Mils

I know nothing about the Canadian cities. But, among U.S. cities, the loudest, most interested, most consistent crowds are in Minnesota, Detroit, Colorado, Dallas, Columbus, and San Jose. The Shark Tank is one of the loudest arenas around, Blue Jackets fans and Stars fans show up consistently and genuinely enjoy the game (even though Dallas folks are not the most astute fans out there as far as knowing the rules and cheering accordingly). New York doesn't make it. They don't care about hockey at all. They don't show up (especially on Long Island), and they haven't given the Rangers the time of day since 1994.

- Name: Ryan Miller (No relation to the Sabres goaltender. I wish. haha. "Mils" comes from my last name, was a nickname in college.) - 23 yr. old American. - Single. - Male. - Immediate family: Dad (Owns a marketing research firm "Core Insights), Mom (Psychology professor), and 2 brothers (Kyle, 22, student at Colorado University; and Kellen, 18, student at Colorado State University.) - Born in Dallas, TX, - Grew up near Boulder, CO - Went to college at the University of Dayton, in Dayton, OH - Spent my first year of law school at Michigan State University, in East Lansing, MI - Transferred to the University of Denver, in Denver, CO, where I currently reside. - I am a big Avalanche fan, and have been since 1995. My allegiance is to Colorado sports. - I firmly believe that the Mountain Time Zone is the lost time zone, and dream of a day when the national sports media gives Denver some repsect. - I was at game 7 of the 2001 Stanley Cup finals. One of the best days of my life to date. - Found the HW boards and HWL through Fanpuck33, who was a good friend of mine in college. - In my second year of law school, hoping to work in Commercial/Corporate law at some point. - Patriotism: I am proud to be American, and (almost) never apologize for America's place in the world. I may not like the current president at all, but that's exactly why we have term limits, and I have tons of hope that a new president will repair America's image in the eyes of most of the rest of the world. I support democracy and capitalism because I believe they are the best systems of government and economy. I bristle when people criticize my home country for no reason other than it's trendy. Hating America because of the president or a small group of people in government is lazy and short-sighted. - In real life, I am very non-political. - I am a registered independent and have been since the day I turned 18. - I drive a forest green, 1996 Saturn 4-door sedan. It's ready to explode, but I just need it to last another year and a half. *Fingers crossed* - I live with my friend Greg, who is also in law school and was a classmate of mine at Michigan State. His girlfriend essentially lives here on a part-time basis as a result. haha. - Our apartment is across the street from Magness Arena, home of the Denver Pioneers NCAA hockey team. #3 in the country as I write. Hit me on facebook if you want: http://udayton.facebook.com/profile.php?id=21904347 Nice to meet all of you.

I'm glad you're so much more mature than me. You stayed away from those personal attacks like a pro. You give hypocirsy a terrible name. Learn to use english correctly, then try again. Is that "2 whites thing" a racist epiphet? I bet they're proud of you at the Klan meeting. Ron White is a comedian... you've been living under that rock for a while now. Like I said, Johnny-never-will-be. Never. Well done, overall though. Good information. I still love you.

You're just wrong... that's all. Here's why: 1.) He turtled?! WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!!! What angle of what hit are you watching? One who is unconscious cannot turtle... just not possible. his face hit the ice first because Bertuzzi had his left hand against the back of Moore's helmet. 2.) It was a blind sucker punch. Bertuzzi was directly behind him, grabbed him by the shirt, and reached around Moore to catch him in the face. Show me any other punch that fits "blind sucker punch" better. 3.) I'm not sure what Bertuzzi's skill has to do with the cleanness of the hit, you put those together like one justifies the other. Nonsense. 4.) Where is the "true definition" of "blind sucker punch" written? I'm looking through every dicitonary and encyclopedia I can find, and there isn't one. This is a classic opinion/fact confusion problem. Gotta' watch that. You and PTG should start a members only club for that sort of thing. 5.) "Very dirty and stupid" = The first (and last) bit of sense in this whole driveling post. Congrats. Did reasonable thought hurt badly? 6.) Bertuzzi's failure to regain his prior domination is not a function of almost killing Steve Moore. Plenty of players fall off the table for a wide variety of reasons. His career was not destroyed. He just sucks now. That's his fault, not anybody else's. Moore's career was destroyed. Read: HE CAN'T PLAY ANYMORE. That is a career that is destroyed. Losing your ability to score goals and turning into a giant, overpayed punk isn't a destroyed career. 7.) Bertuzzi doesn't deserve to lick the mud off of Howe's or Richard's shoes. Not now, not then, not ever. They're worlds apart. 8.) "How much does someone have to lose to appease you bleeding hearts." How much does Steve Moore have to lose before people like you think Bertuzzi deserves real punsihment? Are you physically unable of showing compassion, or does your love affair with the Canucks run so deep that you've lost that basic human emotion? Bertuzzi has lost almost nothing, compared to what Steve Moore did, that's beyond argument. Bertuzzi's suspension was a light slap on the wrist. Losing a couple thousand dollars is a small chunk on Bertuzzi's lifetime earnings. Moore's life came to a screeching halt. get some persepctive. 9.) This whole thing about the lawsuit. Here's the premise you need to be aware of: When someone physically injures another to the point where they are unable to continue with their profession or their normal life, the person who causes the harm can be held responsible for a lot of money. When a player is making $700,000 a year, or however much it was, and he lost 10 usable years, the numbers get big fast. If you don't like how that works, take it up with the American and Canadian judicial systems. Hating Steve Moore and slobbering on Todd Bertuzzi isn't the right vent for that frustration. 10.) "The mistake of a lifetime." I was wrong, there were two flashes of critical thought. Blue ribbon. Perhaps "Johnnyneverwillbe" would be better. Just a suggestion. "next time you have a thought... keep it to yourself." -Ron White

