The Chicoutimi Cucumber

Funniest game thread of the year so far Keep 'em coming!

Fair enough, but how many new faces do we need? Metropolit and Schneider are both veterans, the latter a major addition and grizzled in the extreme. Why would one more make the difference? Why is three the magic number, exactly? You're right about Price, but he seems some distance from finding his form. Personally I think Gainey should have someone like Luongo or Roy call him up, give him a little heart to heart. Luongo in particular has experienced dry spells and inevitably works his way out of them. He could be a fount of wisdom on how to do it. I guess that I think this team has deep 'issues' that have nothing to do with its formidable talent level. This is why I'm pessimistic that Tanguay and Latendresse can save us. Hopefully I'm overreacting, like most Habs fans usually do.

I like Macguire, and I've insisted that we should have made a push for Jokinen, so in a sense I agree with him. But my argument for Jokinen has less to do with this season than with the longer-term void at C. Macguire is speaking solely of a run in 2009. In this sense I disagree with him. Gainey has made tons of additions to improve a team that finished 1st in the East last season. In the process he has already weakened our draft position in the future. Further major moves would likely have eroded our future even more - and given that this team's problems seem to be 90% mental, and also coaching-related, I'm not sure adding a big piece (except perhaps a big C) would have made any fundamental difference this season. Macguire's argument is contradictory in a way. On the one hand, he obviously thinks we should be considered contenders, based on talent; otherwise he wouldn't be declaring the season a failure if we don't get to the Finals. This means that Gainey has assembled a team that, on paper, should win. And yet it will be 'all on Gainey' if this excellent assemblage of talent he put together doesn't win. It's not quite a contradiction, if you see the basic problem as coaching. Gainey is responsible for hiring and firing the coach, so if the coach fails to get the most out of the players, Gainey has to wear it. But granting this, it still makes no sense to attack Gainey for not making trades at the deadline. An extra player or two will not fix a poisonous team culture or a crappy coaching system. I dunno. I keep hearing people attacking Gainey. I find it bizarre. Stepping back from the deadline and looking at the big picture, Bob addressed every obvious weakness the 2008 team had. Fixing the 2009 team is a much more vexing problem because of the catastrophic gap between talent and performance, and I'm not sure hasty dealing at the deadline is the right way to approach it.

The loss of Lang is very serious. I don't believe that we can go really deep in the playoffs with Koivu and Pleks at C. I'd love to proven wrong, but Pleks has severely disappointed this season. I don't trust him to deliver at this point. Beyond that, there is no reason why the premise of this thread is wrong. On paper, with the addition of Tanguay and Schneider, we're better than last year even without Lang. On paper, the young guns should be older, wiser, and better, too. Too bad this game isn't played on paper.

I wonder if this team misses Ryan Walter more than we might think. Walter was hired as some sort of special motivational therapist (or something) last season - then he got headhunted by the Canucks. In short, we had a professional on staff whose role was to facilitate a positive attitude and some sort of psychological mentorship among the players. Given the difference in psyche between this year's team and last year's, it's at least worth asking the question. More broadly, are the Habs providing the young players, especially, with all the resources to cope, emotionally, psychologically, etc., with the craziness that's happened to them in the last 2-3 years? Kids from northern BC or wherever suddenly becoming celebrities and millionaires, having a city at their feet, and facing tremendous amounts of pressure to perform? You'd think the veterans would do it...but maybe having a couple of counsellors around or Ryan Walter-types is in order? Just thinking out loud.

I loved the Laraque sgning. Shows what I know. He may just be too old to be effective (I realize he's relatively young, but different players age at different rates, especially when they can't skate to begin with). Also - more philosophically, is a guy like Laraque really the answer for this particular team? I see guys like Kostitsyn losing battles for the puck or pulling up at the last second to avoid getting hit, or else playing the perimeter. A fighter doesn't fix that.

