Prospect camp

[Psycing]

Im just wondering about how much the new rules are going to affect the young goalies comming up. Many of them are going to have to adjust a bit in my mind, so Price will need some tutoring in that aspect, at least.

Anyways, what was this thread about again?

[BTH]

Kolzig had a Vezina Trophy in 2000. He had a strong season or two and has been pretty crap ever since. He did have good defence and was on a top team at that time (not because of him, BTW...Witt, Gonchar, Bondra, Oates, Konowalchuk, Zednik, Bulis, Klee, Johansson ... and later Jagr).

Price should not be left alone but should be trained by Rollie the Goalie not by Ollie the Goalie (or both). By the way, those were their real nicknames. We have a strong goalie and we can't mess this up.

[Edited on 2005/9/4 by Bulis_the_Habbie]

[nam]

Originally posted by beckham

Price is the same type of goaltender as Kolzig. Melanson was a shorty like Theodore, but not as good. I think that Price would benefit much more from Kolzig's coaching, to whatever extent he might need it. Leave the kid alone as much as possible. I don't buy this "Melanson/Allaire/? 'made' anyone into a good goaltender". If Theodore or Roy has to play for Nashville like Tomas Vokoun, they wouldn't have had numbers that were any better. As it is, Vokoun's career average is pretty close. Melanson and Allaire coached a lot of other first rounders like Mathieu Chouinard, Patrick DesRochers, Marc Denis, Mathieu Biron, Pascal Leclaire, etc. who have really done nothing.

Not all first rounders are able to live up to their potential, and it doesn't have to do with the coaching. Look at Montreal, Eric Chouinard was drafted the same year as Ribeiro, Chouinard never lived up to expectations. Ribeiro had the same coaching in the AHL and he turned out fine so are you saying if Chouinard would have went to I dunno, Tampa Bay he would have turned out like Vinny??? And Denis and Biron have done very well, they are both starting goalies in the NHL and anyways Denis was picked late first round which isn't the number of an expected elite player and Biron was taken 139th so I'd think the expectations on him weren't for a superstar goalie.

[KoZed]

Originally posted by Howie_Morenz

WoW, you guys keep beckham on his toes. He does make some good points but there are contradictions I will never agree with. Olaf has never done anything! PERIOD. He had one good year and that is it. His low GAA over his career is due to good "Defense" in Washington as they had lots of clutch and grabbers that slowed the opposition down. His playoff stats are OK nothing special and no games are memorable.

So? A goalie's success as a player doesnt necessarily translate in success as a coach. Its two different jobs. You can be the best goalie in the world, but completely suck at passing on your knowledge and be a terrible coach.

He is correct that coaching can ruin players and I have had that in the back of my mond with Montreal's farm system in the past.

Of course coaching can ruin players. It can also improve them, or have no effect at all. There's basically no way of knowing for sure. Too many things factor in.

I will not throw everything beckham says out the window as he does bring up good points for us to argue about.

A point is only as valid as its premises and the arguements that supports it. Sadly it appears to be a trend in beckham's case to have biased premises supported by fallacious arguements, so I dont see how the points he brings could be qualified as "good".

[KoZed]

Originally posted by Macaskill

Im just wondering about how much the new rules are going to affect the young goalies comming up. Many of them are going to have to adjust a bit in my mind, so Price will need some tutoring in that aspect, at least.

Anyways, what was this thread about again?

It was about the prospect camp... until someone (guess who) came and hijacked the thread to make it about how the Habs will screw up Carey Price.

[nam]

Originally posted by beckham

Carey Price's father was a goaltender. Carey was excellant in the midget ranks and was the highest goaltender taken in the WHL draft since Dan Blackburn. He went on to win the starting job in Tri Cities as a 16 year old over a 19 year old who was on the Candian U18 team and has since become the top goalie and MVP of the Central Pro League. Last season Carey was coached several times per week by Olaf Kolzig who is one of the top handful of goaltenders in the NHL at the moment and has had a long distinguished career. Price had an excellant season as a 17 year old in the WHL (where statistically the best NHL goaltenders originate), and led the league in playoff save %. Now you're going to have some coach come along and "teach him how to play the position"?:?-

That was how they screwed Komisarek's development. They had to pull him out of Michigan (where he had one of the top two or three coaches in the world in Red Berenson) two years early and send him to play for a second rate minor league hacks like Therrien and Julien.

