BG's doubters once again defeated... (NOT)

[alexstream]

Niinimaa is playing pretty decently recently. Really stable partner and doing well with Sheldon. Let's you believe that his injury riddled season, last year, put him out of game shape so that he couldn't deliver untill recently. He was damaged goods, but not irreparable. it took him a while to get there... but the important thing is that he got there. He's not a "stud" but can provide some stability. Don't forget that this guy has some mileage, he's got some good experience being the go to guy on defense in Edmonton and Long Island for some seasons.

But principally... P L E K A N E C has been outplaying Ribeiro by a WIDE margin recently.

here is for you to compare:

Plekanec

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/players/splits?playerId=1933

Ribeiro

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/players/splits?playerId=776

The breakdown :

Ribeiro started off at his usual pace of a tad higher than 0.5 ppg, was then better in january and february (when everyother players are cold, Ribs tends to be the "hottest" guy...) to then cool off when it matters the most, in March... up to now, in 10 games in March, he's got 5 pts and is a minus 6.

Plekanec totally choked under the pressure of being the habs 2nd line center... he really couldn't deliver and was for a moment, the cause of that line's failure... After some line jugglings by Carbo, he returned to 2nd line and kinda found his pace and got his confidence back...

So much so that in his last 34 games, he has collected an outstanding 30 pts, best among Habs (23 for saku and ryder, 26 for Shedon).

during these 34 games, he was a +5 and is +7 for the season, on a team which is mostly on the negative. Ribs on his side is a +1.

For the same stretch, Ribs got 21 pts in 32 games, being a -6.

At that pace, Plekanec might be able to pass Ribeiro's points total for the season. (Ribs actually has 47 pts and Plek has 42 pts)

[ShortHanded]

Niinimaa is playing pretty decently recently. Really stable partner and doing well with Sheldon. Let's you believe that his injury riddled season, last year, put him out of game shape so that he couldn't deliver untill recently. He was damaged goods, but not irreparable. it took him a while to get there... but the important thing is that he got there. He's not a "stud" but can provide some stability. Don't forget that this guy has some mileage, he's got some good experience being the go to guy on defense in Edmonton and Long Island for some seasons.

But principally... P L E K A N E C has been outplaying Ribeiro by a WIDE margin recently.

here is for you to compare:

Plekanec

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/players/splits?playerId=1933

Ribeiro

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/players/splits?playerId=776

The breakdown :

Ribeiro started off at his usual pace of a tad higher than 0.5 ppg, was then better in january and february (when everyother players are cold, Ribs tends to be the "hottest" guy...) to then cool off when it matters the most, in March... up to now, in 10 games in March, he's got 5 pts and is a minus 6.

Plekanec totally choked under the pressure of being the habs 2nd line center... he really couldn't deliver and was for a moment, the cause of that line's failure... After some line jugglings by Carbo, he returned to 2nd line and kinda found his pace and got his confidence back...

So much so that in his last 34 games, he has collected an outstanding 30 pts, best among Habs (23 for saku and ryder, 26 for Shedon).

during these 34 games, he was a +5 and is +7 for the season, on a team which is mostly on the negative. Ribs on his side is a +1.

For the same stretch, Ribs got 21 pts in 32 games, being a -6.

At that pace, Plekanec might be able to pass Ribeiro's points total for the season. (Ribs actually has 47 pts and Plek has 42 pts)

I'm not going to say anything about the Niniimaa / ribs trade, bc I'm glad Ribs is off the team no matter whether you consider that he's had a good year on the ice or not. He would have never been the player we wanted him to be here, so it's good that he's gone, and he added more controversy than anything else...

I'm still not sold that we should sign niniimaa to anything long term, even for a pay cut, though he has been playing well lately... but a few games doesn't prove anything yet...

I like the kind of player Plex is turning into, but it's too early to say anything yet.

Either way, I think the trade was a good trade no matter what. Hindsight on Niniima / Ribs is always 20/20, and BG knows his hockey much better than I know mine...

[JMMR]

I was always a fan of the trade for the same resons that short handed stated.

But Niinimaa was playing well to begin the season with Dandenault then Dandy got hurt and Niinimaa had to switch sides playing his wrong side. He played poorly and has not been given a chance to play again until recently.

