The Chicoutimi Cucumber

Andre Savard was a good GM and I see no reason why he wouldn't do a good job. Note that he also has substantial coaching credentials and ought to be mentioned a lot more than he is as a possible Cunneyworth replacement. Guy Carbonneau was a questionable coach and hiring him would be a gambling that he learned a lot from his first go-around. Myself, I'm surprised nobody mentions Carbo for GM. I have the feeling he remains a good hockey mind, even if he wasn't a huge coaching success. I don't understand the Damphousse reference. What is the basis for claiming he possesses 'tremendous knowledge?' The guy has never run anything in his life as far as I can see. And we do NOT need a GM with 'personality.' We need a GM who can build a winner. Sounds to me like Willey is completely imprisoned by media images rather than substance.

There are two differnent situations when it comes to talking UFAs. First, there is Montreal before the Gainey years had settled in and the team had established itself as a competitive club and one of the most exciting cities to be in when things were going well. That's the team that had zero luck with higher-end UFAs, that Smyth reportedly rejected because he wanted to play on a 'winner.' All players could see was a dismal record and good players like Brisebois getting publicly humiliated night after night. Then there's the Montreal of about 2008 and after. That Montreal has had no problem attracting free agents. Players are heavily influenced, I believe, by their general (and not particularly expert) impression of an organization. They look at Montreal now, they see a team that's been well-run and always makes the playoffs. Obviously this season damages that image, but it's likely to be taken as an aberration provided signs of managerial disarray are kept to a minimum. Nevertheless, when you're competing in the UFA pool you do have to pay out, because you have to outbid all comers. In Montreal's case, we have to pay still more because of the tax situation. Somewhat arbitrarily I automatically deduct $500 000 from most contracts to compensate for the tax. The combination of signing UFAs + the tax factor means that most of our UFA contracts are going to have a whiff of overpayment about them. We have a number of contracts on the bloated side because of Gainey's decision to rebuild via the UFA market. Unlike some, I don't freak out about it. A lot of fans are cap obsessives. They appear to think cap space wins. They complain that Hammer was overpaid and blinding themselves to his invaluable contributions over four years, attack the Cole contract because it'll probably look bad in Year Four, as though that outweighs his obvious merits in the interim, freak out about paying a 50-point defenceman $4 mil, etc.. Of course a contract like Gomez's is indefensible, but the rest are within the bounds of reason in my books.

Well, I agree with most of this. I've complained myself about the way Gauthier seems to want to rebuild the 4th line every season, with the result that every season we have a running problem with our 4th line. It's ridiculous. On the broader question of locking guys up willy-nilly, I see the merits in your approach, but also the dangers. Looking back, I think the Habs may have been uncertain about just what they had in Gainey Rebuild 1.0. Was Komisarek really a premier shutdown D-man, or a 5th defenceman who looked great mainly because of Markov? Was Higgins a future 40-40 man, or an injury-prone 3rd-liner who could chip in offensively in spurts, his scoring prowess artificially inflated? Was Andrei Kostitsyn an elite talent or a bum who would never max out his talent? Was Sergei a strong second-liner or an erratic headcase? Was Latendresse a serious power forward in the making or a grinder? Was Streit a bona-fide 50-point defender (like Kaberle!) or a one-trick pony? Was Pleks a slick third-line centremen a la Carbo or a legitimate top-6 C? Was Lapierre an elite agitator or more trouble than he was worth? And so forth. These were quite hard questions. It comes back to what I said before, about the difference between players whose identities and future payoff are obvious (Towes, Keith, Richards, etc.) and less sure-fire prospects. Perhaps Gainey chose to be cautious about tying the team to these guys long-term for that reason. Similarly, Gauthier was reluctant to lock-up two defenceman who were recovering from very serious knee surgeries at the same time. He took a risk on Markov but not on Gorges. It hasn't worked out, but I can certainly understand the thinking. Where there are few question marks around what a player is and what he will bring in the future, then yes, lock him up at a discount if you can. The thing is, we've rarely been in this position, alas.

It's fun to speculate on a D-corps in 5 years with Subban as veteran NHL all-star in his prime, Bealieu as upstart emerging star, Tinrodi as bruising shut-down dude, Gorges as elder statesman, Emelin as seasoned stay-at-home stabilizer, and maybe Diaz as helpful #5 guy. Of course much will change in the interim. No question that a healthy Markov is three times the player Kaberle is. Nonetheless, in an ideal world I'd have both - just as I said of Wisniewski. Whether that's cap-possible, or whether Markov will ever again play and play at the level we expect, these are other matters. But without #79 we should keep Kaberle for sure.

Well, I have a running theory that there are major chemistry problems in the room (no real evidence, just a gut feeling from having seen it before). But I wouldn't have expected Pleks and Subban, blood-and-guts guys both, to be at the heart of it. I figured it was more Gorges/Gill vs. Cammy/Gomez, something like that. So I'm betting you're right Brobin, this is more a symptom of two guys angry at being on a losing team than deep personality conflicts. Time will tell, eh!

Good analysis, especially the second sentence. I can see a maturing Subban, Emelin, a veteran Gorges, Diaz, and eventually Tinordi grounding a pretty solid D over the next 4-5 years. (If Tinordi is to be a big element, we'd better give it about 4 years). Markov will likely be out of the picture by then so I'm not sure your equation works. Let's think two years from now: Subban - Emelin - Diaz - Gorges Looking at this, Kaberle could prove to be a significant ingredient, unless Weber somehow emerges as a major puck-moving defenceman: Subban - Kaberle - Gorges - Emelin - Diaz Much better. Even assuming Subban becomes all that he can be, while that looks to be a good defence corps, Markov is STILL a major absence. We'd need another higher-end defenceman to be Cup-worthy IMHO. But what I'm saying here is that Kaberle could prove to be an important asset fin keeping us competitive as Subban matures and Tinordi learns how to be a pro. I just don't understand fans' hurry to throw this 50-point defenceman under a bus.

Perhaps the question is whether we see a lot of players taking hometown discounts for teams that are NOT perceived as obvious Cup contenders. Maybe these proliferate and I just don't see it. I still have trouble understanding why a player who projects to be a 40-goal scorer would cheerfully accept being paid long-term like a 25-goal scorer, or why Price will be only too happy to be paid like Dan Ellis for his entire career. And the whole 'lock up your RFAs' theory risks blowing up in your face as much as it does rewarding you - e.g., if we had signed Higgins for 10 years on the assumption that he was gonna be a 35-goal scorer we'd have a cap problem that makes the supposedly onerous Kaberle deal look like a masterstroke. In any case, even if I'm wrong about all this, since the Habs have not had very many clear-cut elite prospects over the past decade, I'm still not sure the analogy with Chicago applies. The only clear-cut, can't-miss kids we've had are Subban and Price. Ribeiro, Plekanec, Hainsey, Komisarek, Higgins, Perezhogin - all came with significant question marks. All the same, I agree that we've bungled a fair portion of our assets. Perezhogin driven off by Carbo's bizarre determination to turn him into a checking winger. Grabovski thrown overboard because he was a drama queen. Streit, allowed to walk because management shared the erroneous view of most fans that this guy was not a legit NHL defender. Ribeiro jettisoned as a supposed locker-room cancer. Hainsey, abandoned as a no-good punk. Beauchemin, tossed aside as a never-will-be. Latendresse, collateral damage to the rebuild of 2009, Lapierre, upset because of his relegation to the 4th line. Sergei, sacrificed so JM could make a point about team culture and his authority. Etc. Etc. I just think that's a more appropriate thing to gripe about than the debatable notion that we could lock up excellent players at major discounts.

Personally I think getting all worked up about how player X could hypothetically be acquired (based purely on speculation) is a waste of time at best, and a recipe for endless fuming and frustration at worst. (That way, if the Habs acquire a less spectacularly impressive prospect, Habs29 can bitch about bad asset management because HE would surely have gotten Schenn, etc.). What I share with Habs29 is the desire to see is the Habs dealing veterans and perhaps Weber to build a team that can seriously compete next season and contend the season after that. Going cowabunga over hypothetical particulars? No thanks. Habs29, I still think you exaggerate the Habs' mismanagement of their RFAs. The fact is that when we have had players of the calibre you list, we have locked them up: Markov and Pleks. If our pattern holds we should expect Price and Subban to similarly be locked up at fair value. Most of the RFAs we've lost as UFAs have been second- and third-tier types, many of which had significant attitude and maturity issues; quite a different story. Beyond that, other than Mike Richards I don't see too many massive, clear-cut hometown discounts on your list. And Richards probably believed he was signing on to an elite, contending NHL power, not a solid upper-middle tier organization like the Habs have been since 2008. Indeed, I think really unambiguous hometown discounts are uncommon. Vancouver got the twins on a deal but that's partly because they come as a set: an exceptional case. They bagged Luongo on a pay cut - a contract now widely reviled nonetheless - because of a term that would now probably be vetoed by the league office. Kesler at $5 mil is unquestionably a steal, but again, it's a case of a guy with Cup fever on a powerhouse. And once again, these are elite players, not Chris Higgins or Ryan White. Our issue, it seems to me, has consisted in prematurely trading away guys like Ribeiro, Grabovski and Sergei Kostitsyn, rather than mismanaging their contracts per se. Streit is the exception of course.

I agree. But I don't actually think we were a soft team over the past two seasons, especially not in the playoffs. That's really my point - I get antsy when I detect people taking the past three months as defining the players on this team for all time. Wasn't referring to you in particular.

I can see moving Gionta, but I'm not sure that we have a ton of awesome RW in the wings ready to replace what he brings. It seems to me that if we move him it'll signify either that there is serious quality on the UFA market or else that we are moving toward a total rebuild rather than a tactical tweaking. Truth be told, I'm a bit annoyed that fans seem to have completely forgotten what a fine leader and valuable player Gionta has been in the previous two years. Three injury-addled months and suddenly he's washed up...

Habs29, I don't know why you're in a hurry to get rid of Gionta particularly, and I still rate your hate-on for Kaberle - who is signed for 4.2, BTW, not 4.5 - as pretty exaggerated. Moen is also a pretty good blood-and-guts guy, who I'd only move because his value is probably inflated at the moment. The other thing is this grumbling about our unwillingness to lock up our prospects. I agree that IF you can lock up great prospects at a discount, then of course you do it. But I doubt that most players are dumb enough to lock up at a significant discount, and off the top of my head I don't see a whole lot of great prospects that we allowed to walk, other than Streit. Higgins, Komisarek - did we really want those guys locked up at $4-5 mil each for ten years? (This is a separate issue from trading away prospects, which Gainey did to excess). That Gorges was locked up suggests PG will now try to lock up Kosty. The main message I take from this is that the Canadiens ARE happy to negotiate during a season; if Kostitsyn is dealt away, it seems fair to infer that that will be because his demands are unreasonable from the Habs's point of view. This is reassuring at least.

You're spot on, but note that three of the five have been decimated with injuries this season. I think we forget just how much injuries have hurt this team.

Finally a bit of good news. This is not a bargain, though. I can't believe he'd have gotten much more than that on the open market. Nonetheless, he logs tough minutes and is effective in doing so and has only gotten consistently better year after year. And he wants to play here and is pals with Price. Great to LOCK UP long-term a blood-and-guts guy who bleeds Habs red. And it also conveys that Gorges has a certain faith in the organization, which is good news too.

Remember when Ottawa acquired Heatly? All the fans were in ecstasies because they finally had that 'Canadian' star who was gonna lead them to glory after all those years of soft Euro-trash. How'd that work out?

No kidding. Don't move a lottery pick for anything. And yeah, I guess Peter Forsberg was a second-rater because he's not 'Canadian'

We won't get Getslaf, but - why does the big centre have to be Canadian? Who cares?

I didn't see this game, but predicted a dog, and it seems I was right. The players aren't stupid - they knew that loss to TB pretty much put paid to any playoff hopes this season. They just don't have the collective self-belief to respond to that crushing blow with the energy of desperation; listlessness was the predictable outcome. Kamal, in response to your query, if I am PG I begin the process of selling now. Let the auction ratchet itself up for the next few weeks, then pull the trigger on -Kosty IF he can't be signed (but try to sign him) -Gorges IF he can't be signed (but try, try, try to sign him) -Gill -Moen, only because his value is at a maximum and only if I get good quality back, otherwise he's the type of blood-and-guts dude we need -Campoli -Weber, who appears to be the odd man out on D -Cammy IF I can get a big cog back (or if he wants out) Gomez won't be moveable until healthy, if at all. In fact one of the most important variables for the rest of this season is Gomez returning healthy and playing well. That will make a trade possible. Gionta I'd prefer to keep since his value is low now and he is a character player. If we can get some decent picks and a solid prospect or two back, plus perhaps a bigger piece with Cammyinvolved, then you retain most of the current core, retool with UFAs and move forward, armed with an enriched pool of picks and young talent. Really disappointing season, though. It ranks behind only 2009 in my recent memory of deep Habs let-downs. EDIT: BCHabnut, I defended Martin all along...but I still wouldn't infer from their struggles under RC that this team is 'bad' in terms of lacking talent or the capacity for character. Again: the same bunch went to the Semis and then got 96 points last season. I think it's more that a lethal combination of injuries PLUS core guys quitting on JM; this has led to weeks of futility and a team with zero chemistry and even less collective self-confidence. Frankly, I don't blame Martin, I blame the players who quit on Martin rather than rally together to overcome all the adversity. They poisoned the well for this season.

This seems fair. This is the defining test of Gauthier's leadership. If he takes a deep breath and faces reality, he will concede that we have no chance of making the playoffs and coolly sell off carefully-selected assets, such as Gill, perhaps Cammalleri, the seemingly-redundant Weber, Campoli, Gomer Pyle if at all possible (whether at the deadline or, most likely, later); and of course Kosty and Gorges should it look as though they can't be signed. Conversely, if Harold Ballard is breathing down his neck and threatening his job, he will desperately trade youth/picks for immediate help and thereby further deepen the hole this franchise is in. We'll know by February whether we have an organization we can believe in or one condemned to another decade of mediocrity. I admire your Zen attitude. For my part, I've found this season a great disappointment because I know the team is better than this. And I'm having trouble feeling motivated as a fan. It's one thing to know your team sucks going in, in which case your focus shifts from wins to other things (watching young player X's development, focusing on various little storylines, watching the opposition, etc.). But when you expected your team to be competitive and it's not, when good players keep finding ways to lose, it's tough to care. Only force of habit - the fact that I'm accustomed to allocating a certain amount of time daily to this site and other Habs-related stuff - is keeping me around at this point. I wonder what other folks are feeling in this respect - ? Angry? Apathetic? OK with it? What's the vibe out there?

Listen to offers, sure, but it's folly to think we need to blow it all up. Habs29 is much closer to the mark with his proposal to move basically 3 or 4 guys out. The core is much stronger than this abysmal season has shown. And Gorges certainly should not be moved if he is interested in staying.

Habs29, I like where you're coming from here. The Flyers/Bruins should indeed be our model because our core is NOT in fact that of a bad team. The issue with AK46 is not that he sucks, it's that he's an expiring contract; if there are real doubts about whether we can sign him, then since we have no chance of making the playoffs, we should move him. Of course, to discern this, Gauthier absolutely must deviate from the idiotic policy of not negotiating during the season. He should be on the blower with Kostitsyn's agent ASAP to figure out whether Kosty wants to stay or is just putting in the time before he can go cash in elsewhere. There's also the question of how much you're willing to pay to keep Kostitsyn. UFAs are almost always overpaid and you're known to be extremely hostile to even a whiff of overpayment. I'm also not sure why it's so screamingly urgent to move Kaberle. You need veteran D, he has played well for us so far, and contrary to popular myth that is NOT a crippling contract. Stop thinking he's the guy Carolina got stuck with - out of shape and under-prepared - and start recognizing him for the player he is, an efficient puck-moving defenceman who helps the powerplay considerably and is only overpaid by maybe $500 000. Other than that, I think you're spot on.

Here's one thing I learned from watching the Habs in the Houle era: when a team sucks, every piece of bad luck or adversity seems like a back-breaking cataclysm. That's because bad teams have zero margin of error. The issue isn't really the refs blowing the Pittsburgh game (which was much more egregious than this game, IMO), or somehow blowing the goal last night. The issue is that this team has wasted half a season and now desperately needs everything to go its way in order to make the playoffs. This makes that one goal seem like the end of the world. But the reason it's so catastrophic is the Habs' fault, not the refs'. Now I don't believe for a moment this team has given a representative account of itself this season; we're not truly a bad team, we've just been playing one on TV. Nevertheless, any hope of making the playoffs depends on a W against Florida and I have a very strong feeling they will fail to show up for that one. It's that kinda year.

No, the team actually carried their strong play into Tampa. We lost because Price was shaky at a key moment and/or the refs mucked it up. With a team as opportunistic as Tampa, you can't have breakdowns like that.

Well, that was a drag. I know the goal was controversial, but then again, Price should have had that. I don't believe in scapegoating and I'm NOT syaing we lost 'cause of him, but that's a goal he can't allow at that moment. We played pretty well tonight. Tougher third period, but the Lightning had the momentum at home. We desperately need a win in Florida...why do I get the feeling the team is gonna lay a stinker.

That's the third period in a row where you see this team and actually find yourself believing in it. They're rediscovering themselves a bit, I think.

Well, I'm not sure about that. It's conceivable that the Oil are hungry to make the playoffs NOW. They have plenty of young assets as well and might in principle be willing to move one. The problem, no doubt, is that Kosty is an impending UFA. Otherwise we might well have a chance to use him to pry a good young asset out of Edmonton, given that Hemsky seems to have become marginal to the Oilers' plans and Kosty would provide a much more robust presence for them. I'm surprised Cammy's name hasn't arisen in this connection. I don't know the Oilers' cap situation - I don't even know their roster very well, really - but at face value you'd think he'd be a great addition for them, and one who would warrant some significant return in young talent for us.