It's worth noting that, at his press conference, Gainey DID throw down the gauntlet to the coaching staff. He said, in effect, that under-performing players need to do better, AND that it's up the coaches to squeeze more out of them. That has to be counted a surprising shot across the coaches' bow, as it were. I wouldn't be surprised if Bob cuts Carbo loose (or shuffle him elsewhere in the organization) should the Habs continue on their current path. One thing Gainey has always been, is a winner. He will do what it takes even if that means knifing Carbo. And check out Elliotte Friedman's insightful take on Gainey's non-action: http://habsinsideout.com/main/16731 In effect, Bob did nothing because he knows the team isn't good enough to win. So don't give up youth or picks for that big piece. This is precisely the opposite of his official rationale, but it might be closest to the truth.

I like what Prime Minister Koivu said. The team has been completely sucking ass defensively. It's ridiculous. That is the absolute worst situation in which the develop a young goalie who has hit a bad patch. There's a real danger here of ruining Price. That is a notorious risk when you bring up young goalies too soon on bad teams (and while I don't think the Habs are a 'bad team', they've certainly been playing like one for the entire period after the All Star break). Remember Dan Blackburn? Highly touted, brought up too soon by a crappy Rangers organization, ups and downs, struggles, declining confidence, injury - ruined. Price has to take responsibility for his own woes, but fer chrissakes, the Canadiens also need to put him in a situation in which he has a good chance of succeeding. Their play has been unforgiveable in this respect.

Yes, we need a system. In fact, if you look at our personnel, we have an awesome team. More bodies is not the answer. In short, I am officially starting to turn against Carbo. And all this love for Lecavalier! Yes, he's an awesome player. But can I ask - have ANY of you Vinny-boosters given any thought to how his contract will look in two years when the cap shrinks to $45 mil? Or when Vinny is 38 and washed up and we're paying him a gagillion dollars to score 15 goals in a cap system? Just asking. Tampa Bay didn't have to give him that preposterous contract, but they did, and that should at least dampen our enthusiasm for acquiring him.

Really, really excellent post. I also have never had it in for Carbo and have been reluctant to call for his head. And I think that if we do can him, he'll resurface elsewhere, wiser for this experience, and go on to be terrific coach in the mode of Julien. But when you've got a terrific team on paper that plays as dimsally as this bunch has done, there may be no easy way around your conclusions. People will, as you say, point to Therrien and Julien and blame the players. I like your response. And I would just add that we should consider that their experience in Montreal may have led to their becoming better coaches than they were for us. Which is why I'm frankly tired of Montreal being a training ground for rookie coaches. That was OK when we were bottom-feeders and a 'developing' organization. Now we are supposed to be contenders, goddamit! Bring in someone with a track record. I don't know who at this point, though - but experience and discipline would be my first criteria. Were it not for his tragic illness, Pat Burns would be absolutely perfect.

Just to be clear, it's not that I have a hard-on for Jokinen. The point is that he would address a longer-term dilemma that is extremely worrisome for this franchise: the lack of ANY quality top-6 centremen other than an aging Koivu. People who say we should hold out for better than Jokinen...hey, I admire your optimism. All I know is that we haven't had a top C since Koivu's knee was destroyed in 1996-97. That's 12 years of waiting. Godot showed up sooner. Huge opportunity missed. And don't give me this cap stuff. Waivers, minors - that's the way to dump salary if you absolutely have to in order to solve a massive problem like that. As for tonight's game, I think it was a big statement. And that statement is: sorry, Bob, but we suck.