[CerebusClone]

Bob Gainey acquires a 2.5M reserve defenseman (it was only a temporary solution until Bouillon got back), and because Niinimaa didn't play awful hockey in the last two games I should be convinced that he's a good general manager?

Sorry... I personally still think that Gainey is just awful as a GM... great player, but a really lousy GM.

Gainey has not only done nothing positive since he got the job, but he tied our hands for the near future by negociating large multi-year contracts to players who aren't going to have any positive impact on our performances. I'm not just talking about the likes of Samsonov and Kovalev, but also the ridiculous contracts he offered to marginal players like Begin, Bouillon, Dandeneault, and Murray.

Some people will say that this team has improved under Gainey, which is true, but the only reason we are somewhat better is due to the emergence of young players like Komisarek, Higgins, and Plekanec who were all drafted by Andre Savard. Other than that, almost all our "core" (if we can call it that) players were already here when Gainey became GM.

The only somewhat positives I can give Gainey credit for are:

- Trading Balej for Kovalev as a rental for the playoffs. Unfortunately, he messed this one up by awarding Kovalev - a veteran known throughout the league for being inconsistent and unreliable - a huge multi-year contract, and making this guy a player on which we must rely.

- Acquiring Huet in the Garon deal... however Gainey admitted himself that he knew absolutely nothing of Huet when he made the trade. We blame players for making blind passes, but our GM makes blind trades!

- The excellent work of his amateur scouting teams... although the credit really goes to Trevor Timmins and Andre Savard.

Sorry, but Bob Gainey will have to work miracles this summer for me to even consider him as a decent GM. Every single player on this roster was a direct choice of Bob Gainey, either signed or acquired via a trade, and the results are just not there. Not to mention that once naming a rookie coach with no experience was stupid... one day I'd like to know why the greatest hockey organization in the world can't hire a proven, experienced coach instead of being a coaching school.

After a few years as GM, with the prospects and young players we have in the system, with the few decent veterans we have (or had), and with the maximum allowed budget for the last two seasons, I think a decent general manager should have done a much better job.

Edited March 20, 2007 by CerebusClone

[alexstream]

do you ever look else where? consider the market, etc?

Begin and Bouillon are our most "heart and soul" kinda players... they give it all every game and Bouillon has just come back in game shape from his long injury (as shown vs Toronto)

they are totally worth their money and if you look at the market (UFA) you won't find such players any cheaper than that.

Kovalev contract : you would have been the first to bash BG for NOT signing Kovalev back after the lockout... Don't say no, guys like you are always bashing ready.

Samsonov contract : it's only 2 seasons, one of the shortest contract signed this offseason, kuddos to BG for acchieving to negotiate a shorter contract... If you look at the recent trend, all the guys sign for 4-5 years... With hindsight, Sykora would have been a better choice... but with Hindsight, we wouldnt have traded Roy and with Hindsight, we would have drafted Denis Savard, and with hindsight we woudl have drafted Marian Hossa, Lidstrom, Sergei Fedorov and... ###### "hindsight". At the time of the signing, Everyone was asking for BG's head for not signing anyone... Sykora had two back to back CRAP seasons on his record... and Sammy was the best available. Too bad it turned out well...

BG was brought over to give this team STABILITY... At the same time 4-5 years ago, you were surely bashing the management for being unsucessful at establishing stability...

What BG has done:

-gave the drafting reigns to Timmens over Savard (savard left because of his "peon" role)

-brought a well respected ex-player, with lots of leadership who has won 3 Stanley cups and has consistently played on winning teams. an exemple for the younger players and a good coach to build a team with.

