The Subban prediction thread

[dlbalr]

With it being another off day with not a whole lot going on in the news, may as well play the guessing game of "Will PK Play?" We saw yesterday some suggestions from Radio-Canada that it wasn't just Martin behind the benching but that some of the veterans went to Martin and asked him to intervene regarding a variety of concerns.

As for the game tomorrow night, we know that in all likelihood, Martin will have to change the lineup to compensate for Gomez's injury. The question then becomes, do they go with Boyd or dress 7 D? And if 7 D are dressed, does one dress as a forward; if so, who? Or will Martin change as little as possible and just Boyd in and keep the D the same?

Should Subban play tomorrow? Will he play tomorrow? Make your picks (and discuss since there really isn't a whole lot else going on...).

[bar]

Jm has taken the most important thing away from Subban, his ice time. I'm sure Subban knows its important to play the role JM wants him to now, delaying his chance for redemption is only going to make his eventual return worse.

What really bugs me is: if Price saves that SH shot, none of this happens, but by no means am I blamming Price. PK does not get sat. The team has dodged bullets lately but not having to rely on the PP, but eventually they will need the PP to start working, PK gives them what they need at the point, a puck mover who can shoot.

[lazy26]

With it being another off day with not a whole lot going on in the news, may as well play the guessing game of "Will PK Play?" We saw yesterday some suggestions from Radio-Canada that it wasn't just Martin behind the benching but that some of the veterans went to Martin and asked him to intervene regarding a variety of concerns.

What were the concerns, Brian? I really hope it's nothing serious.

I think Subban should absolutely draw back into the lineup, but we all know Martin's aversion to messing with a winning lineup. Thus, I'd predict that PK sits until a loss or injury deem otherwise.

[coach]

I'd like to see ma homie G back in the lineup, but I don't think that will happen. It may take an injury or bad games by either Spacek or Weber (just a prediction on my part) for PK to return. I think he should have been benched in the first place since the edmonton game was the only bad game he has had. The only saving grace is that Weber is finally playing well defensively and can show that he could be a part of the team in the future.

[dlbalr]

What were the concerns, Brian? I really hope it's nothing serious.

The article references them (3 in total), not quite sure whether 2 of those were the brief skirmishes with Plekanec in practice or something different entirely. No specifics were in there (that I could understand at least).

[saskhab]

If the point is to make P.K. realize he's not going to get special treatment, and that he must earn the coach's trust in order to play, Martin really has no choice but to wait for a loss or an injury to play him. Games in December where we've built up a bit of a cushion in the standings is as good as any time to do this kind of lesson in humility, so I don't really have a problem with it. I'm actually a little sick of discussing it, personally. But I'll suck it up and state my opinion for the good of the team here.

[dlbalr]

In another R-C article discussing Subban, former Bulldogs GM Julien BriseBois commented that the organization was telling him last year to work on his professionalism. The way Subban has been chirping on the ice (a lot more than the playoffs at that), he may have forgotten the message. That can be added to the ever growing speculative list of what may have prompted the benching.

http://www.radio-canada.ca/sports/hockey/2...mez-jeudi.shtml

[bar]

My issue with earning the coaches trust was he is arguable the best or 2nd best defenceman on the team. If Hammer or Spacey were rookies their mistakes would be called 'learning' but since they're vets they get passes. Why didn't JM ramp down Subbans ice time, he went from one extreme (top minutes for D) to benching. The habs could have lost the last three games just as easily as won and I bet there would be A LOT more fans in favour of Subban.

It's not like Subban is trying to crack the lineup as a journeyman, he is a top prospect, humility aside, he gives the team the best chance to win the game. The habs are riding a fine line between winning and losing by having their PP not live up to it's billing, eventually the 5 on 5 goals will dry up. People say that PK has to learn he's no different than the rest of the team, that no one is bigger than the team, but that's not hockey culture, I constantly point out the tiered system on teams, see: rookies vs. vets. JM is stubborn to keep him out of the lineup any further.

[bar]

In another R-C article discussing Subban, former Bulldogs GM Julien BriseBois commented that the organization was telling him last year to work on his professionalism. The way Subban has been chirping on the ice (a lot more than the playoffs at that), he may have forgotten the message. That can be added to the ever growing speculative list of what may have prompted the benching.

http://www.radio-canada.ca/sports/hockey/2...mez-jeudi.shtml

What bugs me about these 'on-ice vocal concerns', is that, has PK received a misconduct penalty? Has Moen had to step up and fight for Subban? Why is this an issue, it is not affecting the outcome of the game, is it an organizational want, they think his chirping could affect their bottom line? I could buy that argument, but will he be more or less effective without the so called chirping?