Lots there, good stuff. I can certainly understand criticisms of Carbo. I've said several times, on any other franchise his job would at least have come into question by now. As you say - he has a team that should be doing much better. This gets to my (respectful) criticism of your post. You can't say that 1. the Canadiens are a talented team that should be among the league's elite (as it was last season) AND 2. then blame Gainey for doing a bad job of managing. Look at this season: he added Tanguay, a bona fide first-line winger; Lang, a bona fide 2nd line C; Schneider, that elsuive 4th D-man and PP quarterback we needed; and Laraque, toughest guy in hockey. All this, added to the many talented young players his regime has developed and inserted into the lineup. Granted, I'm disappointed that he neglected to solve our longer-term problem at C by not pursuing Jokinen. I'm not saying Gainey is perfect. But while one problem on this team *may* be coaching, there is no way there is a problem in 'administration,' as you put it. Gainey assembled a Cup contender on paper. That it has failed to gel is not his responsibility.

I would trade Higgins and a pick for Jokinen. Preferably not a 1st rounder, though; but if that's what it took, I'd do it...without too many misgivings. The guy is a legitimate, relatively young, hulking #1 C. He's exactly what we'd be trying to draft with that #1 pick anyway. And he's not a rental. And he's reasonably cheap for a front-line C. Indeed, I would rather have him than Lecavalier for one simple reason: his contract will not hamstring the organization for the next decade. As I say, if we had any elite C prospects in the system, I wouldn't be as passionate about this. But we don't. We have an aging Koivu and an erratic, mostly-perimeter-player C in Plekanec. What happens when Koivu goes? Pleks is our go-to guy? We cross our fingers that we suddenly become the prime destination for any star C UFAs? Come on. Now I agree that Bob can't ADMIT to any of this. His main message today was, I believe, aimed at the players: "we believe you are good enough to win the Stanley Cup. We have faith in you and your talent. Now stand and deliver." That's good management. But that doesn't mean that failing to get Jokinen was not a mistake. If the return was Higgins + 1st rounder, you try to bargain them down on the picks, but ultimately pull the trigger IMHO.

RDS didn't show his English answers, but in French he basically said that -the Habs received no tempting offers in the last couple of days; -that he alerted GMs that Dandenault was available but got no interest; -that he does not regret 'missing out' on any of the players that were traded today; -and that, explicitly, he believes in this team - that they have a good mix of types of players, that he's already added parts (Tanguay, Schneider), that there is good depth on D, and that it's up to players who have underperformed due to injury or other causes to suck it up and deliver. Basically, he threw down the gauntlet to his guys. I don't think standing pat is a terrible move. If you watch the trade coverage, you'll notice that the commentators ALWAY concentrate on a player's virtues/upside, more seldom on his limitations. This can lead fans of a stand-pat team to panic: OH NO, THE RANGERS GOT ANTROPOV, THE TSN GUYS SAY HE'S A GOOD, BIG CENTRE, WE'RE DEAD MEAT!!! In fact, Antropov is a decent C but nobody's idea of a difference maker. Boston's new 5th-defenceman Montador isn't going to break us in a 7-game series - leave that to Lucic, Kessel, and Julien's system. Etc. Where I disagree with Bob is on point three, above. We should have moved heaven and earth to get Jokinen, and not just for help this season, but for the future of the organization, which continues to have zero elite centremen in the system. I guarantee you this summer that Gainey will again be on the lookout for a 'big, elite centreman' - when in fact we had the chance to acquire one today, and weren't willing to make the cap room or part with the assets. I'll grant that we don't know what Phoenix would have wanted from us, but - without pretending expertise on the guys Calgary gave up - I can't believe that we couldn't have matched their offer. That's the one thing that I believe will haunt us.

Boy, Nylander's numbers really are horrendous. I haven't seen him play this season, but statistically it looks an awful like the 'no gas left in the tank' syndrome. Odds are he's done, so this rumour had better be of the 'wild' variety.

