cruelty to children, and other valuable moral guidelines. I am talking about what is tolerated in Islamic society that would not be tolerated in atheistic or Christian societies. It is widely believe in Islam that it is legal to beat your wife (provided you do it in the right way.) (4:34: ""Men are guardians of women because God has favored some more than others and because they spend out of their wealth. (In their stead) righteous women are devoted and to guard what God has guarded even though out of sight (of the husband). As for those (women) on whose part you fear ill-will and nasty conduct, admonish them (first), (next) leave them alone in beds (and last) beat or separate them (from you). But if they obey you, then seek nothing against them. Behold, God is most high and great.") The meaning of this verse has been disputed, but it is widely interpreted as condoning "light" wife beating by prominent Muslims and there are many examples just on YouTube. Even alternate interpretations usually say that it is talking about beating your daughter, instead of your wife. You can't be serious. I won't have children but if I did, I wouldn't indoctrinate them in any religion. I am in favor of comparative religions being taught in schools so that students learn about different religions and are allowed to make up their own minds. Many children howewer, go their whole lives without learning anything about other religions. This is abusive parenting, and propagates closemindedness. People should never speak of a "muslim child" or a "Catholci child." Children are too young to know what Islam or Catholicism are, what philosophical views are attached to the terms, etc. It would be like calling my kid a "Marxist child" or a "deterministic child." How is there no basis in fact that a devaluation of critical thinking is harmful to society? Faith is belief without evidence or reason. It is clearly opposed to criticical thinking. Sure. But having the beliefs in the first place is dangerous because it can, and often does, lead to dangerous actions. I don't mean dangerous in the sense that you (not you, personally) are violent and liable to physically harm people in your surrounding. Dangerous in that 1) you are unpredictable, as was pointed out above, as almost anything can be justified by passages in scripture and 2) you spread the potentially dangerous ideas around. I'm sure the Koran does ban suicide. But it also (along with the Hadith) has passages like this: "Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward. [4.75] ...fight in the way of Allah... [4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Satan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Satan... [4.77] ...when fighting is prescribed for them...Our Lord! why hast Thou ordained fighting for us?" [K 4:074-077 Set 15, Count 38-41 ] Qur'an (2:207) - "And there is the type of man who gives his life to earn the pleasure of Allah..." Bukhari (52:54) - The words of Muhammad: "I would love to be martyred in Al1ah's Cause and then get resurrected and then get martyred, and then get resurrected again and then get martyred and then get resurrected again and then get martyred." Muslim (20.4635) - "Nobody who enters Paradise will (ever like to) return to this world even if he were offered everything on the surface of the earth (as an inducement) except the martyr who will desire to return to this world and be killed ten times for the sake of the great honour that has been bestowed upon him." Qur'an (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme." It is easy to justify suicide bombings with these passages. Admittedly, I should have used a more black-and-white example though.