[dlbalr]

What bugs me about these 'on-ice vocal concerns', is that, has PK received a misconduct penalty? Has Moen had to step up and fight for Subban? Why is this an issue, it is not affecting the outcome of the game, is it an organizational want, they think his chirping could affect their bottom line? I could buy that argument, but will he be more or less effective without the so called chirping?

Not yet, but I'll give you the counter argument to that. Why wait for him to take a misconduct or get in too deep where he needs a teammate to step up for him? Why not be proactive (especially if this was addressed with him last year in Hamilton) instead of reactive and try and "fix it" before he causes problems in that regard?

As for effectiveness if he dropped, my guess is that it'd probably be neutral in the end, possibly skewing slightly positive. For every player (rare) that he'll get off his game by yapping (not by his play, like last year in the playoffs), he could also lose the respect of officials when it comes to giving him the benefit of the doubt. You look at the known yappers in the league, Lapierre, Avery, Kaleta, etc. It's rare that they get the call even when there should be one, I'm sure none of us want Subban to fall into that category.

[bar]

I guess I just don't see it that way Brian, I like his emotion and yapping, heck, yapping hasn't hurt Crosby one bit, he still gets all the calls. What if he starts turning into a very mediocre defenseman, that is what I worry about with all this attempt at reigning in. Could JR have been as effective without his charisma? How about Roy, without his cockiness? I just think they are making a mistake by trying to change him.

[dlbalr]

I guess I just don't see it that way Brian, I like his emotion and yapping, heck, yapping hasn't hurt Crosby one bit, he still gets all the calls. What if he starts turning into a very mediocre defenseman, that is what I worry about with all this attempt at reigning in. Could JR have been as effective without his charisma? How about Roy, without his cockiness? I just think they are making a mistake by trying to change him.

They're not telling him to simply shut up though - the sense I get is that he's placed himself on too high a pedestal and needed to be knocked down a peg or two. All rookies, even the Crosby's, Kane's, and Hall's of the world, have to take their knocks as the rookie. This to me is just a part of it, with more attention being given since it's the media frenzy that is Montreal. Cockiness is fine, but even then it should have some boundaries. I think those boundaries are being established right now. Subban is nowhere near the same d-man he was in the playoffs, he was a lot quieter then and I'd say basically just as effective as he is now. That's what I think the organization (coaches, veterans, etc) wants him to return to, as do I. You can still have charisma and play with flare as Subban does without running his mouth constantly. The sooner he finds that balance, the better it'll be for all parties involved.

As for Crosby, I don't think he gets the benefit of the doubt anywhere near as often as he could/should (the Leafs were doing a good job mugging him last night and weren't called for them). On that matter, I don't equate what he does to what Subban does - one chirps (PK), the other whines (Crosby). Both involve yapping but there's a world of difference. I'll say this much, I'm glad Subban doesn't yap like Crosby.

Edit: Having seen the quotes from Martin on the TwitterBug (on the main page), it sounds as if the decision to bench him was primarily behavioural based. One of them: "Important to keep in mind that it's a privilege to play at this level, lots of responsibilities attached to it." (Quotes are from HIO's Dave Stubbs.)

[bar]

Yeah, Brian you make great points. Haha on a personal level I just want him to succeed sooner than later, he's a likable guy.

[dlbalr]

Yeah, Brian you make great points. Haha on a personal level I just want him to succeed sooner than later, he's a likable guy.

He's succeeded quite a bit so far; if he 'takes his lickings' the right way, it won't be long before he gets back in and plays like a core player.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Judging from the Radio-Canada piece, the veteran core had more than one discussion with Subban concerning unspecified 'concerns.' And Subban repeatedly did not take the criticism or the advice or whatever it was. The piece doesn't say whether it had to do with his on-ice chirping or whatever it was. My view is that when you're a rookie and (presumably) Gionta, Gill, Gomez, Gorges etc. approach you saying that some aspects of your behaviour are hurting them and hurting the team, then you'd better friggin' listen. In fact, you'd be stupid not to.

This does raise concerns to me about PK's head-space. I love his larger-than-life swagger, but Montreal is SUCH a dangerous market for that type of player, with so many traps. It is reassuring to know we have a core here now that will demand accountability and a coach who will back that core up. Still, I wouldn't be stunned to find PK running into ego- or lifestyle-related problems in Montreal sooner or later. Hopefully the lesson sinks in.

[bar]

I did google translate on that article and it wasn't perfect, but how credible is the report.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I did google translate on that article and it wasn't perfect, but how credible is the report.