Well, you're right, I may just be demoralized. It's the fact that we're giving up 40+ shots a night and being dominated for long stretches, which did NOT routinely happen before the slump, that's got me down. That and the awful slump itself of course, along with the Lang injury. Of course, there's lots of time to straighten things out. The return of Tanguay and (yes) Latendresse will be huge for our overall game. Hammer and Komi getting healthy would be huge too, although it can't be taken for granted that that will happen before the playoffs. Honestly, though, can you look at a team on which Plekanec and Koivu are your key tandem at centre, your star goalie has been temporarily usurped after looking like a beer-league reject for a sustained period of time, where your main shutdown D-men (Hammer and Komi) have been substandard all season, and where you're counting on the ineffable duo of Kovalev and Kostitsyn for substantial offence in the clutch - can you look at all that and say: contender? Do you really see us beating Boston, or (gulp) New Jersey, let alone Detroit or San Jose, in a seven-game series? Why? I'll grant that stranger things have happened. There's still talent there (although Lang was key). Still, I look at what I thought of this team going into this season, and where these players have taken it - it IS demoralizing. We've gone from being considered as likely as anyone to come out of the East to being a team that hangs on by the skin of its teeth, and the acrobatics of a hot goalie, to escape obliteration by Philly (!) and San Jose. We shouldn't be the underdogs going into games like that. We are. And that's a bummer.

It's an interesting situation when a team adds two (arguably) top-4 defencemen at the deadline. It amounts to a confession that the team wasn't a contender at the start of the season, despite all the hype. Morris would be a good pickup, I guess, but - not to be obsessive or anything - Jokinen solves all sorts of problems, not just for this season but going forward. IF Pheonix moves him and it's not to us, I will be very disappointed.

For all that Carbo gets villainized around here and Gainey praised, it's worth noting that Carbo, not Gainey, may have been right about Price. Carbo's view was that Price should perhaps spend more time in the minors, and certainly that he needed more seasoning. Gainey's response was to agree that this was a sound general principle but that 'every rule has its exception.' He kept Price on the big team (only to send him down later) and eventually moved Huet to anoint him #1. Now in a sense they were both right. People seem to have completely forgotten that Price was fabulous down the stretch last season and tremendous for us all season long, until his injury. The Price boosters are entirely right to point out just how impressive those performances were for a player of that age, and in that market - they're historic performances, really. (Even Patrick Roy took a few seasons before he could produce the kind of reliable netminding Price gave us over those stretches). The fly in the ointment has been Price's weird propensity to collapse: once in his rookie year before he got sent down; again against Philly; and again after the All-Star break. It's as if he suddenly loses all confidence, forgets how to play goal. This is a bit unnerving, because it points to a more fragile psyche that you'd expect to see from a Franchise Player. (E.g., Carbo, again rightly, points out that many young players hit a wall eventually - his example being Sam Gagner; but if Price really is The Franchise, the comparable should be Crosby, and I don't recall his game heading south as catastrophically as Price's has for any length of time). Note that some 'great' goalies suffered this 'sudden collapse' syndrome all their lives. Tretiak and Dryden both went through dismal stretches (in Dryden's case, the 72 series and the 1979 playoffs come to mind; in Tretiak's, the 1980 Olympics). Maybe Price is one of those types of goalie. Or maybe it's just growing pains. In Price's case, part of Gainey's desire to hurry him along may have to do with cap considerations. I think he's decided Price has the cojones to survive the ups and downs and that this will free up cap space to spend in other positions. Would he do the same in the pre-cap model? Perhaps, but I highly doubt it. Finally: as great as Halak's been, no team can keep winning if they give up 40 shots a night. I am utterly baffled as to how a team that consistently kept opponents to 20-25 shots against before the All Star Break has suddenly forgotten how. The only explanations are injuries to Hamrlik and Komisarek. Bottom line: we were supposed to be contenders this season, goddamit, and here we are getting all excited by a hot goalie who is stealing games for us against teams that - if we were contenders - we wouldn't need to steal. I'm happy for the kid, but in the bigger picture, this sucks ass.

