Scott Hartnell

[Habitforming]

2.5M for a 3rd liner?

Im sorry but no thanks. Not when we lack firepower on the top 2 lines and reliable D-men.

Resources management, that's what its all about with the cap.

We never seem to agree on much Kozed, but this time we do.

$2.5 is far too much for Hartnell. Don't get me wrong I'd like to have him as a part of the CH but not at that price tag. Especially when we need to fill other voids as top priorities (#1 Centre and D help)

[saskhab]

Since when is a back-to-back 20 goal scorer at 25 years old on a 110 point team a 3rd liner?

[Chris]

Yea, he isn't worth that but players like kovalev, Samsonov, Koivu, bonk and Johnson are worth that and more. I would take him in a minute, not just scoring but he is younger, bigger and tougher then most of the Habs players. Even if he is on the 3rd line this team needs balance, grit and players who try every night. Hartnall does that.

[Trizzak]

What makes you think he is a Habs fan? Reading his bio, he says the person he would most like to meet is George Bush. Loves Nashville for the C&W music and southern hospitality. Not the sort who would be dying to relocate to Montreal by the sound of it..

Could just be Nashville PR...

[Habitforming]

Since when is a back-to-back 20 goal scorer at 25 years old on a 110 point team a 3rd liner?

He is a third liner when you have J.P Dumont, Steve Sullivan and maybe Radulov ahead of him on the RW. And for argument sake, Kariya and Erat ahead of him on the LW, with Arnott, Forsberg, Legwand at centre.

no matter how you look at it he is a third liner (at best in some scenarios).

It isn't like he is a big offensive guy or anything, he has never topped 48 points on an explosive offensive club. He is just a good two way player.

[JoeLassister]

I just don't think we need Hartnell as much as a 1rst line Center or a good 2nd pairing D. Let's spend for a guy who can put up 80 pts right now !

[saskhab]

He is a third liner when you have J.P Dumont, Steve Sullivan and maybe Radulov ahead of him on the RW. And for argument sake, Kariya and Erat ahead of him on the LW, with Arnott, Forsberg, Legwand at centre.

no matter how you look at it he is a third liner (at best in some scenarios).

It isn't like he is a big offensive guy or anything, he has never topped 48 points on an explosive offensive club. He is just a good two way player.

Just because he has a good team doesn't make him a "third-liner". Buffalo's 4th line center right now is Tim Connolly. I'm pretty sure if we had Tim Connolly he'd be either our first or second line center.

And I'm pretty sure Hartnell was on Arnott's wing for most of the year, for whatever that's worth. Radulov was a 4th liner for most of the year as well, and only got brought up from the minors because of injuries. You're taking a very small sample size.

I'm not arguing he's an offensive superstar. But i'm saying he's a lot more proven than a lot of guys on our team, and I'd definitely see him as a key forward for us, used in every situation (top 9 forward ES, PP & PK time). That's not a 3rd liner to me. I'd definitely give him ice time equivelant that would be in the top 5 overall amongst our forwards.

[tokyohabs]

2.5 for a 3rd liner is too much, of course, if he ends up playing on the third line.

I'll take it if he is a second or even first line player, which is what I was thinking of - a second- or sometimes first-line centre.

So in otherwords, I, uh, agree with everyone...

[Habitforming]

And I'm pretty sure Hartnell was on Arnott's wing for most of the year, for whatever that's worth. Radulov was a 4th liner for most of the year as well, and only got brought up from the minors because of injuries. You're taking a very small sample size.

That's my point exactly. He's not just a third liner on nashville, that is his role in the NHL.

He played on an offensive line (likely for his D contribution) and still didn't have a 2nd or 1st line player numbers.

Radulov got the call because Hartnell is not 2nd line (or first for that matter) material. This isn't a shot at Scott, just the way things are.

He would have even less goals on the Habs because we aren't as offensive as the powerful Preds. Then we all know everyone would be calling for his head.

Edited April 27, 2007 by Habitforming

[saskhab]

45 goals in 2 years isn't exactly 3rd line material... I still don't understand what you're getting at. He had 20 this year despite playing in what... 65 games? He could've hit 26 easily if healthy.