I thought that this was the controversial thread--not the stating of uninformed opinions as fact thread. You are wrong on so many areas of fact and doctrine that I am actually not sure why I am even bothering to engage in this discussion; however, it would be a good idea to get your facts right. 1. "Religious people following religious doctrines is not in any way incidental. In condoning Islamic practice of the laws of the Koran, for example, you are directly condoning the suicide attacks that the Koran licenses. These attacks are not caused by misinterpretation of the text, they are caused by people correctly practicing Islam as the muslim religion understands it to be practiced". There is no licence for suicide bombing in the Koran. The Koran speaks of suicide as a grave sin. The wing nuts who advocate this are deliberately MISinterpreting a section on Jihad which allows for even haram (forbidden) approaches to be used in extreme circumstances. Please note that the use of any combative technique against fellow muslims and ANY non-combantants is EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN. To quote Billy Connoly, "suicide bombing! what a concept...everytime there is bang, the world is one wanker short...." 2. "I claimed that fundamentalism is harmful to society". Actually your examples demonstrate a more moderate idea...that acting on some fundamentalist beliefs could be harmful in some cases. 3. "Blocking stem cell research (one of the most promising avenues of scientific research available to us) is harmful to society". If its blocked, how do you know it is so promising 4. "Indoctrinating your children into a set of philosophical beliefs they aren't old enough to understand yet is abusive to them". Exactly what will you do when you have childern and they ask you about God? Send them to Sunday school? Tell them that all people with religious beliefs are potentially dangerous? What about Santa Claus? And how old is old enough and who decides if not the parents? 5. "Domestic abuse (Islam only) is harmful to society" . Are you actually saying that only Muslims can be guilty of domestic abuse or are you saying that domestic abuse is only harmful to society when comitted by Muslims? Either way 6. "Preaching the value of faith over critical thinking is harmful to society". Preaching the value of a psuedo-rationalistic view that completely rubishes faith is harmful to society. I too can say whatever I want without any basis in fact :-) That doesn't make it true. 7. "Making the lessons of the The Bible, a book that supports ethnic cleansing, slavery, misogyny, homophobia, etc., your moral center makes you harmful to society. Etc, etc, etc". What version are you refering to? Old testament? New testament? I can see how people who follow those reprehensible, degenerate, Christian views of " do on to others" and " turn the other cheek", are hamful to society. Yep. Do not kill, do not steal, do not covet your neighbors wife, honor your mother and father. Jesus! such dangerous depravity. Oops, I kind of messed up on do not take the Lord's name in vain, didn't I ? 8. ...to believe in "the main story": that Jesus was the actual son of God, that he was born of a virgin, and that he will be resurrected in their lifetime, and such similar things. Dangerous beliefs. Yes, my mother, devout Catholic that she is ...should be locked up for that...:-) You should give your head a shake...dangerous beliefs. The only dangerous belief is that of a person, or group, who believes that because they have some sort of priviledge-- be it education, faith, "scientific proof", political belief, etcetera that it is not only right but necessary for them to impose their will on others. Don't get the wrong idea.. monotheistic religion isn't my cup of tea either, but its not controversial to spew half true or false generalities as fact--unless you want a job on talk radio or Fox news. I would like to continue this discussion in a reasoned way--otherwise

It's waaaaaaaay more than the .01% you claim (more than 50% of Americans take every single word of the Bible as literal truth, for example) and the damages done to society are vast no matter what the actual percentage is. You only choose to count "the crazies," the type to blow themselves up or to protest at a gay soldier's funeral but I think even mainstream religious beliefs and practices are dangerous for society. If for no other reason, because the propagation of mass delusion is obviously harmful to the development of critical thinking abilities and because faith in a supernatural realm can be, and is routinely, used to justify outrageous and wicked things. Even mainstream religious beliefs negatively effect society significantly in several ways* and since 9/11 there has been a growing movement of the opinion that we don't need to, in the name of cultural relativism, respect beliefs and practices that are looking more and more liable to spell the end of mankind (Islamic doctrines on martyrdom and jihad + modern nuclear weapons). I think religious moderates like you bear a responsibility to stop waving away criticisms of religious practices and to take seriously the threat of religion on international security. When you make apologies for the "99.9%" of religious people, you are encouraging the suffering of millions. Ordinary religious people have, for religious reasons, committed genocides, tortures, rapes, honour killings, murders of homosexuals, human sacrifices, practiced slavery, systematically abused children physically and psychologically, genital mutilation of children, oppressed tens of millions of women, etc... Many of these practices are the norm in their societies. We are not talking about the fringes of religion here, we are talking about the systematically taught doctrines taken seriously by people who really believe what they say they believe and who number in the hundreds of millions, if not billions. The comparison to Habs fans is not apt because 1) the people that riot generally are not even Habs fans and 2) they are not rioting because of some message openly being preached to them by the Canadiens organization or the NHL. When religious people do evil things it is because of their religion. The doctrines themselves are evil. The extremists are not misinterpreting their texts or misusing religion. They are the ones following it correctly. *Further explanation forthcoming if asked of me.