The Chicoutimi Cucumber

I meant he was in 'survival' mode in the fight with Scott. He started out throwing punches but about 2/3 of the way through you could see him hoping the linesmen would step in. Not sure how people thought I was slagging Murray. I'm a Murray defender and definitely prefer him to Bouillon, because I want teams thinking twice about going into the Habs' zone and believe in the value of hard-hitting, crushing defencemen even if they have occasional breakdowns - especially on a team like ours that is not known for physical robustness. Bouillon is more multi-dimensional but also mediocre in every aspect of the game. I also agree that Murray has to be given some time to round into form. That said, he's not exactly Mr. Impeccable in his own end. A limited player with impressive strengths in specialized areas.

Buffalo played like a quintessential crap team. I remember the recipe well from the Habs of the late 1990s: come out hopeful, and play the other team more or less even for a while...fail to score on a couple of decent chances...then fall behind. Resigned to your inevitable defeat and you revert to long stretches of lacklustre play. You make a couple of "pushes" as the game evolves...maybe score to keep it close...then the other team eventually pulls away. You lose. And no one ever really believed you were going to win. Dryden describes this dynamic wonderfully in The Game, as the Habs played against the then-hapless Wings. I thought Myers had some moments, though. And of course Stafford made a fool of Subban. Yeesh. My favourite parts of the game was the crushing hit Murray put on a guy, only to have it surpassed by Emelin's absolute demolition of Moulson. Whoa. And Murray deserves major kudos for having the guts to take on Scott. He started out game, but by the end was clearly just in survival mode. Dodgy defenceman, but what a warrior. It's one of those wins that you need to put in the bank despite the total lack of interest in the team you're playing. They did that, and it was a businesslike win - the sort you expect from a good team.

It's funny how folks have long fumed about Diaz's limitations, but when talk seriously turns to trading him, we start to get antsy It's the Mark Streit syndrome.

No, I don't see them as contenders. But I think their pieces at FW are quite strong - considerably moreso than ours. The D is more of a dog's breakfast, but they're rugged, can score, have (as I said before) gone through all sorts of adversity, and now seem to have strong netminding. Hence the lower-rung playoff team status; but such teams are also the sort that, if they can stay healthy and pull it all together, can play the dark horse role in a playoff run. A quality squad. Not elite.

You make a good point. Oh well, easy come easy go...

If we get suckered by the Leafs into playing their game, then they smoke us. If we play our game, we can beat them. As for their excellence vs. mediocrity, I'm inclined to look at their longer-term trend. Two years ago, they had a dynamite first half and a second half collapse: knocking on the door, but not ready. Last season, they kicked open the door and took the mighty Prunes to Game 7 before one of the most comically hysterical chokes in memory. This season, they racked up Ws before falling back to their more normal location (lower-seed playoff team). I would not be surprised, therefore, to see them build on last season and win a playoff round or two. They're on an overall upward trajectory and have been through all the right growing pains. Not to be underestimated whatever the advanced stats say, IMHO.

Ugh! Not as fall-down-laughing ridiculous as the US unis...but gross enough.

I'd do Diaz for Dillon in a split second, but Dallas likely wouldn't. The good news is that MB has prior dealings with Dallas, so presumably there are open lines of communication there. Fun to contemplate, anyway.

I wouldn't be too excited, since the same article says that he's been looking for a top-liner since he arrived.

Boy, if we trade him "to help us now" I will be one unhappy Cucumber. It's folly for this team to "go for it" by shipping out young talent for short-term help. That doesn't mean you're wrong to think he could be moved for just the reasons you state, Meller93. But I'll be pretty shocked if he's not traded for other prospects rather than, God forbid, a rental.

Hmmm. The experience argument is a good one. The others - "don't send a bad message, etc." - I find less persuasive; players aren't babies, and for God's sake we're trying to build a champion here. But if Gio fetches only a modest return in lieu of helping us give young players valuable experience, then that would certainly validate keeping him.

Well, I remember just a couple of years ago he was being hailed as a future star. I don't follow our prospects closely enough to know the truth of the matter, but I wouldn't be so hot to deal away the organization's top defensive prospect (along with Tinordi). A lot of fans don't seem to be thinking the way I am - i.e., that this is a rebuild and that we should be looking 2-3 years ahead.

Stogey and Meller: why would we trade Beaulieu? Not being abrasive here, just honestly curious. Won't we need him to be a serious offensive defenceman within the next 2-3 years assuming a limited shelf life for #79? And even if Markov plays until he's ancient, don't we have a serious organizational need another top-4 defenceman anyway? What I'm suggesting is that Beaulieu is not redundant in organizational terms and therefore maybe needs to be kept. Or do we see Diaz maturing into that role?

Look, like I say above, if it is some kind of credibility-shattering, organization-destroying move to trade your soon-to-be UFA captain, then obviously we shouldn't do it. If the issue is rather that it is wrong to remove your captain when you're clinging to the last playoff spot, then I'm less impressed. What are we saying, the team will fall apart without Brian Gionta? Then that's pretty grim news, because he'll probably be gone come July anyway. I get the idea that "once you're in the playoffs, anything can happen." Sure. I also get the idea that this team has very little chance of making a deep run unless Price plays absolutely out of his mind AND the other teams' goalies reliably stink out the joint. I just do not believe that a team with Briere, DD, Gio, and Gally in the top 9 is going to succeed against the clutching-and-grabbing, thuggish behemoths of the league come playoff time. Nor do we have the star talent to compensate for this weakness. We're simply not constructed to seriously contend this season (and I'll bet Bergevin, in an honest moment, would say the same thing). In that situation, it's poor asset management not to try to ship out impending UFAs whom you have no interest in re-signing, for valuable assets. Now, maybe the return will be too modest to outweigh the benefits of keeping Gio around. That's fair. But I think a 2nd-round pick is easily within the realm of possibility...and again, this assumes Gio is willing to go. I saw this team cling to Souray when he could have yielded a tremendous deadline return, in a year when we has zero chance of winning; then ship out Huet despite Price being completely raw, in a year when we actually did have a chance. Come on. Let's have some serious asset management for a change.