[Chris]

Well i think it has to do with some posters and fans thinking the current Habs players are the best players in the league no matter what the numbers say. For instance if this current roster was let's say the Blues, would people around the league or hockey fans be saying, WOW, look out for the Blues, they have a great roster. No they wouldn't, which is why the Habs were rated outside the playoffs by the experts and me. Mainly because there is nothing on this roster that stands out. The young players are good now and will only get better. The vets have never done anything and never will.

I would take Hartnell in a second. I don't care where he plays either. He is close to Kovalev's production and for 2.5 or whatever he certainly brings more to the table then alot of current Habs. #1 is he hustles.

So all this is irrelavant unless he signs.

[alexstream]

well, if we put him on 1st-2nd line... we put how standards pretty low as far as scoring is concerned.... we're not the frikkin Rangers with Jagr and Nylander on the same line so that we can put a tough guy on the other wing...

we're the habs and we need S C O R I N G.

Hartnell is a richman's version of Mike Johnson... He never generates offense, he collects pts when working with talented players because of his hard work...

When Kariya shoots or make a pass towards the net, Hartnell is standing there, distributing bruises...

Now if you want a Hartnell, but for a 1st or 2nd line... you should be looking at RYAN frikkin SMYTH!

Now we're talking about a HEART and SOUL player who has TALENT!

[Chris]

Yea, good point, if he gets his points from others hard work (including himself) he wouldn't get any points on the Habs. I'm not sure they are familiar with the "go to the net phrase". Unless it's getting the puck out of there own end.

Smyth will cost too much. The Habs can only afford a poor mans anyone. They are in too deep with kovalev, Samsonov, and having to resign Markov.

All the RFA have earned raises.

Ryder who knows about. 30 goals may fetch him 4 mill.

[KoZed]

Would you rather have Hartnell - a mid-to-late 20's grinder with limited offensive upside - playing on the wings of top 2 lines? Or would you rather have Higgins, Lats, Kosty & Ryder? Because you've only got 4 spots on the wings of the top 4 lines. And I haven't even factored in Kovalev.

You're left with 3rd and 4th line spots. Do you pay 2.5 for a 3rd liner when you've got Grabovski. Perezhogin, Begin, Lapierre, D'Agostini, Chipchura in the system?

We're most likely going to let go of Bonk and Johnson because we're paying them too much for their checking role. Why turn around and hire Hartnell at the same price for the same job?

Makes no sense. Unless you drastically cut down hefty salaries and plan to use Hartnell a whole lot.

Dont get me wrong, I'd love Hartnell... but not at 2.5.

[Chris]

Well i would get a player like Hartnell for the third line. Torres, Primuea maybe. I said it on another post but you need grinders and physical players on your third and 4th lines. Montreal is way to soft, players like grabovski, perez are either going to be top liners or AHlers.

There is a pattern to teams who make the playoffs and succeed. Notice anything about the teams that are left, they are tough, have size and good grinding, physical players.

Torres Chipchura Johnson

Begin Lapierre Goon / Milroy is fine with me for 3rd and 4th liners.

The top liners have to be your top liners.

i am also fine with Higgins Lats, Kosy Kovalev Ryder as top wingers.

[tokyohabs]

This is becoming a bit strange.

One camp says pay the kid, try and sign him because potentially (the key word here) he could be a better player than he already is and real leader on the team.

The other camp says forget paying him, becasue he'll be the same as a Johnson/Bonk type player, who are overpaid thus Hartnell would be too.

Obviously the Habs would not sign him at 2.5 - or whatever hypothetical figure - so he can play 3rd line checking minutes. And obviously no-one can seriously expect the second coming of Guy Lafleur here.

His numbers - be they inflated by linemates or not - will probably dictate a higher salary. I guess it comes down to something like this: the 'established' scorers in the league will cost a hell of a lot more than 2.5 mil a year. At some point you have to speculate on the future. The real question is do we speculate on a guy like Hartnell, or someone else?

[JoeLassister]

This is becoming a bit strange.

One camp says pay the kid, try and sign him because potentially (the key word here) he could be a better player than he already is and real leader on the team.

The other camp says forget paying him, becasue he'll be the same as a Johnson/Bonk type player, who are overpaid thus Hartnell would be too.

Obviously the Habs would not sign him at 2.5 - or whatever hypothetical figure - so he can play 3rd line checking minutes. And obviously no-one can seriously expect the second coming of Guy Lafleur here.