-brought back Kovalev to provide a star for the team, a constant "menace" on the ice... although he doesn't score as much this season, I must agree with JMMR that the opposition is on its heels when Kovalev is on the ice. yes the contract is too long... but it's the contract that was needed to have a "star" on the team... No one else signed for lower (Demitra 6.5M, Palffy 6M, Satan 4.5M) and no one else signed for shorter (all 4-5 years contracts)

-NEVER PANICKED and pull a L.A. GM 2006 deadline kinda move (trading Grebeshkov and Tambellini for UFAs Sopel and Parrish) or by pulling a K Lowe: trading his best players for ifs and maybes... b/c he couldn't agree to a contract. (Markov stated that he wanted to stay, Souray is back with his wife and she said she'd consider moving over if he re-signs here) Moreover keeping these guys was absolutly necessary to have some chances to make the playoffs (we're still in the race) and was also pretty good for the development of the youngsters IMO... Kost and Halak (could also mention Plek, Lats, higgins, etc) are getting way more by playing on a competitive team (with souray and markov) than by playing on a team that threw the towel (like Edmonton)

-Is keeping most of the youngsters and giving them chances to show off. Is trading the right ones... Didn't make any trading mistake yet (à la Leclair and desjardins to philly... he just traded Hossa and Balej and both are busts.)

-As a matter of fact has only made GOOD trades up to now. (even if Rivet is doing well in SJ, I consider that a good trade, IMO, Rivet was too important for his limited talent.)

-Has HUGELY increased the SIZE of the lineup... (We used to be dwarves... we now are in or near the league average)

-Is filling the team needs one by one... from the 2500 needs we had 2-3 seasons ago, we're now down to 2 : an additional TOP Dman and an additional top line center.

[CerebusClone]

You're gonna tell me that you can't find a small, low-skilled 6th defenseman for less than 1.875M around the league? I liked Bouillon when he was a 6th/7th defenseman at a low salary, but he's just not worth his current price tag. Nothing against the guy, but his salary is a liability. Dandeneault as well. These guys are just glorified reserve defensemen, and we could have easily replaced one of them with a veteran like Sean Hill or Todd Simpson (who easily replaced an injured Bouillon last year), Mark Streit, or perhaps even a youngster like O'Byrne (although I'm glad he's a getting a full year's worth of experience in the AHL).

I don't think I do much bashing overall, I'm just think Bob Gainey is not a good general manager. He has no vision, he doen't evaluate his needs or his talents well, and he keeps filling the lineup with whoever has no other options than to play here; I honestly really can't think of many positives about him so far; wish I could...

You say he doesn't make too many trading mistakes, but while he signed a marginal overrated 7th defenseman like Dandeneault, we saw two of our young defensemen blossom elsewhere in the NHL in Francois Beauchemin and Ron Hainey, both far better players and both signed small contracts this summer. We lost Beauchemin because Gainey didn't offer him a monir-league contract while a logjam of ordinary dmen prevented us from giving Hainey a true chance in Montreal. He acquired Niinimaa and his 2.5M contract as a temporary 1-month filler while a combinaison of Streit, O'Byrne, Janveski, ... could have easily done the job, thus giving us more margin this season.

He rushed to signed a trio of marginal forwards - not to say minor leaguers - in Begin, Murray, and Downey while he could have easily looked for better options in the UFA market. Also, only one of them would have been plenty, either Murray or Begin.

I get that people love Bob Gainey for the player he was, but he's just not good as general manager, especially not without a large budget like he had in Dallas.

Edited March 20, 2007 by CerebusClone

[alexstream]

you just don't seem to appreciate Begin and Bouillon... if you remove that from your post, there is not much left...

I agree about Dandy, but then again, we needed a dman, he plays with heart and was the cheapest on the market (aucoin etc signing for 4M... Dandy is almost playing better than Aucoin for less than half the price )

I somewhat agree about Niinimaa, although I was just glad to see ribs gone.

His only real mistake was about Beauchemin...

Hainsey? well he was really showing NOTHING here... and when we lost him, we were actually badly in need of a dman so we had to call him up... we were victim of the re-entry waiver rule...

[CerebusClone]

you just don't seem to appreciate Begin and Bouillon... if you remove that from your post, there is not much left...

It's not that I don't like them, I just think they are glorified marginal depth players simply because they are hard-working francophone players. I don't see why we had to waste over 3M over 3 years while we had a young guy like Maxim Lapierre who is far superior in pretty much every aspect of the game, as well as Chipchura coming up soon. In my opinion, a one-year ~750K contract would have been fair to both sides since Begin could probably end up in the AHL if it weren't for Montreal, and Montreal only needs him temporarily.

[CBHabs_fan]

Bob Gainey acquires a 2.5M reserve defenseman (it was only a temporary solution until Bouillon got back), and because Niinimaa didn't play awful hockey in the last two games I should be convinced that he's a good general manager?