Leave Price alone and they will be much better off. He is a smart kid and a terrific natural athlete. I'm sure that he can call Kolzig at any time and that his father will be watching his progress.

Where do you get this stuff? Julien is now the coach of the habs and one of the reason Ryder and Ribeiro are playing so well, how could he hinder a young players development? How is he a minor league hack, he is now an NHL coach, they much have seen something he did right in the minors to bring him to the NHL.

[nam]

Originally posted by beckham

Time to drop the myth about F.C. goaltenders. The rest of the world has. Fleury has been a choker and is on his way to being a dud. Pitt brought in Jocelyn Thibault which gives you some indication what they think of Fleury. Deslauriers and Daigneault sucked in the AHL compared to Lehtonen and Cam Ward, last season. Leclaire couldn't carry Dan Blackburn's equipment if Blackburn was still healthy. Leclaire is even more psychologcally fragile than Fleury and Deslauriers. Maxime Ouellet tanked last season in the AHL and is unlikely to become an NHL goaltender. Mathieu Chouinard was a fat stupid joke who is probably in the Quebec Senior League by now. The best goaltender propects in the AHL were Cam Ward, Kari Lehtonen, Hannu Toivonen, Ryan Miller, etc. Even Andy Chiodo who took over when Fleury choked up in the playoffs again for Wilkes-Barre, is a better prospect, I think.

[Edited on 2005/9/2 by beckham]

Wow...I don't even have enough time to tear this apart. If this is what you think then you should probably keep it to yourself.

[Howie_Morenz]

ap79, you really did not say anything but beat around the bush. So much for your Point, Premises, arguement theory. Although I do agree with the thought about backing up a point.

Instead of being in rage with members of the Canadien society here, sometimes you have to read between the lines to catch their meaning.

I made the point that Montreal's coaching has really not been good because I question it. This is basically what beckham mentioned with goaltending coaches. Montreal has become a weak franchise because of coaching, drafting and horrendous trades. You said coaching could be good, bad or sideways. HUH and DUH! Do you think some of us are stupid? What is your opinion on Montreal and the farm teams coaching, up to the task?

As far as bringing a point forward, are we supposed to clear this through you before posting? That would make life rather dull here . Glad to see we can argue and be friends as our hockey team is what binds us!

:ghg:

[bombTHEice]

*lol* Now all Suomi goalies are fluke, why that? Prove it ...

I don't care if some HF hockey expert made such an article, simply prove it why WHL goalies are THAT better - we're listening.

There are good goalies from every part of the world not only from the great WHL. :guru:

[shortcat1]

So, back on topic....

The prospect camp is beginning tomorrow. I wonder if we'll be able to get some sort of running analysis of the developments.

A couple of years ago, if I remember correctly, Dan Linn (I think) was able to give us a daily tally on the players, especially those who stood out (for better or worse).

For us who are 'junkies' for our Canadiens, it'll be great to have our fix.

:ghg::ghg::ghg:

[Komisarek the Cruncher]

Originally posted by beckham

Wow...I don't even have enough time to tear this apart. If this is what you think then you should probably keep it to yourself.

Someone made the point that Melanson and Allaire are great goaltending coachs and offered as proof that there were so many good young F.C. netmnders around. But really, F.C. goalies have been severely overrated for the past 5 years at least. Probably longer. Next it will be the turn of Finnish goaltenders. The fact is that the best goalies seem to come out of Western Canada. Some guy over at H.F. did an extensive anyalyisis, and it was pretty overwhelming.

LOL, name me one good goalie in the NHL that is from Western Canada???? None are in the top 10, so stop posting stupid comments!!!!

By the way, Canada's teams (pros and juniors) almost always as a Quebec goaler....so much for your great facts about Western goalies!!!! Who were the 3 goaltenders at the last Olympics ??? Brodeur, Théodore & Luongo...thank you very much!!!!

[beckham]

Most of any single town ever. Last year's WJC goalies were both from the WHL if I recall. Neither was highly drafted, either. This year's goalies will probably both be from the WHL as well, unless the P.C. police have their way. There has only been one clear #1 netminder from Finland in the entire history of the NHL. Pasi Nurmanin, and now he is gone as well. There have been more starting NHL goaltenders (or better ones) from dozens of countries. Finland is just about dead last in producing NHL goaltenders.

[KoZed]

Originally posted by beckham

Wow...I don't even have enough time to tear this apart. If this is what you think then you should probably keep it to yourself.