His numbers - be they inflated by linemates or not - will probably dictate a higher salary. I guess it comes down to something like this: the 'established' scorers in the league will cost a hell of a lot more than 2.5 mil a year. At some point you have to speculate on the future. The real question is do we speculate on a guy like Hartnell, or someone else?

Someone else big time !!!! Tired of these 2nd-3rd line guys. I want a real superstar here in Montréal !!! Give me a center better than Koivu !!!

[KoZed]

His numbers - be they inflated by linemates or not - will probably dictate a higher salary.

If his numbers - which are quite modest, to be honest - are inflated by linemates; then he certainly isn't worth 2.5 on his own.

Plex the sophomore had roughly the same stats playing half the season with a rookie and another sophomore. Would you pay Plex 2.5 right now?

Someone else big time !!!! Tired of these 2nd-3rd line guys. I want a real superstar here in Montréal !!! Give me a center better than Koivu !!!

There's basically only Briere that would fit that description as a UFA. Unless you trade for someone (more Lecavalier rumors, anyone?)

IMHO we'd need to add a puck-moving D more than we'd need a 1st C.

[saskhab]

I've never advocated Hartnell as Priority #1. But he'd be a good fit with this club. We need his type of player and his age fits right in with our core. He'd be a part of the plan, not the solution itself.

I seriously expect a setup trade. Whether it lands us a puckmoving d-man or a top 2 centreman... something that draws attention to Montreal as a team ready to make a move. I also expect us to dump a couple of contracts before the UFA season begins, of course at the very least Samsonov.

Is Latendresse ready for a full time 2nd line gig? I don't think he can play those kind of minutes.

And like I said, you guys aren't thinking value here. If Hartnell is 5th or higher in minutes played by forwards on the team, used in every situation, is that not worth it? If he plays a lot of even strength, 2nd unit PP, and on one of the PK units, is that not more than what will be expected out of Latendresse, Kostitsyn, Perezhogin, Grabovski, Lapierre, and any guys not on the NHL team in the next 2-3 years? Really, I'd only expect similar to greater roles out of Koivu, Plekanec, Higgins, and maybe Ryder or Kovalev in our current core. Sorry, but in my books, that'd make him a #3-6 forward on our team... a top 6 guy.

[JoeLassister]

There's basically only Briere that would fit that description as a UFA. Unless you trade for someone (more Lecavalier rumors, anyone?)

IMHO we'd need to add a puck-moving D more than we'd need a 1st C.

Right on about Brière man. Danis and Perez could be good assets for a puck-moving D.

[KoZed]

Is Latendresse ready for a full time 2nd line gig? I don't think he can play those kind of minutes.

Lats, on his rookie season while playing very few minutes per game, had about only 10 less pts than Hartnell... so I guess we'd be better off investing the ice time in Lats than Hartnell since the former has such a higher offensive upside.

[JoeLassister]

Lats, on his rookie season while playing very few minutes per game, had about only 10 less pts than Hartnell... so I guess we'd be better off investing the ice time in Lats than Hartnell since the former has such a higher offensive upside.

amen

[saskhab]

Lats was also wildly inconsistent. That's not really a fault, it's something he'll have to learn. Players of his sort take 4-5 years usually to really piece it together. Right now, Hartnell is a much better player than Latendresse.

Here's another thought: Hartnell would help make Latendresse more effective. Having two big wingers who do more than just provide energy will make life easier for Latendresse, and help wear down opposing d-men.

[KoZed]

Lats was also wildly inconsistent. That's not really a fault, it's something he'll have to learn. Players of his sort take 4-5 years usually to really piece it together. Right now, Hartnell is a much better player than Latendresse.

Here's another thought: Hartnell would help make Latendresse more effective. Having two big wingers who do more than just provide energy will make life easier for Latendresse, and help wear down opposing d-men.

I'll debate the inconsistent comment. Many nights during the slump Lats was the only player that seemed to try. Aside from the normal wall he hit just before his healthy scratch, Lats was usually as consistent as you'd expect a 19-yrs old rookie playing 8 mins on the 4th line.

I won't debate that Hartnell is a better player right now than Lats. Its a given. Like I said, I'd love Hartnell. But not at 2.5M$ and not in an offensive role on one of the top 2 lines.

Invest that ice-time in our young players, give them the experience. I'm sure Lats could easily match offensive production Hartnell could give. If not next season than the following.