xXx..CK..xXx

Great. Another player who has been shuffled back and forth between center and wing throughout his career. Wild fans were having discussions in 2014 about whether or not Coyle is better suited as a center or wing, and they are still having discussions in 2018 about the same topic. Of course, fans disagree but there seems to be a general consensus that Coyle is strong along the boards and that he has a higher ceiling as a winger than center. A small minority feel the opposite. Considering Coyle finished the season as a top line right winger and Matt Cullen was their third line center, I may have to agree that he’s not clearly a better center than winger. I think people are being too too generous and that Coyle is really a 3C at best (or a top 6 wing), who could be more than capable of filling in for a top 6 center who is injured.

I wasn’t going to post in this thread but I thought about the Cammalleri trade as well. It’s probably not the worst but when we talk about playoff performers, I haven’t seen better than what he and Halak put together for us. Some people on here didn’t like him, but he could be counted on in the “clutch” (playoffs) during his brief stint with us. He was the best playoff point getter at the time, and has not seen the playoffs again since being traded. That’s not to mention that we got lovely Team Canada caliber Bourque back as the return.

I feel like this ties in with the point I was trying to make about goaltending. Fleury has been the best goalie these playoffs and Vegas finds themselves where they are. Although with substantial help from Murray, he’s also made the final 3 years in a row. Obviously, solid goaltending can be a great recipe for success during the playoffs. I’m not sure I qualify Fleury’s playoff season as a goalie getting hot. I think he’s done well in quite a few playoffs now. Although he did have struggles early in his career as well. Marc Andre Fleury has a career regular season save percentage of .913. Fleury’s career playoff save percentage has remained .913. Carey Price has had a career regular season save percentage of .918. During the playoffs, Price’s numbers have dropped to .914 over his career. As a result, Price has outperformed Fleury in the playoffs when it comes to save percentage but don’t we expect Price to be more than .01 better than Fleury? Fleury has also maintained his level whereas Price seems to drop a little bit once the playoffs start. The Price “x-factor” comes into play only if he actually is the best goalie in the world. There are not many of the better goaltenders in the league who’s save percentage drop in the playoffs. Perhaps I am putting too much weight into Price’s early career struggles in the playoffs but I believe that should Price actually play up to his standard, our team should have a huge advantage, rather than assume “any goaltender can get hot and match his level”. The Rangers series may be an example that Price can play well and the Habs can still lose, but that was also against another generational goalie in Lundqvist. I’d be more inclined to state that more often than not, when Price does get matched in a series, it’s because he has not played up to his standard, not because the other goalie has gotten so hot to match Price’s level. With that being said, the gap is closing and especially after this season, it’s not entirely clear how much better Price actually is than the Holtbys and Fleurys of the league.

50 point seasons are long lost for David Desharnais. He had 28 points last year. Although I do agree after wanting him shipped out for about 3-4 years, he’d represent an upgrade on some of the shite we have up the middle.

There’s an obvious reason Montréal is in the discussion when it comes to Tavares. 31 teams will not make the same push as the Habs because they won’t be willing to make him their highest paid player, whether it’s because of cap space, already having a high paid 1C, or because they already have depth up the middle. Every team would love to have Tavares, but it doesn’t work that way. Montreal is on the short list even though there’s nothing guaranteed. I’ve always thought he was going to stay put with the Islanders.

I understood that that would be the response but it doesn’t change the fact that Vegas also had success when a grinder was on the fourth line, nor that the grinder himself has helped out the team.

Not entirely sure I agree that the Vegas formula debunks anything whatsoever. For all of what you said, they had Ryan Reaves on the fourth line, who in turn eventually scored the game winner. Reaves was also on Pittsburgh before in order to keep an eye on Crosby. Another theory has constantly been that Price being our X factor doesn’t pay dividends in the playoffs because another goalie can mitigate that advantage in a 7 game series. I give credit to Vegas as a whole, but I’ve been very impressed with Fleury throughout the playoffs and believe that he’s a major reason why they find themselves in the final. If anything this proves that the Habs can compete in the playoffs and that Price can be an important factor, he just needs to actually play to that level on a consistent basis. Fleury has played that way throughout the first three series’. I think the Vegas success has debunked the goaltending theory come playoff time. Or as I said, their success has debunked nothing at all. In any case, they haven’t won anything yet and if Tampa Bay do pull through, I do view them as an underdog heading into the final.

