CerebusClone Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Now you are just putting a whole lot of words in my mouth, most of them are exactly the opposite. I never wanted to trade away our best prospects (I 've always saif guys like Chipchura and Lapierre should play a big role in us becoming a contender in the very near future) for a guy like Ryan Smyth, on the contrary, this team has failed to establish itself as a potential contender so there was really no point in hurting our future as well. I never wanted to sign Aucoin, in his case I did predict a major bust, just like I would have hated Gainey for signing in my opinion the biggest potential busts of 2006 in Marc Savard and Zdeno Chara. Aucoin was an average overused defenseman, and Chicago is paying for their terrible mistake. I actually agree with you on Beauchemin, and it's really Hainsey that I regret losing. I don't really care about losing Beauchemin, and honestly, he would not have made it in Montreal anyway without Scott Niedermayer and instead playing with a guy like Bouillon. As for Samsonov, of course I didn't expect him to be this awful (and I kind of blame Carbonneau, but let's not get into this one as well) however I do believe Gainey panicked when he failed to sign quality players, and signed the first moron who accepted coming to Montreal even though he obsiously didn't fill any need on our roster. instead, he could have trusted our best forward prospect Andrei Kostsitsyn, or he could have waited a little more for Anson Carter who was a better fit (I didn't want him here either, but he would have made more sense), or even J-P Dumont (of course Gainey could not have predicted he would have been available, but he had no margin left because he signed some guys too quickly). Really, you're giving Gainey a lot of credit and saying he did a great job when this team is in the exact same position it was when he took over: struggling to make the playoffs, and hoping that some prospects will save us in the future. Even in your original post you were practically saying that Gainey made a great deal in the Niinimaa/Ribeiro trade just because our 2.5 millions defenseman is not awful anymore... Amazing player Bob Gainet, but until proven otherwise... he's not a good general manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athlétique.Canadien Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 (edited) Final Jeopardy : I'll say it again and put it in different terms. If we get a new GM and basing that on BObs experience; it would probably be at best, a sideways move. So, look around. Search the GM classifieds. WHO is out there, ANYONE who can deliver what BOb does? Final Jeopardy: La la la la la la la, la la la la, la lalalalala.... Edited March 21, 2007 by ATHLÉTIQUE.CANADIEN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CerebusClone Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Well, I am convinced it does not really matter to you. You are just going to wait til Price, Latendresse, Kostitsyn "plateau" at 19/20/22 and then you will once again look back in hindsight and tell us how dumb Gainey is. If Montreal held that attitude with Patrick Roy and believed he plateaued in 86 and dealt him when he was totally average in 87 how would the last 20 years have looked. What indicator has shown you that they will all plateau? The inside out move Lats pulled before he roofed it last night? The behind the back pass Big #### made against the Isles or the subtle drag and quick shot that Raycroft still has not seen? Or the World Junior MVP that Price just won? I'm not actually expecting our prospects to plateau, but they are only prospects, and even some of the best ones become busts. On the contrary, I'm actually very excited about the incredible job Andre Savard and Trevor Timmins have done so far to the point where I actually have blind faith in them, and trust that David Fischer and Carey Price were the right guys for us. But that's the thing; they have taken tangible positive actions that make me trust them. I too until recently trusted Bob Gainey, but really, when you start evaluating Gainey's work, there's nothing to work on. We're still struggling to make the playoffs, we still don't have a solid core of quality players, and we're still only waiting for prospects to eventually emerge. The results are still not there, you can't tell me otherwise. I don't care if our players are bigger than they were, or if the skill level is a little higher; the tangible results are the same. Of course, we have a bright future... but we also had a bright future when Gainey took over. So far, he has failed to make that future a reality. How much longer are you ready to wait? 2 years? 5 years? Another 10-year rebuilding phase? If this wasn't Montreal where people go to games no matter what, we'd be bankrupted by now and thinking of moving to Kansas City. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexstream Posted March 21, 2007 Author Share Posted March 21, 2007 Now you are just putting a whole lot of words in my mouth, most of them are exactly the opposite. I never wanted to trade away our best prospects (I 've always saif guys like Chipchura and Lapierre should play a big role in us becoming a contender in the very near future) for a guy like Ryan Smyth, on the contrary, this team has failed to establish itself as a potential contender so there was really no point in hurting our future as well. I never wanted to sign Aucoin, in his case I did predict a major bust, just like I would have hated Gainey for signing in my opinion the biggest potential busts of 2006 in Marc Savard and Zdeno Chara. Aucoin was an average overused defenseman, and Chicago is paying for their terrible mistake. I actually agree with you on Beauchemin, and it's really Hainsey that I regret losing. I don't really care about losing Beauchemin, and honestly, he would not have made it in Montreal anyway without Scott Niedermayer and instead playing with a guy like Bouillon. As for Samsonov, of course I didn't expect him to be this awful (and I kind of blame Carbonneau, but let's not get into this one as well) however I do believe Gainey panicked when he failed to sign quality players, and signed the first moron who accepted coming to Montreal even though he obsiously didn't fill any need on our roster. instead, he could have trusted our best forward prospect Andrei Kostsitsyn, or he could have waited a little more for Anson Carter who was a better fit (I didn't want him here either, but he would have made more sense), or even J-P Dumont (of course Gainey could not have predicted he would have been available, but he had no margin left because he signed some guys too quickly). Really, you're giving Gainey a lot of credit and saying he did a great job when this team is in the exact same position it was when he took over: struggling to make the playoffs, and hoping that some prospects will save us in the future. Even in your original post you were practically saying that Gainey made a great deal in the Niinimaa/Ribeiro trade just because our 2.5 millions defenseman is not awful anymore... Amazing player Bob Gainet, but until proven otherwise... he's not a good general manager. If you look at the end result, yes, the habs are still struggling to make the playoffs... but if you look on a player by player basis. If you look on a game by game basis... really this is not the same quality, the same caliber of team. Night in, Night out, our team can beat the best teams in the leauge. At one point this season, they were first in the league. The problem which in itself is not really a problem, is that we have too many youngsters... Our 1st line production was resting on Higgins shoulders. We then went to Latendresse to take the load... Right now, we're relying on Kostytsyn For The Win. I don't really think this team has a problem. We have some needs (e.g. we need Price to come over ASAP. We need another 1st line center, as good or better than Koivu and we need a fixture on D)... but what team doesn't? The "problem" this season is that this team is to full of youth... and who says youth, says inconsistency. Don't forget that we also have a rookie coach, who makes mistakes once in a while... e.g. Keeping the same line together for too long... then juggling too much with everyline. I just think that we have a marvelous team with awesome potential which is all blossoming slowly... Too slow for you... but I like what I see. We're not the best this season... but with the rookies at full potential, and with so many great players in the organisations as "trade assets" (at one point, we'll have to stop piling them and start trading them) we'll soon be on top of the league. But Gainey won't deserve any credit, right? Gauthier and Timmins will deserve that credit I guess. Final Jeopardy : I'll say it again and put it in different terms. If we get a new GM and basing that on BObs experience; it would probably be at best, a sideways move. So, look around. Search the GM classifieds. WHO is out there, ANYONE who can deliver what BOb does? BG's successor will surely be Pierre Gauthier. I don't know when, why, how BG will resign... I hope it doesn't happen soon... but when it does, Pierre Gauthier will surely be the guy. I'm not actually expecting our prospects to plateau, but they are only prospects, and even some of the best ones become busts. On the contrary, I'm actually very excited about the incredible job Andre Savard and Trevor Timmins have done so far to the point where I actually have blind faith in them, and trust that David Fischer and Carey Price were the right guys for us. But that's the thing; they have taken tangible positive actions that make me trust them. I too until recently trusted Bob Gainey, but really, when you start evaluating Gainey's work, there's nothing to work on. We're still struggling to make the playoffs, we still don't have a solid core of quality players, and we're still only waiting for prospects to eventually emerge. The results are still not there, you can't tell me otherwise. I don't care if our players are bigger than they were, or if the skill level is a little higher; the tangible results are the same. Of course, we have a bright future... but we also had a bright future when Gainey took over. So far, he has failed to make that future a reality. How much longer are you ready to wait? 2 years? 