Sorry... I personally still think that Gainey is just awful as a GM... great player, but a really lousy GM.

Agreed on the bold. I wont say Gainey is lousy as a GM, cuz I like the general direction. But there are some bad moves and this is still one onf them.

Are we so fickle that Ninimaa is not god-awful for a couple games and we are now praising him again? Come on...we would have paid to get rid of him last week (and still will). Let's not praise Bob for this one, shall we...we still could have much better for Ribs

[JMMR]

Well we could believe that Niinimaa has been terrible. Or we could look at the games he played on his correct side and played on regular basis.

Sure he struggled this year but playing the wrong side can be really difficult.

[revin5]

- Acquiring Huet in the Garon deal... however Gainey admitted himself that he knew absolutely nothing of Huet when he made the trade. We blame players for making blind passes, but our GM makes blind trades!

That deal would have been great even if it didn't include Huet. Bonk, despite what everyone has to say about him, was great for us last year. He didn't score, but he did what we needed him to and he did it well..

[CerebusClone]

Just curious. Which "direction" are you referring to? I really can't tell of any direction Gainey is taking, and I'm not referring to him to speaking to the media because it's ridiculous to think that a GM should justify every move (or lack of move) in front of the media.

To me Gainey just seems to be improvising. However, I do hope he proves me wrong this summer, and signs (or resigns) the right players for this team. And if none of them want to play here, I hope he signs no one, and gives an extra kid or two a chance to play.

[JMMR]

I hope and believe he will prove you wrong Cerebus Clone.

[CerebusClone]

That deal would have been great even if it didn't include Huet. Bonk, despite what everyone has to say about him, was great for us last year. He didn't score, but he did what we needed him to and he did it well..

We don't have the same definition of "great" then. Even if we concentrate on this season alone, Bonk has played decent defense, but has shown pratially no offence. To me, a defensive center who hardly produces 20 points despite playing over 16 minutes per game is not a good 3rd liner. Plus he's a little soft, and I don't exactly trust him when games get tough and physical.

I'd rather have a guy like Chris Gratton, who's big, physical, and will give you 35-45 points in a full season. He makes 1.5M this year, which I think is appropriate for a good third line center. Or even a guy like Eric Belanger (even if we forget his current production level playing with Hossa and Kozlov).

Plekanec could make a good third line center next season, provided we find a good offensive center, or get a big surprise season from a guy like Grabovsky.

[alexstream]

Just curious. Which "direction" are you referring to? I really can't tell of any direction Gainey is taking, and I'm not referring to him to speaking to the media because it's ridiculous to think that a GM should justify every move (or lack of move) in front of the media.

To me Gainey just seems to be improvising. However, I do hope he proves me wrong this summer, and signs (or resigns) the right players for this team. And if none of them want to play here, I hope he signs no one, and gives an extra kid or two a chance to play.

How is he improvising, he's building on youth goddamn!!! You can't blame him for letting the youth take increasingly more place on the lineup while putting some vets here and there for more stability...

Try to find one team, other than SJ, which can boast to have more youngsters than us:

Higgins, Plek, Komo, Lats, Halak, Kost, Lapierre, Gorges, Perez.. even Milroy and Grabovsky!!!

BG can't just give ALL the roster spots to the youngsters from day one... that's impossible. They would choke under the pressure and it could affect negatively their development. He's doing what's best to be done. He's inserting them gradually, as they become ready (Kost wasn't ready at the beginning of the season. he's playing good now, but was invisible in his first call up)

another GM might have traded some of these guys before we can see what they can bring to the team (Leclair and Desjardins) and might have signed way more vets than we have now (Yannick Perrault, Doug Gilmour, Joe Juneau, Andreas Dackell, Marius Czerkawski, Randy McKay etc... all stealing roster spot to Ryder and Ribeiro... we missed playoffs in 2002-2003 because Andre Savard signed too many of these guys)

Having just Kovalev (which if you follow JMMR's train of thought, is not a bad thing), Dandenault and Sammy stealing useful roster spot is not bad.