I dislike Bergevin, relatively speaking, but it gets tiring hearing the mistakes he might make rather than discussing the ones he already has made. What’s even more peculiar is that no one agrees on the mistakes he has made. There are groups of people who hate this move, but didn’t mind another, and then there are groups of people who disliked the move other people liked and vice versa. People want him fired. That’s fine. Making up futuristic moves that look bad and saying them out loud won’t get him fired though. Bergevin has been questionable, in my opinion, but our team isn’t the circus act some people describe. I want to wait until late August before I criticize Bergevin for another bad off season. It’s easy to say it’s too little too late, or whatever, but we don’t have the power to fire him and it’s also not true that he can’t right the ship. I personally sincerely feel that Bergevin could produce an effective team with some of the pieces we have, he just doesn’t really deserve that opportunity.

I’ve been on this board for more than 10 years and had never been downvoted prior to the Pacioretty and Subban discussions. In both cases, I’m defending my own team. (And I don’t feel blindly) What can ya do?

The only issue I have is people constantly repeating that there was no reason for the move in the first place. It’s simply possible that there were indeed actual valid reasons for the trade. Shea Weber has just as much pedigree as P.K. Subban. We had P.K., wanted a different look, and had the opportunity to get one of the 8-10 or so defenders one could even have a discussion about as a Norris candidate. In terms of leadership, again Shea Weber isn’t some mythical leader who would improve the chemistry on any single team in the NHL. There are already Sidney Crosbys, Jonathan Toews’, Sedin Twins, Bergerons, Blake Wheelers, Jamie Benns, Zetterbergs etc. in this league. When people discussed leadership with Weber, it was in comparison with Subban. Subban leads in his own way and actually says a lot of the right things, but if we’re going to say Subban had issues with even one or two people, Shea Weber will have more of a positive impact in the locker room, where not one person has anything but respect for him. That the Habs haven’t had relative success since the trade does not mean that it did not solve any issues. All of our issues have nothing to with this move. Not signing Radulov and Markov and trading Sergachev for Drouin had nothing to do with an old school mentality. Signing Streit after Markov bailed is also a stupid one, but one that demonstrates the knowledge of how the modern NHL supposedly works. We have Weber, we have Petry. Now let’s get some top 4 defensemen who can help offensively on the left side.

Did you not see the anger in Gallagher’s demeanor when discussing P.K. Subban? That’s not something that stems from one incident. From everything I’ve gathered it does seem that there were issues in the locker room and that the main way to solve those issues would have been to ship someone out. It is not only Therrien and Bergevin that may have had issue with Subban. It was actual players on the team. A more fair argument in my eyes would be not to state that Subban was traded for no reason, but that whoever else was involved could have been the ones moved with Subban instead being kept. What none of us know is how many people felt a certain type of way. Did only one person have issue with Subban? Did Subban have issue with anyone? However you want to call it, Subban has an extremely extroverted personality. I’d imagine that it would be a very touchy subject but as much as I’ve seen the racism cards played out, I’ve also seen constant mentions of narcisstic traits in relation to Subban now and then, not only on this site. Please do not misconstrue what I am saying as an attack on Subban because I am not defining Subban as a narcissist. I don’t know him at all. What I do know is that he rubbed at least one or two players on our team the wrong way and that Gallagher mentioned something about “P.K. making it all about P.K.” I’ve also seen fan reaction and mentions of how losing P.K. was like losing a girlfriend. In fact these people are reacting the same way someone would act after a relationship with a narcissist. They have you convinced they are your soulmate, only for them to eventually reveal their true colors to those who are closest to them, unless they still need something from you. I once dated a narcissist myself. You know what she would say whenever she got a parking ticket? “I consider it a donation.” Kind acts are often done for themselves and eventually, the mask wears off. Any comments about how Nashville has embraced Subban in the early going are of no surprise even if one were to agree with what I just said. What would be more surprising if that were true is whether it would last in the long term. If Subban remains a predator for the next 5-10 years, I’ll eat my words. If he doesn’t, this doesn’t back up my claims either but I will not be surprised. Bergevin did not explicitly go out and look to trade a puck mover for a dinosaur who cannot move the puck. Nashville starts with the letter “N”. Montreal starts with the letter “M”. At GM meetings, teams sit arranged by alphabetical order. It is no surprise then, that Poile and Bergevin would interact at such occasions. At one of the general manager meetings, Poile was the one who approached Bergevin and mentioned the names P.K. Subban and Shea Weber. While I can agree that perhaps the initial thought process behind trading P.K. Subban weren’t purely based on hockey, the player we got in return helped our team in many hockey related areas. The trade could have been much worse. The players are quite close in caliber and here’s to hoping Weber has a great year next year. ——— I understand that I may have opened a can of worms with some of my comments but I only speak based on observation. I’m sorry if I offended anyone by attributing narcissism with P.K. Subban, I just tend to notice narcissitic traits in people because of my past history. Having narcissistic traits is a good thing and is a far cry from actually being a narcissist. That could very well be P.K. Subban as well. What I do know is that P.K. Subban did rub some people on our own team off the wrong way (whether narcisstic or not) and that it is therefore just as incorrect to state that the trade happened for no reason at all.