I love watching Crosby play hockey, but he deserves to get smacked every once in a while.

SAKS represents probably the best reasoned view here, in that we won't know 'til it's over. And JMMR's comment was unfathomable, but I already responded to that. As far as Moore's condition: The best information I've been able to come up with was that he visited the Mayo Clinic in Cleveland (the experts), and they said that he is unable to play professional hockey. He's not still in a neck brace, but the damage is not healed to a point where he can return. (Sorry, no citation on that one, I heard that through several sources about a year ago, and I can't find any confirmation... so, I guess I can't prove it. But, I've been following this story as closely as possible from the start, being a lifelong -- since the Avs came to Denver -- Avs fan. No, I'm not 12, but the only NHL team I've been a huge fan of is the avalanche. haha. I'm 23 I swear.)) However, Stealthy, the hit on Naslund was clean. Moore's shoulder and elbow were down. (Here's the link that shows the original hit. It's a Denver news outlet, (9news) but the hit appears at 1:02, and there are two angles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdLF8HbcAfM and here's the CBC angle from the National at 5:23: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxM7BxHgvVE...feature=related .) Naslund made a Lindros-Stevens mistake in putting his head down in the neutral zone and he paid for it (he was only out for a few games, 4-7 if I remember correctly). Moore's job was to be a grinder, to check, to hit, and to make plays like that one (See: Cody McCormick). Moore didn't do anything on that play except make a hard, open ice hit. You can look at the replays, Naslund put himself in a vulnerable position. Regardless of how you feel about Bertuzzi, Moore, Crawford, whoever, the hit was a clean, hard, open ice check. If you look take a neutral look at the replay of just that hit, I think you'd agree that it was clean. Like I said, his shoulder and elbow were down, and in today's Chris Simon, Tie Domi NHL, that's exactly what any hockey fan is looking for in a hard hit (clean and hard). If you put your head down in the neutral zone, (I don't care if you're Markus Naslund or Ryan VanDenbussche) that's what you are risking. My ultimate argument here is that Moore in no way deserved what he got. I believe that a big part of that is that the hit was clean. If he went Tie Domi on Scott Niedermayer or Marty McSorley on Donald Brashear, I'd have a different opinion, but he didn't. It was a clean hit, and Bertuzzi ended Moore's career (presumably, based on the info. available right now) in retribution. The punishment did NOT fit the crime in Moore's case or in Bertuzzi's. Stealthy: You know I respect you (Biggest cliche in sports I know, but it fits here. HWL love!! haha. :-D ). If you think the Moore hit was dirty, please point it out. Maybe there's something I'm not seeing, I mean, who wouldn't hate a big hit on their big star. If somebody totalled Sakic like that, you know I'd be unhappy. Until I see otherwise though, I think the hit was clean. As usual, I apologize for the wordy post. haha.

Are you kidding me? Wow. :puke: The hit on Naslund was clean. Moore did nothing to deserve what he got.

Francis. He made others better. Hull made himself better.