I won't concede an inch on the Begin and Bouillon debate though, heck, just look at the replay of Kost goal vs TO and you'll see that Cube is at the origine of that goal on a beautiful bodycheck to Tucker. Lapierre might have more upside than Begin on the long term, but right now, Begin is the better player, grittier and with more leadership. If I have to bench one of the two, I bench Lapierre (Murray is useless though... but we couldn't "guess" that Lapierre would be ready this season, he was out of QMJHL and never played pro before + Murray is cheap as dirt)

[huzer]

Interesting thread, actually. To touch on the Ribeiro/Niinimaa trade...well, at least we swapped draft picks too...the Habs get a 5th rounder this year, the Stars get a 6th rounder in 2008.

Seems Habs GMs (overall...although Brisebois is the chief negotiator) have been horrid with contracts the past few years. I didn't agree with either of the Begin or Bouillon deals (one of the few here at the time that wasn't happy with them). Too much money for a 4th liner and a depth defenseman.

As far as direction, I see more youngsters getting ice time than they have in the past.

[RobRock]

I don't think I do much bashing overall, I'm just think Bob Gainey is not a good general manager. He has no vision, he doen't evaluate his needs or his talents well, and he keeps filling the lineup with whoever has no other options than to play here; I honestly really can't think of many positives about him so far; wish I could

Gainey has no vision? I think he has a vision of what the team will be, and has had one since the day he took the job. He said from day one he wanted to develop players within the organization, and we are beginning to see some of that development produce modestly this season in Plekanec, Kostitsyn, Halak, Komisarek, Perezhogin. Nobody in their right minds thought that the team would have started so well, but when it did, many saw visions of Cup parades and banner raising. Too bad it was November. When the train dot derailed (for whatever reason), it would have been very easy for Gainey to try to take advantage of the early success, grab a bunch of underachieving vets from other teams, gut the farm system, and make a run for this year. But runs like those aren't always successful, and Gainey has been smart enough to see that over the years. You can add a piece or two for a cup run, but when you have five or six pieces to fill, then you have to ask yourself if you're really better off going that route then having to rebuild it all from scratch in a couple of years, or staying with the status quo, seeing the team develop and grow together and getting a few chances at deep playoffs runs down the road.

Gainey has no vision? Yeah, I think he does. It may not be the same as yours, or mine, but he has a vision, and it's his team. we're just along for the ride, and we ahve to live with the decisions he makes and the results of those decisions.

[CerebusClone]

So, basically Gainey's vision is to pray to God that most of our prospects will turn out to be good players, and make this team a Cup contender in a few years? That's not a vision, that's just gambling. Besides, you can't give Bob Gainey credit because his team so awful that they were forced to bring up guys like Halak, Grabovsky, Milroy, and Kostsitsyn; none of these guys were in the plans for this season, and the team even prefered playing guys like Streit, Downey, and Murray before them.

I think that Montreal should be in a much better position considering what Gainey's inherited a few years ago. He brought in (or kept) the wrong veterans, delayed the arrival of a few prospects and signed too many marginal players which caused a small log jam at the froward, and made it hard for his coachess to make room to some good prospects like Ron Hainsey.

Really, you are giving Gainey a lot of credit for sitting on his back, and just waiting a few years for young players to emerge. Maybe it will work on the long run, but today, Gainey's decisions (his team) so far are a failure.

[smon]

Besides, you can't give Bob Gainey credit because his team so awful that they were forced to bring up guys like Halak, Grabovsky, Milroy, and Kostsitsyn; none of these guys were in the plans for this season, and the team even prefered playing guys like Streit, Downey, and Murray before them.

I don't agree with everything you wrote, but I can see the logic behind this and I have to agree with it. The team didn't plan to give players Halak and Kostitsyn roles this year, they were only handed to them because of injury and after all the reserves got a chance first.

Do some people have too much blind faith in Gainey? Yes, yes they do. And many observers will agree that he tends to overpay and overcommit in terms of dollars and cents to players, as you mention Bouillon, Begin, Kovalev and Samsonov. But I still believe that he can get this franchise farther than his recent predecessors, and to judge based on a couple of average years that we've had since he was hired isn't really fair.

What will make or break his reputation to me will be this offseason. There's a lot of tough decisions to be made and undoubtedly some players have worn out their welcome here in Montreal. The question will be whether Gainey can turn these non-performers in credible assets, either via free agency, internal promotion or trade.