Someone made the point that Melanson and Allaire are great goaltending coachs and offered as proof that there were so many good young F.C. netmnders around.

NOBODY made that claim. Go back and re-read the thread.

But really, F.C. goalies have been severely overrated for the past 5 years at least. Probably longer. Next it will be the turn of Finnish goaltenders. The fact is that the best goalies seem to come out of Western Canada. Some guy over at H.F. did an extensive anyalyisis, and it was pretty overwhelming.

How about you show us that "anyalyisis", I'd be curious to see how "Western Canada" goalies can be considered the best over Quebec's or Finland's.

But then again, I'm dont think CHL stats or AHL achievements have any relevance, if that's all you'll have to show us. Because that's about the only possible way someone can argue such a point. I mean: there's hardly any Western Canada goalies in the NHL to begin with! And practically none of them are starters. The only starting goalies in the NHL that hails from Western Canada are 40 yrs old Belfour (didnt play in the WHL) and 35 yrs old Kolzig. Only one "western canada" goalie ever won a Vezina in the past 10 years and its Kolzig. On the other hand, you got Theodore who won a Vezina & Hart, Brodeur who won 2 Vezinas, a Olympic Gold medal as the starter, Giguère who won a Conn Smythe, Luongo who won Gold at the WC.

A third of the starting (ie. #1 goalies) in the NHL are "F.C.'s". Being in the NHL, and being in an NHL starting job is already an achievement. You can't argue that Western Canada produces better goalies when they hardly even have any goalies in the NHL compared to FC or Finland. Heck, Western Canada dont even seem to produce better goalies than Ontario.

[KoZed]

Originally posted by beckham

Most of any single town ever.

26 NHL goaltenders born in Brandon?! You mean since the invention of hockey, right?!

Last year's WJC goalies were both from the WHL if I recall. Neither was highly drafted, either. .

Do you want to put the 2 WHL goalies of last season against all the other seasons before?

This year's goalies will probably both be from the WHL as well, unless the P.C. police have their way. .

So the P.C. police would be the only reason why a Quebec goalie would make it on the WJC Canada Team? So if, say, Pier-Olivier Pelletier -- who played almost as good as Carey Price in the last U-18 -- makes the team it'll be the P.C.'s police fault? But if the two goalies are from the WHL, it won't be because the coach is from the West, right?

Suuuuure.

There has only been one clear #1 netminder from Finland in the entire history of the NHL. Pasi Nurmanin, and now he is gone as well. .

I'm guessing you tried to refer to Nurminen.

You forgot Mikka Kiprussoff. Clear-cut #1 goalie from Finland who carried Calgary to the 7th game of the Stanley Cup finals.

[Edited on 4-9-2005 by ap79]

[Howie_Morenz]

"26 NHL goaltenders born in Brandon?! You mean since the invention of hockey, right?!"

Hahahahahahaha good one ap79! I think beckham should provide a list, or not. :clap:

Back on the subject of this thread, is it for sure that Ron Hainsey and Mike Komisarek will be with the big club? I think both will be with the bulldogs at least one more year. Plus how many defenseman does Hamilton have signed for this year. 3? Yikes I am out of touch with the farm team......

[KoZed]

Originally posted by Howie_Morenz

"26 NHL goaltenders born in Brandon?! You mean since the invention of hockey, right?!"

Hahahahahahaha good one ap79! I think beckham should provide a list, or not. :clap:

Back on the subject of this thread, is it for sure that Ron Hainsey and Mike Komisarek will be with the big club? I think both will be with the bulldogs at least one more year. Plus how many defenseman does Hamilton have signed for this year. 3? Yikes I am out of touch with the farm team......

I think Komisarek earned his spot in the playoffs last year vs Boston & TB. He's the reason the Habs let Quintal go.

The D-men depth chart looks like this right now:

S. Souray

A. Markov

M. Dandenault

C. Rivet

M. Komisarek

F. Bouillon

----------------

M. Streit

R. Hainsey

A. Archer

J. Cote

J. Aitken

K. Korneev

R. O'Byrne

A. Yemelin

O. Korpikari

Add Benoit & Lemieux to that list, and the Habs have enough depth.

[The Saint]

I will leave the idiocy alone. And hope some of you other rational & intelligent posters will do the same.

Komisarek is a definite to stay with the big club. Hainsey is quickly running out of time, maybe only in the minds of nutbars like us, but i am tired of hearing about him and seeing little in return.