“Apart from the first month where Weber went on a crazy and unsustainable scoring tear, this team's record has been absolutely execrable since trading Subban. And that's WITH Price in the lineup. Results speak for themselves.” “Second, the core is stale; frankly, it has looked unconvincing ever since Subban left (or, if I wanted to be generous, ever since Weber stopped scoring at a crazy pace in his first six weeks with us). The team has a piss-poor record over an entire year, and even when it made the playoffs looked insipid. At some point, you go, 'well...let's try something else.'” “Y'know, my math is terrible. But I believe the latter half, extrapolated across a full season, put us on pace for 93 points - i.e., out of the playoffs. So, OK, yes, better than .500. But a bubble team at best. It therefore seems to remain accurate, then, to say that since combining Carey Price and Weber the Habs have indeed stunk, except for that initial spectacular six-week explosion by #6. Of course you can't just discount that initial explosion, but when a core player is scoring way off the chart of his career patterns, you'd also be crazy to take that as the default setting. Once Weber reverted to norms in December, the Habs basically became a bubble team or worse. Where they have remained.” “It's also true that the team has basically sucked since it traded Subban, apart from Weber's aberrant six-week explosion when he first artived. The fact is that the longer Bergevin has been in charge, the worse the team has gotten.” Do any of those comments sound familiar? Seems to me some people think the issue with the current team stems in large part from the deal we speak of. I think Machine of Loving Grace said it best.... ”2013-2017, only two Habs defencemen have more than five points in the playoffs: Subban and Markov. They "replaced" Subban with Weber. There isn't even a backup to Markov like Petry could be to Subban. The left defence is pretty much offensively inept without Markov, and there's absolutely nothing to replace him in the present or future. Except cap space! Can't wait to see what cap space can do in the playoffs.” We have Shea Weber and a puck mover in Jeff Petry on the right side in the top 4. What we need is a puck moving left handed defenseman. We would still need that even if P.K. Subban were on the team.

I’m not particularly cheering for Vegas, I’m just stating a fact. Vegas strong Scheifele is the real deal

Vegas strong.

So do we get to talk about all the “pointless” “lateral” moves that “served no purpose” in the history of the NHL? Or just this one? There is without a shadow of a doubt a few players on the team who were happy with the transaction for whatever reason they feel. I would be surprised if there were a single player on the team who were like oh no we lost Subban and are getting Weber. While I do not know for a fact, it does seem that both sides of this argument are true. In that case, we got a player who is a 47% vs 53% at worst, judging by their career statistics and leaving defense out of the equation, but also had players on his own team happy to see him leave. It seems as though at least Gallagher felt that way.

That’s the thing. I actually couldn’t give a crap about the topic. I loved Subban when he was on our team but did not become a Nashville supporter when the trade happened. To be clear, I have no issues with those who did, but part of my heartfelt debate on this topic stems from the fact that I am a Habs fan. I’ve seen too often on this website people getting criticized for basically loving the Habs and supporting the team. Weber is now a Hab and while I personally don’t agree there’s a huge discrepancy in the overall impact Weber and Subban can have on a team, even if I did, I wouldn’t troll a fellow Hab fan for being just that and supporting Weber. Boston sucked last year. Tampa missed the playoffs. But no, they are perennial contenders. The Habs on the other hand apparently have attitude issues, even though that type of thing is certain to change from year to year with off season moves. Most people here dislike Bergevin, but when he says something stupid like the team has an attitude problem, people use it as gospel to prove that the Weber influence had no impact. Weber didn’t even play most of this season and the team will have a better “attitude” once it starts winning. It’s not necessarily the other way around.