5 years? Another 10-year rebuilding phase? If this wasn't Montreal where people go to games no matter what, we'd be bankrupted by now and thinking of moving to Kansas City. So, you'll agree with me that Rejean Houle is not to blame for the terrible drafting of the 90's??? It's not Houle eh? it's his drafting team that should take the blame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CerebusClone Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 I'm with Chicoutimi Cucumber on how to evaluate a GM - it has to be done by virtue of the information available at the time. Signing Samsonov was a good move, and I was ecstatic when it happened, as was everyone I talked to. If he had had even an average season, the 3.5 would have been well worth it. The fact that he sucks does not make it a bad move in retrospect. As for Theodore, the notion of not signing Theodore following what most people forget was his second all-star season would have been absolutely ludicrous. He was the only habs to have a Hart in his trophy case since Guy Lafleur, and he was an All-Star goalie. Gainey would not have been fired; he would have been ASSASSINATED. Seriously, he would be dead. To suggest that the normal dynamics of trade value or market value could even come into play for a Montreal-area francophone rumoured to suffer from bouts of stigmata is to completely ignore the parameters within which a Montreal GM cannot choose but to operate. That Gainey was able to sign him for the amount he did was impressive in itself - he could have gotten more elsewhere, I'm sure, and it was likely only Theodore's knowledge that playing in Montreal would promise more advertising and endorsement revenue than, say, anywhere that kept him here. It must have taken one blister of a poker face to stare down Theo's agent and make him forget that Gainey's hands were essentially tied. I agree you can't blame Gainey for not trading Theodore after his huge season, and on the short-run people would have been all over him. There's no denying that. I'm just saying that it was a great missed opportinity, and it might have been better for the organization. It would have been an extremely bold move, and almost no general manager would have done that. However, I think you guys are spending to much time on each event, instead of looking at the big picture. Of course every GM makes some good decision, and some bad ones. You can't predict the future. However, you praising Gainey for every "non negative" action he has taken, and blindly forgiving the negative ones. I don't care about each and every decision Gainey has taken. However, the fact is that the result of all his decisions so far is a team that has not really moved forward since Bob Gainey took over as general manager. We are not in a better position in the standings today, and we are still just hoping for the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athlétique.Canadien Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 BG's successor will surely be Pierre Gauthier. I don't know when, why, how BG will resign... I hope it doesn't happen soon... but when it does, Pierre Gauthier will surely be the guy. Most likely and he would be a confident GM. But, we lose the General that is Gainey. It's funny how we all seem to evaluate a GM based solely on "moves". But there is more to the job. I hate to use a same ol' example but (Brisebois) the media and the city needs a General GM to be strong. I'm talking moutarde here. Very few in the business have the moutarde to call the people "yellow". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexstream Posted March 21, 2007 Author Share Posted March 21, 2007 yup. BG brougth in Pierre Gauthier. BG can shut the hell from the Media once in a while BG settled our injury problems (better conditioning coach? better doctor?? we were worst in the league as far as injury were concerned... for 2-3 back to back seasons... then some personel changes and... hurray, no more injuries) BG trusted Timmins and didn't let Andre Savard takeover Timmins. etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CerebusClone Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 So, you'll agree with me that Rejean Houle is not to blame for the terrible drafting of the 90's??? It's not Houle eh? it's his drafting team that should take the blame At his point, we could add drafting to the list of things Houle didn't so well... it wouldn't really matter... hope you won't try convincing me that Houle was a great GM, whi just needed more time to make us a contender You just listed a few reasons why were not as good as we should be this season, and they're all Gainey's responsibilities: It is Gainey who failed to provide better support for our youngsters. If we had a quality veteran that would lead Latendresse and Lapierre instead of the other way around, maybe we would be more consistent. I believe giving so much responsibilties to an unrealible Alex Kovalev is one of Gainey's worst moves, and a major reason we are so inconsistent. As you mentionned, Gainey also failed to find another good center for the top 2 lines (even though I think Plekanec is a step up from Ribeiro). Bob Gainey is the one who once again named a rookie coach with no experience. Considering we have a very young team looking for an identity, wouldn't it have made so much more sense to hire a proven, experienced coach like Ted Nolan (it's just an exemple, but this guy has done a great jobwith much less potantial than we have in Montreal)? An unexperienced coach for un unexperienced team... not the smartest move from Gainey. As I mentionned, I agree with you that we have great potential, but we need a general manager that will make concrete actions