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Link, I honestly don't think anyone has trashed Weber on this thread. Maybe some minor stuff early on about his age out of frustration. But In fact I think what has been mostly said is that Weber will likely give us 3-4 years of elite or near elite play. But then he'll be 35 and noticeably declining (or at least this is reasonable prediction). Yes both sides are beating a dead horse. Yes this thread is circular. But I've seen so well worded, reasonable and supported arguments from posters like commandant, MOLG and Chicoutimi Cucumber that I have a hard time seeing how people disagree with the conclusions. I'm not saying everyone has to dislike the trade, but I am saying it seems like many supporting the trade are in blatant denial or ignoring facts at times. I'll reiterate, we have ALL agreed that Shea Weber is elite right now. We also seem to all concede that this trade COULD make the team better in the short term. But it seems that people in favour of the trade are unwilling to objectively look at the negative aspects of it, and if anything, I see FAR more Subban bashing than Weber bashing. There's so many backhand comments of Subban's character in the thread it's ridiculous. I feel you're right that people are biased when looking at this trade, and to an extent from both sides, but I think it's more biased in the opposite direction of what you think. Biased FOR Weber. Do you think Any Habs fan wants this to be a bad trade? Clearly no. But it's like some habs fans are afraid to admit we very very likely lost this trade.

So basically any stat that Weber is superior is one that you just so happen to not care about. The same stats and intangibles that the entire hockey world talk about and adore. I've never in my life heard a single hockey player say they need to improve their corsi or fear an opponent's possession metrics. We get it, you don't like the deal. But the fact is that the people whose opinion actually matters think that Weber is a better fit for this team. Bergevin, Therrien, Price, heck even the damn owner signed off on trading his marketing cash cow. There aren't enough analytics in the world to disprove what these people believe was the right move. To paraphrase the general discussion throughout this thread: Weber had more Norris votes last year - "only cause Subban was injured did he receive less votes, but the committee is a bunch of idiots anyway so it doesn't matter" Weber was an automatic selection for Team Canada while Subban was passed over for much less talented players - "yeah but Rob Zamuner got picked for Canada 18 years ago so they don't know shit" Weber hits like a truck and blocks shots fearlessly - "those stats are flawed, therefore they have no real value" Weber is one of the best leaders in hockey - "I don't see that on my spreadsheet anywhere, if it was real it would be there" Weber fits the structure of this team better - "blame the idiot coach for holding Subban back, it's all his fault " Weber is a better goal scorer and will help the powerplay - " It doesn't matter who scores the goals on a goal-deprived team, Subban's analytics are superior" Any point that is brought up to shed Weber in a positive light is immediately shot down. Liking or disliking a trade is one thing, but to be so completely biased that it affects a rational debate is another. At the first of this thread I was pissed off about the deal, and I still am upset that PK won't be around to watch. However, the more I learn about Weber and the trade, the more excited I am to get the season going.

I haven't seriously argued for the norris. I made one sarcastic post about it... in response to a poster who has been nothing but douchey, (and racist); and said something to the effect that the only awards subban wins are pre-season ones. You guys jumped on it, I made some responses, but throughout the history of this thread I've been very consistent about what I value (and if you look at my history of posts on a ton of players its always the same). giveaways, takeaways, turnovers, hits, blocked shots, plus/minus... all flawed stats... I don't care. the other advanced stats, corsi, fenwick, zone starts, qual comp, possession metrics, goal and assist generation, etc.... I don't take the NHL awards seriously, at least not ones vote by the PWHA caquse its clear that they don't... but I made that response to cause that guy was saying Subban only wins pre-season awards. As for the main issue... it still all comes down to the fact that Subban's numbers are are far superior to webers over the last four years. And that the eye test confirms why. Weber is still very good, but he's lost half a step and it takes him out of the discussion of super elite defenders. As for the rest of your post.... I'm not even gonna bother responding to that bullshit.... you can call me stubborn or anything else you want, just cause i refuse to address things like +/- or giveaway stats (and I have addressed them, I've shown that they are horrible stats). sorry just cause i won't drink the koolaid that tells us this was a fair trade doesn't mean you should attack me as "bashing" weber, or being hypocritical in my position. I've always maintained that Weber is a very good player, one who was elite four years ago, but today is not as good as Subban. Not sure why that is called bashing.