I'm flattered people actually remember my fussin' For the record, I wanted trade Koivu for Marleau. But Wamsley is also right - I was an advocate of trading Kovalev at the end of last season, and this year too, for the very reasons he identifies. And I still think both moves would have been justified, although the Koivu thing is higher-risk than the Kovalev idea, because I, unlike many around here, suspect Koivu really is a key leader on this team. Anyway, water under the bridge - now Bob, get us Jokinen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The more I think about it, the more I really think we need to make a serious, determined push for Jokinen. His value is artificially low right now, after a wasted 'I want out' season in Florida and an unsuccessful transplant to Phoenix, coupled with the fact that Phoenix's desire to move him NOT motivated by hockey considerations. Contrary to what's been suggsted, Gretzky is NOT some coaching mastermind and so I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from Jokinen's struggles in that wasteland. He is not the 'saviour' - but then, I don't particularly believe in saviours (remember when everyone was enraged at Bob for failing to sign Briere to that ridiculous contract ?); his contract is tolerable, he's young, big and talented - in short, this could be Bob's Big Chance, one of those rare opportunities where you take a chance and go for the big strike that adds a fundamental ingredient to your core, even if it means taking a risk with the chemistry of our young nucleus. I'll bet Higgins and Gorges, plus some indeterminate mix of other ingredients, could bring Jokinen back. (I'd try to keep Pleks because we'll still need him as a #2 when Koivu goes). That would be risky because of our already-shaking situation at D. And Higgins is only 25 and a natural leader of uncertain potential. But that's what I'm saying. You have to take a real risk; the risk for this particular player probably won't be too high (e.g., Florida wanted Komisarek for Jokinen, and I seriously doubt Phoenix will be as demanding); the potential reward is a fundamental re-jigging of our team profile, such that we suddenly have a #1 C to be reckoned with. Do we really think this team can win now? Or that it can win in the forseeable future with Plekanec as our future #1C? If not, then it's time to make The Big Move. Go, Bob, go!!!!

It's a bit surreal that these completely minor moves generate so much commentary. That's les canadiens for you. Rightly or wrongly, Begin was not in the coach's plans. So it was only the decent thing to do. Now Bob's added a comparable player - veteran depth at C - so the team is no further behind, and we'll see where Mr. M fits into Carbo's game plan. My only concern in losing Begin was that we lost one of those depth guys who typically raises his game and offers crucial leadership in the playoffs. (c.f. Smolinski & Brisebois last year). Bob's compensated for the loss. The end.

One word: meh.

Exactly. Jokinen may not be the second coming, but he's vastly better than any C on our roster or in our system. Big, strong, relatively young, 90 points - no brainer. Trade Higgins, throw in some other elements, our biggest problem at C is solved going forward. Duh.

I liked Kozed's post, and I have to laugh...last season, with almost the same lineup, we were considered a frighteningly fast break-out team that would simply overwhelm the opposition with rush after rush. What happened? Everybody got slow over the summer? The most fundamental problem - especially now that we've added Schneider - may simply be that the players who were willing to pay the price (take the hit, win the one-on-one battle, forecheck like crazy, outhustle the opposition to loose pucks) have not been so willing this season. That, and our goaltending collapsed in mid-season. If the system has changed, that may be because Carbo is trying to adjust to these realities, to the fact that the players to whom he gave 'carte blanche' last season simply refused to deliver the goods. That would come back to players' laziness, complacency, irresponsibility, or lack of confidence, not team speed. (I'm still kinda mad at these players. They have a coach who let them roll, they have a GM who gave them every conceivable opportunity to win; all they had to do was play with commitment and urgency. Instead we got All-Star distractions, lack of focus, and guys like Pleks and the Kostitsyns who seemed to feel that they'd 'made it' instead of looking to drive to the next level. Jerks).

Olie Jokinen is available and, according to Ray Ferraro, Phoenix is desperate to move him; the deal would have to include a roster player back. I'm trying to think of some reason why we wouldn't try to concoct a package for him. Any answers? Don't tell me it's for fear of upsetting the chemistry on this team - for Pete's sake.