Here's the key bit:

« Certains événements ont eu lieu, les vétérans sont intervenus, et ça s'est mal passé, une, deux, trois fois, a expliqué l'analyste Dany Dubé sur le plateau de La clique, mercredi. Puis, un comité de leaders est allé voir l'entraîneur pour expliquer ce qui se passait, et les réactions de P.K. Subban à la critique. »

Rough translation:

"Certain events transpired, the veterans intervened, and it went down badly - and this happened one, two, three times," explained analyst Dany Dubé. "So the leadership committee went to the coach to explain what had happened, and how Subban had reacted to their criticism."

It sounds as though Subban basically got hostile when challenge by the veterans about something and refused to take instruction.

I always thought of Dubé as a good analyst and a credible source. Other more dedicated followers of the French media may be in a better position to assess that.

[bar]

I find it hard to believe though, maybe I'm blinded because in the media PK says and does the right things, and I can't say I know him personally on anything, but something like that seems out of character, but I have been wrong before and will be wrong again haha.

[CoRvInA]

Oh man, if only L'Antichambre was available in English

These reporters have witnessed and have had undisclosed one on one's with veterans and in short I'll tell ya it boils down to this:

-Humbleness (lacking)

-Respecting Veterans experience ON the ice... e.g. When PK was telling Hammer to switch sides with him (telling Hammer to play on the right)

-Not paying attention to Coaches recommendations and becaus of his Golden boy status the Coaches not knowing how to scorn the kid (when they sure know how to other players) ~~~~ jealousy?

-etc....

[bar]

See this stuff isn't reported in the english media.

I'd be more believing in exact accounts, not that I don't believe you, just saying, it seems off from what I've seen from PK.

[saskhab]

Veterans are often very blunt with rookies. They just aren't so with the vets. It's simply the way it is in the NHL. Given some things I've heard about other players on other teams, I don't see this as being too far fetched. How they perceive P.K.'s reaction might be a bit overblown, but hey, perception is reality in this case.

I wonder if this stuff is starting to leak out of the dressing room just because of how long this current situation has dragged on. Reporters tend to hold these kinds of things close to their vests for a reason: they aren't really 'on the record' comments though they could technically report them if they wanted, as the players aren't exactly being secretive about them.

[l.moustakas]

See this stuff isn't reported in the english media.

I'd be more believing in exact accounts, not that I don't believe you, just saying, it seems off from what I've seen from PK.

I can buy that his teammates do not take to well to some of his behaviours, but beyond that I do side with Bar a tad here. He showed up to rookie camp when, in reality, he could have earned a spot regardless. He certainly says the right things and always seems to be most pleased with his teammates successes (think of when Eller scored his first goal... Subban looked almost happier than him!).

Then again, it's RDS and it's l'Antichambre (aka 110% light). So, euh, I'll get my salt shaker if you don't mind.

Finally, in the shameless self promotion category, the Subban conversation is front and centre in this week's ATB: http://habsworld.net/article.php?id=2300

Come on, you had to see that plug coming....

[Toronthab]

I think the same people who knew the Price was right, will also know when its right to put PK back in no matter what the issues.

What the heck do WE know.

[saskhab]

I can buy that his teammates do not take to well to some of his behaviours, but beyond that I do side with Bar a tad here. He showed up to rookie camp when, in reality, he could have earned a spot regardless. He certainly says the right things and always seems to be most pleased with his teammates successes (think of when Eller scored his first goal... Subban looked almost happier than him!).

Then again, it's RDS and it's l'Antichambre (aka 110% light). So, euh, I'll get my salt shaker if you don't mind.

Finally, in the shameless self promotion category, the Subban conversation is front and centre in this week's ATB: http://habsworld.net/article.php?id=2300

Come on, you had to see that plug coming....

It's possible the reports are BS. I have reached the conclusion (see the Subban conformity thread) that the story is now the story, not the actual benching. It's now just drama for the sake of drama.

Now if P.K. scores the winning goal in a playoff series we'll always get some snarky announcer referencing the benching ('can you believe they sat this guy for four or five games in December?').

I can't believe how much I've said about this topic. I've gotten emails from EOTP readers about it (and I never get those, lol) and it's ended up on the Huffington Post. If you guys weren't talking about it I would have dropped it, but hey, I love bantering with this group so I can't resist.

What's amazing is that people seem to ignore the fact we're on a 3 game winning streak. That, to me, is the message to Subban: this is a team game, and we don't need you to be heroic in order to win games. Just play smart hockey.

But what I said about vets being harsh on rookies is quite true. Every time he makes a screw up or tries to do too much, you can bet the guys notice and actually swear about it. And they probably don't do the same when Gomez or Spacek do it.

[bar]

Hmm for what it's worth, TSN article says Subban is expected to draw back in against Detroit.

http://www.tsn.ca/story/?id=344926