Montreal's Best Rookie Since Saku Koivu

[BTH]

Great debate. I think this is one of the best Threads I've read in a long time. Interesting viewpoints.

Who ever you think is the better rookie, everyone has to agree this guys make for a promising future in Montreal.

NOt to knock Koivu for nothing, but could you imagine next year HIggins and Ryder on a line together with a #1 center? I'm not sure these guys can reach there full potential with Koivu. BUt with a guy like Brad Richards, they're(Higgins and Ryder) both capable of 30 goals and maybe a Selke for Higgins. Then Koivu, Kovalev and either PErezhogin or Kostitsyn on the second line. Could be the best top 6 in hockey. Very exciting. Too bad it won't happen. Hopefully Koivu can stay healthy and play a full season next year.

Go Habs

Koivu might be more of a 1B or a #2 center but of the 3, Koivu is the closest to being a true topliner. Higgins doesn't belong on the 1st line and Ryder definitely doesn't. We will never go anywhere with Ryder on the top line. We need someone with a better over all game. I'd really like to see Kovalev and Koivu put back together on the top line. Maybe even try Zednik with them again. If not, then Zhog.

[kaos]

Higgins and Ryder are easily top line material and jsut need a better centerman than Koivu, who has proven over the last 20 years that he is not a #1 center. He's never scored at a point a game pace, he's struggled with injuries, this guy a best is a 1a guy and thats when he's on his game. Jesus, the guy couldn't score in 22 games. I can't remember the last time Sakic, Richards, Lecavalier, Thornton, Spezza, Sundin, Datysuk or guys like that went 22 games without scoring.

A true #1 center would rocket these guys to stardom. 29 Goals by the Sophmore Ryder and 20 by the rookie Higgins, are impressive feats, and they will be first line forwards. They pretty much are now.

[ozhab]

I can't remember the last time Sakic, Richards, Lecavalier, Thornton, Spezza, Sundin, Datysuk or guys like that went 22 games without scoring.

A true #1 center would rocket these guys to stardom. 29 Goals by the Sophmore Ryder and 20 by the rookie Higgins, are impressive feats, and they will be first line forwards. They pretty much are now.

Of all the stars mentioned there, Sundin is really the only guy i (humbly) feel has been doing it all himself. Everyone else has had the support around them to ease the pressure. That's not to take away from their sublime skills and obvious superiority...

Koivu isn't a goal scorer primarily, he's a playmaker. Give him quality wingers and he will provide the point-per-game average so desperately desired. Anyone remember the '99 season when Koivu led the league in scoring before going down with injury? That was with Corson & Savage either side of him!?!

But enough of Koivu. My vote is with Ryder for doing what he did it on the offensively starved team of two years ago. Stand up and be counted.

[ozhab]

Just for the record....

1998

1. Éric Chouinard - 1st round, 16th overall (Quebec Remparts)

2. Mike Ribeiro - 2nd round, 45th overall (Rouyn-Noranda Huskies)

3. François Beauchemin - 3rd round, 75th overall (Laval CF Titans)

4. Andrei Bashkirov - 5th round, 132nd overall (Fort Wayne, IHL)

5. Gordie Dwyer - 6th round, 152nd overall (Quebec Remparts)

6. Andrei Markov - 6th round, 162nd overall (Khimik Vosk., Russia)

7. Andrei Kruchinin - 7th round, 189th overall (Lada Togliatti, Russia)

8. Craig Murray - 8th round, 201st overall (Penticton High School)

9. Michael Ryder - 8th round, 216th overall (Hull Olympiques)

10. Darcy Harris - 9th round, 247th overall (Kitchener Rangers)

2002

1. Christopher Higgins - 1st round, 14th overall (Yale University)

Maybe the Habs could stick to drafting in the later rounds....

(courtesy of the official Habs site)

[BTH]

Higgins and Ryder are easily top line material and jsut need a better centerman than Koivu, who has proven over the last 20 years that he is not a #1 center. He's never scored at a point a game pace, he's struggled with injuries, this guy a best is a 1a guy and thats when he's on his game. Jesus, the guy couldn't score in 22 games. I can't remember the last time Sakic, Richards, Lecavalier, Thornton, Spezza, Sundin, Datysuk or guys like that went 22 games without scoring.

A true #1 center would rocket these guys to stardom. 29 Goals by the Sophmore Ryder and 20 by the rookie Higgins, are impressive feats, and they will be first line forwards. They pretty much are now.