to fulfill it. So far, Gainey hasn't convinced me that he's the man for the job... but this summer will be crucial, and I might become once again a believer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Petrov Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 (edited) I concur with CAC and Alexstream. In the words of Quentin Tarantino, "Personality goes a long way." I thought Savard was a good GM, too, but he didn't have what it takes to be a Montreal GM. Remember that game in Jersey in '03? (MSG? I don't remember exactly where it was.) An NHL GM trailed refs to their room, screaming his head off: Savard LOST IT. He cracked, plain and simple. Edited March 21, 2007 by Oleg Petrov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexstream Posted March 21, 2007 Author Share Posted March 21, 2007 At his point, we could add drafting to the list of things Houle didn't so well... it wouldn't really matter... hope you won't try convincing me that Houle was a great GM, whi just needed more time to make us a contender You just listed a few reasons why were not as good as we should be this season, and they're all Gainey's responsibilities: It is Gainey who failed to provide better support for our youngsters. If we had a quality veteran that would lead Latendresse and Lapierre instead of the other way around, maybe we would be more consistent. I believe giving so much responsibilties to an unrealible Alex Kovalev is one of Gainey's worst moves, and a major reason we are so inconsistent. As you mentionned, Gainey also failed to find another good center for the top 2 lines (even though I think Plekanec is a step up from Ribeiro). Bob Gainey is the one who once again named a rookie coach with no experience. Considering we have a very young team looking for an identity, wouldn't it have made so much more sense to hire a proven, experienced coach like Ted Nolan (it's just an exemple, but this guy has done a great jobwith much less potantial than we have in Montreal)? An unexperienced coach for un unexperienced team... not the smartest move from Gainey. As I mentionned, I agree with you that we have great potential, but we need a general manager that will make concrete actions to fulfill it. So far, Gainey hasn't convinced me that he's the man for the job... but this summer will be crucial, and I might become once again a believer. We need vet, yet, you bash BG for getting the vets we have who are stealing rookies spots... Don't you think that such a thing as "transition season" exists. Ok, let's get a deal. admit that we cannot judge Gainey's work for now, since the rookies are still too inconsistent, etc... to afford making big trades or big signings... and I'll admit that the team we have this season doesn't score enough from the 3rd and has two useless Russian... etc. and that we can improve on that team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athlétique.Canadien Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 (edited) I concur with CAC and Alexstream. In the words of Quentin Tarantino, "Personality goes a long way." I thought Savard was a good GM, too, but he didn't have what it takes to be a Montreal GM. Remember that game in Jersey in '03? (MSG? I don't remember exactly where it was.) An NHL GM trailed refs to their room, screaming his head off: Savard LOST IT. He cracked, plain and simple. Hackett was run over while in his crease resulting in him exiting the crease and a winning goal was the damage. Also, it was (rumour) Savard who wanted to draft Kosty Jr. at the 45th when we took Lats. Gainey manages to grab Kosty Jr way later. Savard was an excellent scout and OK GM. His faults were not having a better read on the other 29 GM's (aka: Hackett from SJ to BOS) Gainey knows the strengths and weaknesses of others better than many. He must have known Kosty Jr. would be available later because he knew the other orgs would miss him (not on their radar) but Savard lacks in this area. It was (rumoured again) this Latendresse/Kosty Jr. issue which created the rift which saw Savard go. I am getting tired of arguing about this. For those who don't dig BOb - TOO BAD! Edited March 21, 2007 by ATHLÉTIQUE.CANADIEN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CerebusClone Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 We need vet, yet, you bash BG for getting the vets we have who are stealing rookies spots... Don't you think that such a thing as "transition season" exists. Ok, let's get a deal. admit that we cannot judge Gainey's work for now, since the rookies are still too inconsistent, etc... to afford making big trades or big signings... and I'll admit that the team we have this season doesn't score enough from the 3rd and has two useless Russian... etc. and that we can improve on that team. Actually, I don't think any of our lines score enough goals on a consistent basis... Let's instead make a deal to wait until this summer to see what Gainey does Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexstream Posted March 21, 2007 Author Share Posted March 21, 2007 Actually, I don't think any of our lines score enough goals on a consistent basis... Let's instead make a deal to wait until this summer to see what Gainey does ok... wait, didn't you say that we couldn't do it move by move? *sigh* DEAL : Let's wait this summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts