The Chicoutimi Cucumber

Yeah, scanning through past draft results, there is a lot of variation, but on balance it seems that only the top 2-3 picks can be relied upon to yield heavy-duty impact players. In other words, I'm not so sure that a #5 pick is all that much greater than a #10 pick in this regard. (Of course it's not as though I've crunched these numbers so I stand to be corrected by statisticians; but consider that we took Price at #5 and LA took Kopitar at #11). In terms of probabilities, I suspect we need to draft no lower than 3rd overall to have a reliable shot at a franchise player. And even going to 3rd overall, the record from 2005 to 2010 is -Jack Johnson -Jonathan Towes -Kyle Turris -Zach Bogosian -Matt Duchene -Eric Gudbranson I see one clear cut 'franchise' player there (Towes). The rest aren't exactly garbage, but I dunno, I don't see myself hanging on the edge of my seat pulling for the Habs to lose so we can draft the equivalent of Turris or Bogosian. So I still think the odds are against us coming out of this with a franchise player. Sorry, guys.

I agree that we should be amassing picks. The usual list - Gill, Moen, Kosty (if he can't be signed), Campoli, etc. - should be shipped out for picks or prospects. Unload Gomez in the off-season and suddenly you've got mountains of cap space and a lot of future assets. As for 'hoping the Habs lose,' even if brobin is right and we're well-positioned to bag a top-3 pick, I think we can trust these jerks to lose enough games without our psychic encouragement. When I watch the team play, I want them to win. Period.

Too bad the odds are heavily against us getting him. Get real folks.

I can't sit there hoping the Habs lose. Goes against every fibre of my being. Besides, we have no guarantee of picking in (say) the top-3 at the end of the day anyhow. No one is going to catch Columbus in the basement, first of all. Secondly, the random lottery factor could work against just as well as for us. I haven't studied the upcoming draft pool, but unless there are half a dozen 'franchise' players waiting to be selected we cannot assume that we will be all set to bag a player of the calibre sufficient to change the future in a big way. Take the 2008 pool. http://www.nhl.com/ice/draftsearch.htm?year=2008&team=&position=&round= Of the top-10, only the first two have proven to be that kind of special player (Stamkos and Doughty). Sure, I'd take Bosogian or Schenn on my team, but I don't know if those guys are transformative players vastly better than you can find at, say, #15 in the draftng order. The Sabres got Myers at #12; the Rangers, DeZotto at #20. I doubt that those teams wish they had 'tanked' and finished, say, 3rd or 4th last that season. So basically, we have no chance of finishing last overall; the prospects for doing so rely purely on lottery luck. All you're wishing for is for the Habs to lose. Period.

It's not complicated with Kosty. You try to sign him. If he is not interested, or asking anything over, say, $4 mil, you trade him for whatever you can get and move on with your life.

Carbo for GM. Outside the box, sure, but he has administrative experience with Gainey in Dallas and has leadership credentials. I could live with that choice.

I think the Habs under Gainey were something approaching an exemplary organization in terms of how they ran their operation, if not always in terms of on-ice results. That's how we became a desirable UFA location and generally regarded as a strong franchise (the 'crown jewels,' to quote Ferraro a while back). Habs29 is absolutely right that we now look like a team in disarray at the highest level. It's not so much, to my mind, that the specific decisions have been so bad - it's not like Houle in that sense - but that the manner in which they've been made has seemed totally classless, scrambly, and mickey mouse. I notice that a lot of media types - including former players - don't seem to like Gauthier much on a personal level. Which'd be OK if he were brilliant, but brilliant he hasn't been. PG may be one of these 'bright' types whose mind impresses but who simply does not know how to manage people (akin to Stéphane Dion, a politician with lots of good ideas but who couldn't 'lead' a party to save his hide). Or else, Molson is the source of the problem and we have a new Harold Ballard at the top. This is even worse, because unlike Gauthier, ownership cannot be replaced. We'll know more by the end of the summer, I think. This whole season could be an aberration, with the weird behaviour caused by a team that unexpectedly hit the skids and drove the GM to extremes; a little good luck, some wins, and things stabilize. Or, the Goat could be fired and we start afresh. Or, Molson is the cause; and we are in for a long, long decade or two ahead: the new Toronto Maple Leafs. Interesting times.

Well, I suspect for Cammy it was -JM + -no Markov for the forseeable future -apparent confusion at the managerial level = get me the hell out of Dodge. But he seemed pretty clearly to sour here not just this season, but last season. There were a lot of comments then about how he didn't seem to be bringing the same enthusiasm. So maybe the combo of no Markov plus Martin were sufficient to curdle his milk.

Actually, zumpano's criteria describe Bob Gainey to a 'T.' He brought EXACTLY those qualities. Which just goes to show that there's no magic bullet. Montreal will not tolerate a rebuild. Cripes, we can't even tolerate an extended slump without firing coaches: no one has lasted more than 2 1/2 years in what, 15 years? Meanwhile, I still don't see PG as terrible, although he certainly has set the team back in terms of organizational culture by doing weird things like leaving Cunney out to dry, firing Pearn then Martin, trading Cammy during a game, etc.. Vancouver radio legend Don Taylor was on today defending the trade from Montreal's standpoint, but mocking the organization for acting like the Columbus Bluejackets. 'Are these the Montreal canadiens??' he asked, aghast. Which shows both how well regarded we've become and how badly that rep is being damaged by the chaos at the top. Nonetheless, his moves remain mostly sensible. The problem isn't that he's made huge mistakes, it's the lingering sense that he could have done better, But it might be worth sweeping clean just to kind of restore order and hit 'reset.' I don't trust Roy not to immolate in the job, but at least he'd bring immense presence and stature. But I still want to know why nobody mentions Carbo as a GM (not coach).