I'm extremely biased against the Dead Things and in favor of the Avs. And that's ok. The answer to this question is one of timing. From about 2002 or so until the end of his career, Yzerman was playing on one leg because of knee troubles. During that time, I'd go with Sakic and Forserg easily. However, between 2000 and 2003, Forsberg was injury riddled. Wrist, ankle, charlie horse, concussions, and spleen. During that time, I'd probably go with Yzerman and Shanahan. If we're trying to decide who we would rather have when they were in their primes, it's a difficult question, but I think it's Sakic and Forsberg's to lose, and Shanahan can't overcome Forsberg. Yzerman and Sakic are roughly equivalent. When it's all said and done, they were very good players for over 20 years. Sakic is a better shooter (wrist shot), but Yzerman was probably the better pure scorer. They were both excellent playmakers, and 2 of the most respected leaders of their era. (I would argue that they are #1A and #1B.) If Sakic finishes the 07-08 season, and plays 2 more (he wants to play in the 2010 olympics in his home province), he would retire after the 09-10 season, and probably finish with comparable stats to Yzerman. Yzerman: GP-1514, G-691, A-1063. Sakic (As of the beginning of this season): GP-1319, G-610, A-979. At Sakic's current clip, if he played all 82 games of this season, the next one, and 09-10, his final career numbers would look like this: GP- 1565, G-723, A- 1161. Now, since he probably won't play every game every season, and his production will likely fade, it is not unreasonable to think that his final numbers will look very similar to Yzerman's. Sakic and Yzerman are a wash. They're practically the same player. They're both excellent, and first-ballot hall of fame slam dunks. Now, Forsberg and Shanahan. This is a tougher comparison becuase Forsberg's career was atypical, and Shanahan has been a consistent contributor throughout the years. Forsberg is sort of lke Barry Sanders, because his game was mind-boggling for a short time. Shanahan is a bit more like Emmit Smith, because he consistently does his thing night to night, year to year. Forsberg had a 13 year NHL career. in 697 games, he had 248 goals and 623 assists. He was considered one of the best players in hockey, alongside Jaromir Jagr, for some of these years. Forsberg had only two 30 goal seasons, and never had more than 30 in a season. He sat out the entire 2001-2002 season after having his spleen removed and missing most of the 2001 playoffs (the Avalanche won the cup without him.) Shanahan is a pretty boy punk who found himself in the right place at the right time in Detroit, when he was surrounded by Yzerman, Fedorov, Hull, and Robitaille. Easily one of my least favourite players of all time. Kris Draper and Mike Comrie are right up there. (Don't quote this section and reply to it, I'm just venting my personal frustration with Brendy, not asserting anything as fact. ) But I digress. Shanahan has played more than twice the number of games that Forsberg has, and that cuts slightly in Shanahan's favor, but Forsberg was still the better player. By analogy: If player A were to come along and play twice as many games as Gretzky, but was still not as good, the fact that he stuck around longer wouldn't tip the scales in Player A's favor. Similar case here. Here are their career numbers as of the end of last season. Sham-ahan: GP-1417, G-627, A-667, P/G-0.9131 (1294P/1417GP) Forsberg: GP-697, G-248, A-623, P/G-1.2496 (871P/697GP) Forsberg is the clear winner. Forsberg was a well-known playmaker, Shanahan is a power forward/sniper. Thus, the desparity in goals should not surprise anyone. (But their goals per game is similar: Shanny-.44 goals/game; Foppa-.35 goals/game) But the assist numbers are a bit surprising. Forsberg has played in fewer than half of the games Shanahan has, but has only 44 fewer assists. 44!! To put that in perspective, if Forsberg played as many games as Shanahan, he would finish with 1266 assists. That would put him second all-time on the assists list, and he has the third highest assists per game as it is now. .89 A/GP. Behind only Lemieux and Gretzky. Shanahan is a good player, as hard as it is to admit, and his longevity definitely factors in, but if we're talking about these 4 players when they were healthy and playing their best hockey, then there's no way Shanahan compares to Forsberg. Forberg and Sakic. (In 2 years, I'll take Sakic and Stastny over Yzerman and Shanny too!! )

The Great Miami river in southern Ohio is nastier. And i'm sure the Cuyahoga is worse too. Beautiful American rivers. We take such excellent care of them.

http://www.denverpost.com/rockies/ci_7516111

Unbelievable. Holliday dominates almost all of the important statistical categories, had 7 assists from left field, only 3 errors, and is the heart and soul of the second best team in the National League as of the end of the regular season. He got screwed. It seems that his biggest fault was not playing east of the Mississippi River. :puke: Holliday was the MVP Tulowitzki was the Rookie of the Year (He dominated Braun in everything but HR's) Tulowitzki deserved a gold glove (Just look at the stats, it's eye-popping. How does the best defense in major league history not have a gold glover?) Helton deserved a gold glove (Derrek Lee? Seriously? C'mon.) The Rockies just had a second place year I guess... 2nd in the World Series 2nd in R.O.Y voting :puke: 2nd in MVP voting :puke: 2nd in the National League 2nd in the NL west 3rd in manager of the year They'll be back. And they won't get any national respect doing it. And it'll chap my ass every step of the way. :puke: [/complaining]

Dater is glass half full. Frei is glass half empty. I think, in tandem they make for some very good coverage of the team. And I also very much enjoy their coverage. Dater is a bit less formal, more conversational, and Frei is all business all the time. They both have an awesome sarcastic edge, which I also really like.