[alexstream]

I think that Montreal should be in a much better position considering what Gainey's inherited a few years ago . He brought in (or kept) the wrong veterans, delayed the arrival of a few prospects and signed too many marginal players which caused a small log jam at the froward, and made it hard for his coachess to make room to some good prospects like Ron Hainsey.

Really, you are giving Gainey a lot of credit for sitting on his back, and just waiting a few years for young players to emerge. Maybe it will work on the long run, but today, Gainey's decisions (his team) so far are a failure.

What the **** did you smoke?!!

he inherited Donald Audette, Joe Juneau and Andreas Dackell...

holy **** man... One post you start to convince me, the next post, you totally lose your credibility. That's it for today, I'm done with that topic, you disgusted me out of it...

"Considering what he inherited"...

yeah, Considering what he inherited, we're DAMN LUCKY to be that good!!!

just go read 7th post down, on this thread: http://forums.habsworld.net/index.php?showtopic=11131

That's a small history recap I've written, from 1998 to today, how we got out of the gutter to come back to respectability. You'll see what "shit" he inherited.

[smon]

More on topic, to celebrate over Ninimaa's play in the last couple of games is a bit premature. He's still nowhere near the defenseman he was and I strongly expect he will return home to Finland after this year, much like how Sundstrom and Dackell returned to pro hockey in their home countries, but to his everlasting credit at least Janne just tries to keep it simple and play hard with a positive attitude. He's a good guy, but let's not start comparing to the Janne Ninimaa of the late '90s just yet.

Plekanec's progressed farther than Ribiero though, anyone can see that. Ribs is just having a typical on and off year in Dallas.

[OneSharpMarble]

Gainey has done nothing to impress me looking back. He wasn't behind the Huet trade, signed a disaster like Kovalev, got rid of Theodore but honestly I think Colorado would have taken him even if he lost both legs in a car accident.

Now that he didn't move Souray I think he is below average. Just because he sits on his hands and seems to be too scared to make a move doesn't mean he is some omnipotent GM. When he addresses the same problems plaguing this team for years then things will look up but so far he has just tossed in some filler players.

Cerebrus makes alot of sense.

[CerebusClone]

What the **** did you smoke?!!

he inherited Donald Audette, Joe Juneau and Andreas Dackell...

I wasn't exactly refering to those guys, whom I never liked by the way. I was talking more in terms of the prospects drafted by Andre Savard. With a good prospects base as well as Koivu, Markov, Rivet, Souray, and a very few others, I think Gainey could have built something much better so far.

Really, many think (including myself) that the Habs are perhaps 2 good players away from being a solid team, but Gainey failed to bring in those guys. Instead, he chose guys like Kovalev and Bonk are were both known to be "gutless wonders" (New York and Ottawa couldn't be happier to get rid of them), as well as Samsonov who didn't really fill any need we had, or Janne Niinimaa, or even Dandeneault who's a really nice guy but just doesn't bring much to the table.

That's a lot of money right there who could have being used so much better. There's a lot of quality players out there making the same kind of money as Kovalev and Samsonov. How can we justify giving 3.5M to Samsonov who's had an average season last year when before him, Selanne got that kind of money for one season only after a 40-goal 90-point season? Ray Whitney is making 1.5M in Carolina, and he's always had similar or better numbers than Samsonov.

Those are veteran players hand-picked by Bob Gainey who are making a lot of money, and not bringing much to the table (at least not on a consistent basis).

[JMMR]

Selanne chose to stay with the Ducks for a few reasons. One being his wife who enjoys the warm climate, Selanne said he would love to play with Koivu but his wife does not want to live in the cold environment.

Samsonov was not Gainey's first choice and sure it looks like he was a mistake. Bonk has helped the team a lot this year, although I do not believe he will be back next year.

As for Gainey sitting on his hands, I would much rather that then him consistantly trading and changing the make up of the team.

[CerebusClone]

As for Gainey sitting on his hands, I would much rather that then him consistantly trading and changing the make up of the team.

That I do agree with. I do prefer Gainey not doing anything than making even more mistakes. I just wish our GM made some great positive decisions every once in a while...