His role is to boost the dangerously low Alaskan content on that line.

I think it was Boone who yesterday floated an old rumour that Gainey had targeted Cammy as his top off-season priority but was told Cammy wouldn't sign if Koivu was our top-C. Hence the trade for Gomez. IF this is so then in some sense Cammy did come here because we signed Gomez. The other thing was reported as fact by Arpon Basu, which was that Cammy saw his game as being based on scoring off feeds on the PP. He signed here because he'd heard Markov was a 'stud' - Joe Thorton's word. One of the sad ironies in all this is that Cammy hardly played at all with Markov, as Commandant pointed out in the other thread. Commandant's post above is a good reminder of something everyone seems to forget, namely that the Gomez of last season was nothing like the Gomez of every previous year. Gomez Mach 1 was indeed an elite playmaker. Everyone has forgotten that of course and acts like Gainey consciously went out and got a 35-point C for Macdonagh and 7 mil per.

? Is this really the proposed line???

It shouldn't be taken as gospel that players' numbers are bound to decline up coming to Montreal. This was partly true under JM's system (although not for Cole). But Cunneyworth is NOT JM. It's reasonable to budget Bourque for 25+ goals.

Yep.

If Subban is moved we had BETTER get monster value back. GRRRRRRRR. As for Pleks, he's a fine player, but not an 'unotuchable' player. Getzlaf/Desharnais/Eller is a significant step up on Plekanec/Desharnais/Eller, so in principle I could live with that.

huzer, you make an interesting point. If other GMs claim to be totally floored at the Habs moving Cammy, then you can argue that THEY weren't doing their jobs. Montreal has been in melt-down mode for months and anyone interested in Cammalleri should at least have made meaningful inquiries. It was obvious something was going to happen eventually. I remember one time when a player many fans and media coveted - I forget who, it might have been Kyle MacLaren - was traded and they asked Houle why he hadn't made an offer. His response was that he hadn't even known the guy was available. Everyone took that as proof of Houle's incompetence. So the same argument could be directed to the GMs now (apparently) expressing surprise. 12 hours later my view hasn't changed: should have gotten more, but what we did get isn't terrible, and the direction of the trade is exactly that which fans have been calling for: get bigger, free up cap space, stockpile picks and good young assets. Hard to be too enthused but a deal that will require patience and a longer-term view to fully assess. EDIT: excellent, way-above-the-norm analysis from Bob McKenzie: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=384950 This should be required reading for any fans when it comes to this trade.

Well, I'm calming down a little. We get a 25+ goal-scorer (presumably) with size and a desirable viciousness, a 2nd-round pick in a deep draft, the 9th overall scorer in the WHL, AND $3 million to play with annually. Yeah, we could gotten more, but the latter three elements *are* arguably the sorts of ingredients that characterize a 'retool for the future' kind of deal. In principle, and on reflection, this turns out to be exactly the sort of trade that most fans on this site have clamoured for all season: 'save cap space, get bigger, get young assets, move under-performing duds.' A sour response is, I think, still appropriate. But patience is also called for here as the full implications will take a while to unfold. Meanwhile, more is to come in terms of dumping bloated contracts - I hope.

Uh...you know we fired JM, right?

We may never know. I'll cling to the hope that they are at least minimally competent. Cammy will be back with Iginla in a city he wanted to remain in in the first place. The odds are good his production will spike.

Interesting link, thanks. I think the outrage is in a lower register, centering NOT on the players per se but rather the 2nd rounder and the cap hit. Like I say, if both players maintain their levels of production from the past two seasons ya gotta admit we ARE the winners in the trade. Not that I think it's a great trade.

I absolutely, 100% agree with you here. You HAVE to at least feel Kostitsyn out, see what he's looking for. It's almost as if the Habs under Gainey and Gauthier have been too lazy to bother with these sorts of things. Make serious inquiries to Wiz? Naaaah, too much trouble. Talk to Kosty's agent? Oh, it's long distance. Shop Halak or Cammy around trying to create a bidding war? Bah, it's almost dinner time, just make the deal already. That being said, we cannot assume Kosty is particularly interested in locking in. Provided PG does due diligence I have no problem with dealing him if he can't be signed.

So he made those comments. It doesn't follow that we HAD to trade him then and there. That's the sort of blinkered thinking that has hampered this franchise for decades - starting with that idiot Ronald Corey forcing Serge Savard to trade Chelios because of his dubious off-ice antics. A good organization is ruthless in maximizing its assets. You're right to cite Burke, who makes mistakes but at least doesn't piddle away major assets for irrelevant reasons. I won't cry if PG goes, but here's a thought: we won't really know what this deal amounts to until he spends the $3 mil he just saved. Something else to chew over.

A valid point of view. All I'm saying is that anyone who has taken this position (often vehemently and angrily) has absolutely zero right to jump up and down with rage if the Habs now deal Kostitsyn, in exactly the same scenario. Chris, Pleks will get better, and I know this because he has BEEN better for three of the past four years - vastly so. You're confusing aberration for norm.

Yeah, the last four months represent the only thing he has ever done or ever will do in the NHL. Apparently.

For chrissakes, Pleks is a quality player in all three zones; because he's having a bad season you want to throw him away for a pick. And what happens when the player you picked has a bad season? You trade HIM for a pick? AK46 is what he is, as I've said consistently. Good physical presence, gets hot and looks steller, blows cold and looks like Turner Stevenson. Not a player to want to lose, but not one to go cowabunga over either, and unless he can definitely be signed to a reasonable rate, he should be traded. Once again: you CAN'T bitch about the Habs for not trading impending UFAs like Souray, then whine if they trade Kostitsyn.