It wouldn't be extremely far-fetched for the Avalanche to think about putting in a claim on him. Of course, Bedaj and Theodore have been decent, so it's unlikely, but Bryz could step in and be a serious #1 contender. The Avalanche have juggled 3 goalies before. Budaj, Theo, and Kolesnik. Of course, they also just acquired Bacashihua. Unlikely, but I can speculate.

I read Cimirulla's (whatever his name is) comment as saying that Chelios was the best. But you're right, he said "one of the best."

First: I didn't know Damien Cox had all of that experience. Maybe this is just a poor article. I wanted to throw up. Second: I agree with you, the explanatory tone of many American broadcasts is tough to deal with. Third: In all fairness, there are some American hockey writers who get it right. Adrian Dater of the Denver Post does an excellent job in my opinion, and Terry Frei does a good job in general (though he is known to come up with a loser every once in a while.) -- Of course, those are both Denver-based writers, so I'm probably biased.

Fine by me. I see you started the thread already.

This guy obviously knows nothing about the NHL. Just disgusting. http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/stor...mp;lid=tab5pos1 Ignorant, consdescending, misleading, unoriginal, and generally uninformed.

Check out Cimilluca's second bit under "Is Mike Modano the greatest American born player?" (The part about Chelios specifically.) How I would love to see your reaction in person. http://cbs.sportsline.com/nhl/story/10473336/rss The gretzky argument has become rhetorical and disinteresting.

Your intelligent discussion is truly enlightening. You have undoubtedly put me in my place. I guess I am just a blind supporter. Can you forgive me BTH?! I desperately need your approval. Try this: Next time you're compelled to unleash an amateurish, little-boy rant like this one, take a few seconds to actually read what I said. If you can't read, then maybe this isn't the place for you. I disagree with PTG most of the time, but at least he sounds like he knows what he's talking about some of the time. I'm glad you're in the minority of people who takes hockey discussions as an affront to his identity. Edit: I forgot the requisite eye-roll, the final show of intelligence and originality. (That's a shout out to you, BTH. ) There it is. #99: Best ever. Mils: Checking out!!!

Once again, you might be right about what you're implying, but none of that has anything to do with who the greatest hockey player of all time is. Political clout does not equal greatness. (See: George Bush. Politically powerful, few would consider him great.) Plus, you can't back any of that up with anything other than your opinion. I know you don't feel constrained by that notion, but it's true. BTH: I found your argument to be eloquent and well thought-out "That's ridiculous... anyway." Defensemen play defense. Their offensive skill is not the crux of the argument. Judging defensemen by how well they play offense is ridiculous. That's the equivalent of saying that Ron Hextall was the greatest goaltender ever becuase he scored two goals. How was it harder to score? The nets were the same size, the defensemen were not as big or as good, and the goalies were tiny and almost exclusively played stand-up. How is that tougher? If a guy with Gretzky's vision and passing ability played in Richard's era, he'd have had a 3.5 PPG average. There's also a problem with your "they don't compare" argument. Where does it end? I can't compare guys who played 40 years apart. Can I compare guys who played 5 years apart? What about 10? If that's the case, then I probably wouldn't be allowed to make any comparisons whatsoever between Paul Stastny and Wayne Gretzky (I'm NOT comparing the two, just drawing an illustration). If 10 years is ok, what about 15? Is 20 years the cut-off? It's not like they played hockey for a few years back in the 40s, and then left and came back in the 80s, it's not that black and white.

Because Gretzky flat clobbered Richard.

In your opinion. Gretzky was a playmaker, he made others better. Gretzky didn't have to go the whole way with 2 guys on him becuase he had such better on-ice vision and anticipation than Lemieux. Everything measurable, including longevity, falls in Gretzky's favor.

We have found a fundamental difference of opinion. (And who is surprised? Anyone?) That's ok. But you'd better get the girl!! By the "comparable force" comment, I just meant that Gretzky is the scoring leader, and there is no other player that is widely considered to be the greatest of all time (widely considered being the important part of that). With basketball, Kareem scored the most points, but Jordan is considered the greatest of all time. Just commenting on the difference in situation between Kareem and Wayne.

"Great story. Compelling... and rich." -Anchorman Kareem had to deal with Jordan. There is no comparable force to eclipse Gretzky. I don't know anyone who wanted to be Brett Hull. I also never took a slapshot like Marty McInnis.... Al MacInnis maybe.