Boy, trading Pleks would be one ballsy move given what he means to our core. I suppose the assumption is that his role can be filled by Bournival? It depends on the return, but man, I'd be jittery about that one. Moen and Bourque are interesting and not-implausible candidates. But one can only ponder with amazement the scenario of the Habs getting even SMALLER and less physically robust at the deadline At least in the case of Bourque, you can make an argument that he hardly ever uses his size to advantage; despite Habs29's hate-on for Moen, I think he's a useful bottom-6 guy for us, last year's terrible performance notwithstanding. So of the two, I'd see Bourque being the guy MB tries hardest to move, though a deal for Moen would surely be easier to make. It's really hard to predict such things. Still, -Diaz might be dealt just because of his contract status. If negotiations falter, you move him. -Gio should be dealt, but as the other thread indicates, I'd be horsewhipped if I suggested that he will be. -If MB has any brain at all he will at least test the market for Murray and Honey Boo Boo (maybe a 4th-5th rounder?), as hard as it will be for Therrien to lose his boy toy. -if Desharnais can string together some quality months, there is a remote chance that some club looking to add offence will be willing to take a flyer on him. If so we absolutely should pounce (although we'd likely have to take salary back). -Gorges is an interesting case...but I just can't see us moving him.

I guess I'm naive about such things. I see us as about 2/3 of the way through a rebuilding process - the idea that we are contenders this season is pure comedy IMHO - so all this "we're in a playoff race and can't move our captain" stuff doesn't make too much sense to me. But look, if moving Gio amounts to firebombing the room and destroying all faith in the organization, then obviously we should just let him walk. Regardless, you bag $5 mil in cap savings, which isn't exactly chump change. It'll just be a shame not to add, say, a 2nd-rounder to our asset list all because of a "C" on the sweater. As for "who wants him," oh please. Plenty of teams would be interested in adding a veteran multi-Cup winner and NHL captain who plays hard every shift and has a history of producing in the clutch. Never underestimate the desperation of contending teams at the deadline.

Maybe it depends on what the return could be, of course; and (importantly) on your level of confidence in what we have in the system. Like I keep saying, I'm not entirely sure that we do have the elements in the system to contend within the next 2-3 years. If we don't, then we have to be absolutely ruthless about managing assets. Gio is a UFA next summer anyway, so in terms of "losing his leadership," it's really a question of losing it a few weeks earlier than would otherwise be the case. I don't think anyone is going to want to leave the organization, or refuse to sign with it, because we traded away a declining veteran with an expiring contract rather than lose him for nothing. Now as to whether Gio would go, that's another question. Maybe not.

I hated losing Pererzhogin, who probably left because he got fed up with Carbo's bizarre attempts to turn him into a third-line checker. Looking at his KHL numbers, though, he never seems to have evolved into the top-6 forward I thought he could become. Oh, well, so much for my career as a scout.

You've got me on the NTC. Although I think those can be a bit of a red herring; it seems that many players accept being traded despite NTCs. As for his being captain, meh. Asset management.

100%. I have huge respect for Gionta, but he is a perfect example of a guy you move at the deadline to a team with serious Cup aspirations. If he's not moved, I will be POd.

For what it's worth - certainly I can't back this up with advanced stats or any such stuff - I'm basically with Habs29. I prefer Murray to Bouillon because Bouillon is thoroughly mediocre while Murray does a couple of things very well, and those are skills that this defence corps desperately needs. (That said, I don't share Habs29's fuming hatred of Boo Boo; I always kinda liked him, back in his prime). That said, with Emelin back - and has anyone noticed that we started winning again once he returned? - Murray's value dips somewhat. And Habs29 is of course 100% correct when he says that we have a ridiculous proportion of smurfs in our top-9. This is a fundamental weakness. Ironically, it's gotten worse rather than better; we subtracted Cole and added Briere (!). No matter how good each individual midget is, you can't have that many on your team, especially not now that the NHL has idiotically reverted back to becoming a league of rampant interference. (And what a coincidence, we're now hearing all sorts of handwringing and cockamaimie schemes for "increasing scoring," natch. Better to enlarge the nets or calling shorthanded teams for icing, than simply to enforce the goddamned rule book. Anything but that!!).

It's pretty weird. The positive interpretation is that these guys are good teammates who stand up for each other. The negative interpretation is the one you're providing. If management judges the latter to be more accurate, that's one reason to look at a trade IMHO. MaxPac in particular needs to be able to stand on his own feet, because no championship team is going to have a guy like DD playing top-6 minutes.

From their recent interview remarks, it sounds like that's what he and MaxPac sing to one another in the shower.

A disturbing analysis, not unlike what a lot of people were saying about Marc Savard before the boom was lowered on him. I really hate the thought of these guys being one concussion away from destroyed lives. Assuming Wilde to be correct, it's regrettable that Bourque doesn't have the sense to step away and move on with his life; it's certainly not as though his play shows any passion for the game in any case.

Now that Desharnais has bagged some assists, I think this thread has become a bit unfair. DD isn't a goal scorer, so holding a lack of goals against him is judging him by the wrong standard (this was also true of Gomez, incidentally). If he can build on the Minny game to become, once again, a tolerably productive playmaking C, then this thread should be put behind us IMHO.