I’m certainly not crying about downvotes considering it’s the first time I’ve used the word after having been on this website for over 10 years. However, when all I’ve done is make one post in a 24 hour span on the topic and find myself having multiple downvotes on previous posts from days ago that I wouldn’t even be able to find and may even be unrelated to this topic, just because of that one post, I have to conclude that people are over sensitive on the topic. The point is that even if a perceived character issue was the initial catalyst for the trade, the Habs then still got an elite all star caliber player on their team in return. One cannot say that the trade was only because of character, had no hockey reasons, and then also add that Subban has zero character flaws. I also personally do not agree that Subban is so much better than Weber. He is a better point getter, smoother on his feet and with puck movement, but scores less goals and turns over the puck in higher risk situations. That’s without taking into account their different demeanor. I understand people don’t like turnover numbers. I understand Weber turns it over as well. I understand Habs stats at the Bell Center are skewed. This doesn’t change the fact that their styles are different and that comes with the good and the bad. I still think that trades like Karlsson for Burns, Byfuglien for Carlson or Subban for Weber are relative washes and not such a big deal. Different looks for each team. I’ve seen a comparison to the Savard trade and people forget that if it were the Savard trade, it would have been Subban and a pick for Shea Weber. This entire time, I’ve rarely seen any of the people who dislike the trade mention how great it is to have Weber on the team. I’ve seen things like “this isn’t about Weber”, “it wasn’t Weber’s fault the trade happened”, “no one is saying Weber is bad”. Fact is, it’s a great thing to have Shea Weber on this team. The main reason people are actually judging this move to such a serious extent are because they hate Bergevin in general, or had a preconceived notion that Subban was absolutely untouchable prior to the trade.

Seriously you guys are going overboard and getting over sensitive on this topic. I’ve never mentioned downvotes on this board but it doesn’t matter what I say anymore, they are coming out whenever I mention Weber or Subban’s name. Even when I mention a cold hard fact. I’ll say it again. Weber scores more goals as a defenseman than Subban. Goals = Hockey. I never said character wasn’t a consideration in the trade. I said that it’s false to say that there are no hockey reasons for the trade and I don’t give a damn what anyone has to say about that. Statistically, Weber was supposed to help us score goals on the power play and scores more goals in general than Subban. How many defenseman in the NHl can say that? Weber must be a pretty damn good hockey player. Hockey. This year was a career year in goals for Subban and Weber still was on pace for more. Subban still does things that actually are negative but I’m not allowed to say that. Those negative things are overshadowed by his greatness and not only that, these negative things happen because of his greatness. After Subban scored in game 7 to make it 1-2 he came to the bench, pumped his chest and started screaming “this is our house”. That was great and inspiring to see, but their team lost 5-1. Weber would have faced the same music with a stoic look on his face and people would then talk about all he has is character. No skill. Oh right, the skill is there, just less in every imaginable way than Subban. It’s not his fault. The constant claim is that there were no hockey reasons for the trade, and that type of thing happens all the time in the NHL anyway. This one has been blown big.

It’s not true. One can say that character and an attitude were part of the reasons of the trade but there are things Weber does better than Subban. Weber scores more goals as a defenseman than Subban. Simple as that.

That trade was character and talent for character and talent.

I also think the most recent attitude thing is stupid but you don’t have to be in the room to see how the Habs handled things once they got scored on. They broke down. That in and of itself is an attitude thing, or at the very least a mental thing. I also acknowledge that the team wasn’t great on paper and that it was Bergevin’s fault but I sometimes think that words that come out of Bergevin’s mouth, while they are stupid, also get lost in the way the he says them.

I liked Morrow more than others simply because of my expectations of him beforehand. I haven’t noticed Morrow or Jerabek in a single playoff game though. Although now that I mention it, I remember posting about Morrow after his game winning goal in game 1 of round 1 against Minnesota. The first game of these playoffs. He hasn’t seen the ice since that series.

Tampa has Sergachev Winnipeg has no one Vegas has... Grabovski. Though he hasn’t played a game all year. Washington has Eller and forgotten about but also performing.... Devante Smith Pelly

It's almost comical that I should be accused of accepting mediocrity when you are literally the one who wants the Habs to tank for the next few years, with part of the reason obviously being wanting Bergevin to get fired. That's really strong grounds for producing productive analysis for the betterment of our team. I won't get into the discussion on Price, other than to say I'm happy our team has the problem of having potentially the best goalie in the world. It's a problem people bring up in various ways but as long as he actually remains at his potential high level, that's a good thing. On the other extreme, if people really think he's the only reason our team has a chance at being successful and people truly want to rebuild, Price is the one who should be used for a good return. I don't agree with this stance but it will quiet down those who think our management is actually blinded themselves by the Price factor. All I've done is indirectly suggest that Weber and the 19 goals he would have scored this year are not a problem and are great to have. In addition to that, I've tried to suggest that we should keep our best players and use the available cap space to surround them by better players. With that simple solution, the habs are automatically a better team next year than they were this year, which doesn't say much, but they will be better on paper and not just in the standings. Trade our best players as I've seen you suggest, and the Habs will certainly be worse for at least another year... But at least Bergevin may get fired. I'm not the one who wants to accept mediocrity. I see it the other way.

Caps and Tampa are about to head into game 2. We’ll see how it plays out but I have a feeling Washington will steal another game on the road.