Overall Ryder is a pretty bad player. He's like Dagenais but with a worse shot and much better work ethic. Ryder has peaked - expect about 30 goals from him every season but also expect him to have a negative +/- and not to do much else. He's much better suited for the second line and 1st PP unit. And Higgins is good but his strength isn't his goal scorer. He's a guy that you can play in any position on any line and he'll do well. Higgins definitely isn't tested enough. It's more his chemistry with his linemates than that he's actually a superstar. Higgins and Ryder are good friends and both like to score goals which is where a playmaker like Koivu comes in. He's is without a doubt the best of the 3 players and I don't see how anyone can even question that.

[CerebusClone]

Higgins and Ryder are easily top line material and jsut need a better centerman than Koivu, who has proven over the last 20 years that he is not a #1 center. He's never scored at a point a game pace, he's struggled with injuries, this guy a best is a 1a guy and thats when he's on his game. Jesus, the guy couldn't score in 22 games. I can't remember the last time Sakic, Richards, Lecavalier, Thornton, Spezza, Sundin, Datysuk or guys like that went 22 games without scoring.

A true #1 center would rocket these guys to stardom. 29 Goals by the Sophmore Ryder and 20 by the rookie Higgins, are impressive feats, and they will be first line forwards. They pretty much are now.

By the way, Thornton ended a 12-game goal-less streak in the beginning of April, which didn't prevent him from being a dominating force on the ice. Koivu isn't in the same category as Thornton (who is besides Forsberg?), but his job is not to score goals; his job is to control the play, and generate scoring opportunities, whether for himself or his linemates.

Personally, I think that it's Koivu that would benefit from better linemates. Again in the last few games, I've seen Ryder miss so many scoring opportunities on which a true first line winger would have capitalized. As for Higgins, I love the guy, but even he said that he wouldn't be this hot if it weren't for Koivu.

I honestly don't believe that Richards would do any better than Koivu in Montreal. Thornton, for sure, but not Richards. As for Lecavalier, still can't say he's really much more productive than Koivu, and he's never scored at a point-per-game ratio; Koivu has in his sophomore season. Actually, he was even the best scorer in the league that year before going down with his first injury.

[Mont Royale]

Overall Ryder is a pretty bad player. He's like Dagenais but with a worse shot and much better work ethic. Ryder has peaked - expect about 30 goals from him every season but also expect him to have a negative +/- and not to do much else. He's much better suited for the second line and 1st PP unit.

We need more bad players like him. To say he has maxed out in his second year underestimates his ability to grow as a player, and Gainey/Carbonneau's ability to demand/get more. He has been much better even in recent games - it's obvious the coaches are encouraging him to use the body more. He's also capable of some pretty nice moves, and protects the puck well.

There's work to be done, but Ryder has the potential to evolve into a more effective player than he is now.

[Dalhabs]

Isnt Beauchemin having kind of a good year this season?

[CerebusClone]

We need more bad players like him. To say he has maxed out in his second year underestimates his ability to grow as a player, and Gainey/Carbonneau's ability to demand/get more. He has been much better even in recent games - it's obvious the coaches are encouraging him to use the body more. He's also capable of some pretty nice moves, and protects the puck well.

There's work to be done, but Ryder has the potential to evolve into a more effective player than he is now.

I agree that there is still some room for improvement in Ryder's game, but not that much. Overall, I would say he's close to have maxed out (which still makes him a decent 2nd liner), although if he could improve his basic positioning, and make better use of his linemates, he could be a very good player.

Isnt Beauchemin having kind of a good year this season?

He is, but how much of it is due to playing with Scott Niedermayer all season long? He wasn't doing any better in Colombus than he did in Montreal. It's like M-A Bergeron in Edmonton who was playing with Chris Pronger earlier this season, but he hasn't done much since.

Hopefully for him, he has really progressed, and doesn't need Niedermayer to look good.

[Natural Mystic]

I'd just like to say that there is always room for growth in a player. And I agree with Mont Royal. Ryder does have the ability to hit, deke and obviously score... and those can all be improved. Even his speed has improved after the Olympic break.

Either way, I voted for Higgins. I liked him even when he wasn't playing on the first line. I liked his work ethic on the PK, he was amazing. Great all round player!

[Trizzak]

Koivu might be more of a 1B or a #2 center but of the 3, Koivu is the closest to being a true topliner. Higgins doesn't belong on the 1st line and Ryder definitely doesn't. We will never go anywhere with Ryder on the top line. We need someone with a better over all game. I'd really like to see Kovalev and Koivu put back together on the top line. Maybe even try Zednik with them again. If not, then Zhog.

Remember what happened to Ribs - Ryder last year in the playoffs? Koivu playing with Ryder (and Higgins) and Kovalev playing with Ribiero forces accountability. No more hiding behind your fellow inexperienced linemates, play up to the proven playoff performer beside you.

I say keep the lines as they are, especially with the recent chemistry.

The only change I want to see is someone finally stepping up and shutting the revolving door on the second line winger. Zed? Bulis? Perezhogin? Anybody care to step up?

[simonus]

It's like M-A Bergeron in Edmonton who was playing with Chris Pronger earlier this season, but he hasn't done much since.

yeah... but he's totally ready to come in and replace zidlicky as my top-4 offensive d-man on nhl 2005. Doesn't that stand for something? No? Okay...

[BTH]

We need more bad players like him. To say he has maxed out in his second year underestimates his ability to grow as a player, and Gainey/Carbonneau's ability to demand/get more. He has been much better even in recent games - it's obvious the coaches are encouraging him to use the body more. He's also capable of some pretty nice moves, and protects the puck well.

There's work to be done, but Ryder has the potential to evolve into a more effective player than he is now.

The thing is that Ryder doesn't have much potential. He never did. He was a grinder in Juniors and never had much skill at all. Just because he's young, doesn't mean he's got potential. Don't expect him to ever get much more goals than he'll get this season except don't expect him to ever get much less.

If he isn't scoring, he's completely useless. He's actually also a little too confident with his stickhandling. Lately he's been trying to deke people except he just doesn't have the talent. He'll be a solid secondliner his whole career but that's it.

[Mont Royale]

The thing is that Ryder doesn't have much potential. He never did. He was a grinder in Juniors and never had much skill at all.

He never had much potential - but now he's a 2-time 25+ NHL scorer. 'Potential' is a difficult thing to gauge, obviously...

[kaos]

Overall Ryder is a pretty bad player. He's like Dagenais but with a worse shot and much better work ethic. Ryder has peaked - expect about 30 goals from him every season but also expect him to have a negative +/- and not to do much else. He's much better suited for the second line and 1st PP unit. And Higgins is good but his strength isn't his goal scorer. He's a guy that you can play in any position on any line and he'll do well. Higgins definitely isn't tested enough. It's more his chemistry with his linemates than that he's actually a superstar. Higgins and Ryder are good friends and both like to score goals which is where a playmaker like Koivu comes in. He's is without a doubt the best of the 3 players and I don't see how anyone can even question that.

Are you serious? Or are you just bitter about Bulis being history at the end of the year? This is just garbage. I can't believe you would compare Ryder with Dagenais. Thats a joke.

Yeah right now Koivu is the better player of the three. He should be. He has 10 years in the league. Higgins and Ryder combined have less than 3. These will be Montreals #1 wingers of the future, unless Kositsyn pushed one of them out.

He never had much potential - but now he's a 2-time 25+ NHL scorer. 'Potential' is a difficult thing to gauge, obviously...

Must just be bitter about the fact Bulis won't be back next year. I can't believe someone can crap so much on a 30 goal scorer.

[Huckleberry]

I was only one of six who voted Markov and her is why:

He doesn't score as many goals: true. That is because he is a defencemen. However, when the Rangers come to town, check out who is stuck to him like glue shutting down the MVP.

If you compare who is a better at their respective positions, I gotta go with Markov. Markov is a better defenceman than Ryder/Higgins is at forward.

[CerebusClone]

We're talking about their rookie seasons, not the impact they have today. Markov did great with the few opportunities he was given during his rookie season, but it remains that he had a very limited role that year, unlike Ryder last season, and now Chris Higgins. Actually, I would say Markov was never really given a real chance until this season; I always said that he was far superior to Brisebois, and even Souray last season. Unfortuantely, he was almost always getting this leftovers on the powerplay, and far less ice time than Brisebois.

[BTH]

Are you serious? Or are you just bitter about Bulis being history at the end of the year? This is just garbage. I can't believe you would compare Ryder with Dagenais. Thats a joke.

Yeah right now Koivu is the better player of the three. He should be. He has 10 years in the league. Higgins and Ryder combined have less than 3. These will be Montreals #1 wingers of the future, unless Kositsyn pushed one of them out.

Must just be bitter about the fact Bulis won't be back next year. I can't believe someone can crap so much on a 30 goal scorer.

Go learn something about hockey and then get back to me. Ryder and Higgins, first line wingers of the future? Now that's a joke.