My fav's to shine coming out of the prospect camp based on not much more than feeling are:

Latendresse - 'Cause he was p o'd that he went as late (haha) as he did

Price - Will look to prove the management right

Mikus - sounds naturally gifted

Chipchura - work ethic always shines

[Habitforming]

Does anyone know if Latendresse will get an invite to the big camp this year?

I keep hearing that he is heading back to junior for the upcomming season but he could be utilized nicely to push other "prospects" to bring thier A game to the big clubs camp. Physically he is ready [skating needs help yes].

[PB]

THE SAINT, I agree with the good intention behind your suggestion to leave alone the idioty yet at the same time I desagree that someone like BECKHAM that comes here to denigrate someone or someone's work with no other rationnal than his French bashing motivation should be left unattended.

His posts make for the most tedious reading; a fragile construction of distorted facts to protect his own distorted agenda.

So I congratulete ap79 for keeping up with this farce and specially for pointing out how Beckham has twisted around the content of one of my earliest post which in itself should reveal all there is to know about him.

[KoZed]

Originally posted by Habitforming

Does anyone know if Latendresse will get an invite to the big camp this year?

I keep hearing that he is heading back to junior for the upcomming season but he could be utilized nicely to push other "prospects" to bring thier A game to the big clubs camp. Physically he is ready [skating needs help yes].

Montreal always had an habit of inviting top prospects to the training camp, so I dont see why it would be different this time around.

Unless Latendresse completely sucks in the rookie camp & tournament, he will be at the training camp. But with all the other prospects on the brink of the NHL, Habs would be better off letting him go back to Juniors, take a crack at the WJC national team and develop at his own pace.

[KoZed]

Originally posted by PB

THE SAINT, I agree with the good intention behind your suggestion to leave alone the idioty yet at the same time I desagree that someone like BECKHAM that comes here to denigrate someone or someone's work with no other rationnal than his French bashing motivation should be left unattended.

His posts make for the most tedious reading; a fragile construction of distorted facts to protect his own distorted agenda.

So I congratulete ap79 for keeping up with this farce and specially for pointing out how Beckham has twisted around the content of one of my earliest post which in itself should reveal all there is to know about him.

Thanks... but in the end its pretty much a waste of time pointing out the flaws in beckham's posts. Whenever you disprove some of hsi affirmations, he side-steps to a different subject with the same type of pseudo-arguements.

beckham : Habs should leave Price alone

someone : Well Habs have done good with Theodore and Price could use coaching

beckham : French Canadian goalies are overrated

someone : Well lot of the best goalies in the NHL comes from Quebec

beckham: 26 NHL goalies came from Brandon!

So, in conclusion, Habs should leave Price alone because 26 NHL goalies came from Brandon... or something like that.

:?-

Anyway... dont want to be mean or look like I'm picking on the poor guy, but I can't help feeling that beckham is arguing like some real bad lawyer. Funny to think Lionel Hutz is a hockey fan.

[shortcat1]

For those who can read French, RDS.ca has a few articles on the 1st day of the prospects camp.

http://www.rds.ca/canadien/

:ghg::ghg::ghg:

[KoZed]

Originally posted by shortcat1

For those who can read French, RDS.ca has a few articles on the 1st day of the prospects camp.

http://www.rds.ca/canadien/

:ghg::ghg::ghg:

Looks pretty good. They got that pic of Chipchura saying he should be a player to watch. Add Latendresse, Mikus, Price, Halak and the cap should be good.

That's what I like about the Habs over the past 3 or 4 seasons. They drafted good players after good players. Maybe not lot of blue-chippers, but solid guys with good potential.

BTW, RDS also had an interview up with Carey Price where he talks about how he likes his new coach (Rollie) and how he picked up new tricks already.

http://www.rds.ca/canadien/chroniques/187193.html

[nam]

"BTW, RDS also had an interview up with Carey Price where he talks about how he likes his new coach (Rollie) and how he picked up new tricks already."

lol...I know someone who will have to say something about this, anyone guess who?

[BTH]

About Finnish goalies....

Kiprusoff and Nurminen are great goaltenders. Then there's Vesa Toskala and Kari Lehtonen who are future starters. Considering all of these 4 are young it wouldn't hurt to say that recently Finnish goalies have been producing results (to teams like Atlanta and San Jose).

Nice article about Price liking Melanson.

:/)