Best goalie of all time?

[Aebischer4life]

I'm not talking about the winningest goalie of all time, nor the one with the most stanley cups. On outright talent and ability to stop the puck, who would you say was the best? By the way, you cant choose a goalie who you havent seen play. (I.E. George Vezina, Jacques Plante)

My choice is Hasek.

6 Vezina trophies in 8 seasons

Holder of the Top 5 Save %-s of the whole 1990-s

2 Pearson trophies

2 Hart Trophies

5 out of 6 seasons with 0.930 save % or more.

1 Stanley Cup

1 Olympic Gold Medal

Playoff record 6 shutouts

Modern Era record 6 shutouts in one month!

You could go with Roy too, I think its a tossup. Who would you choose and why?

[Pierre the Great]

If I can't choose Plante then I'm going with Roy. I liked his attitude, lol, um I just thought he was the coolest.

[markierung]

Patrick Roy

3 vezina

more importantly: 3 con smyth trophies.... he wins when it matters

[JLP]

By the way, you cant choose a goalie who you havent seen play. (I.E. George Vezina, Jacques Plante)

Shortcat may have seen those guys

Anyway will pick St. Pat :hlogo:

[Aebischer4life]

Patrick Roy

3 vezina

more importantly: 3 con smyth trophies.... he wins when it matters

Yep. Patrick Roy never really stood out in the regular seasons other then his vezina years in the late 80-s early 90-s but he was always there when it counted the most.

Here's how I figure.

Regular Season: Hasek

Playoffs: Roy

[mathieu30]

Patrick Roy. Nuff said.

[option+]

I'm going with Hasek.

Think about this for a second: he was named Czechoslovakian goalie of the year every year from 1986 to 1990. The next year he went to North America. He had a three-year North American apprenticeship in the IHL, as Belfour's backup in Chicago and in a platoon with Fuhr and Darren Puppa in 1992/93 in Buffalo. From 1993/94 to 2000/01, he was the #1 in Buffalo and was the best goalie in the league, at least according to stats and those 6 Vezinas he won.

If you ignore the three years he spent getting used to North America and look only at the years he was a #1 guy... you can reasonably argue that he was the best goalie in his league for 13 straight years. Absolutely amazing.

[KoZed]

Toss up between Plante and Sawchuk... They were dominant for decades, in an era where goalies had virtually no protection and no technique.

In modern days, I'll go with Roy over Hasek, because Roy actually played in an offensive era during the first half of his career, and you can consider him the first franchise goalie ever. Hasek had awesome records, but it was in an era where franchise goalies started popping up all over the place. Just look at Theodore's Hart season or Giguere's Conn-Smythe run to see how easy it was for goalies then to make a big difference.

[Pierre the Great]

Shortcat will say Plante he played til the mid 70's, granted he was really old and past his prime. I remember him saying he became a habs fan after Richard's last game or something so yeah he's elligible to say Plante. lol

[Aebischer4life]

Toss up between Plante and Sawchuk... They were dominant for decades, in an era where goalies had virtually no protection and no technique.

In modern days, I'll go with Roy over Hasek, because Roy actually played in an offensive era during the first half of his career, and you can consider him the first franchise goalie ever. Hasek had awesome records, but it was in an era where franchise goalies started popping up all over the place. Just look at Theodore's Hart season or Giguere's Conn-Smythe run to see how easy it was for goalies then to make a big difference.

Roy actually played in the same defensive era as Hasek as well so I dont see your point.

Dom always had much better stats in the regular season then Roy except for his last season in Detroit (2001-02)

Dom's performance had not much to do with the defensive league because Dom had identical stats in 1993-94 and 1994-95 as 1997-1998 and 1998-99 and it got tighter after 2000 and Dom's stats were even less then they were before.

If you choose Roy for his playoff performances then you're right. But to say Roy>Hasek in the regular season, I'm afraid I cant agree with you.

Edited October 30, 2006 by Aebischer4life

[KoZed]

Roy actually played in the same defensive era as Hasek as well so I dont see your point.

85 to 94 wasn't the same era as Hasek. Roy played in that era. That was a very offensive era. Goalies who could hold a GAA under 3.00 were the exception, not the norms.

There's my point.

[jetsniper]

Patrick Roy easy. Hasek was ok but Roy was one of the few goalies to actually change the game with the butterfly style. He started the boom of French-Canadian goaltenders and most of them looked up to him. Brodeur, Giguere, Luongo, they all mention Patrick as their idol. First goalie to play 1000 games, most all-time wins, most all-time playoff wins, most all-time playoff shutouts. He is still the games number 1 money goalie, he has 3 Conn Smythe trophies. Thats more then anyone else in the game, ever.

Hasek flopping on the ice is fine and dandy but did he ever take his teams anywhere? I don't think so! You want the Wayne Gretzky of goalies, you look at Patrick Roy.

85 to 94 wasn't the same era as Hasek. Roy played in that era. That was a very offensive era. Goalies who could hold a GAA under 3.00 were the exception, not the norms.

There's my point.

Beat me to it Koz.

[Aebischer4life]

85 to 94 wasn't the same era as Hasek. Roy played in that era. That was a very offensive era. Goalies who could hold a GAA under 3.00 were the exception, not the norms.

There's my point.

If Roy was as good as you say in the regular season, how come he did not benefit in the same era as Hasek?

From 1993-94 to 2001-02:

Save %-s:

1993-94:

Hasek: 0.930 (1st)

Roy: 0.918 (2nd)

On 2000 shots, difference is 24 goals

1994-95:

Hasek: 0.930 (1st)

Roy: 0.906 (9th)

On 2000 shots, difference is 48 goals

1995-96:

Hasek: 0.920 (1st)

Roy: 0.908 (10th)

On 2000 shots, difference is 24 goals

1996-97:

Hasek: 0.930 (1st)

Roy: 0.923 (4th)

On 2000 shots, difference is 14 goals

1997-98:

Hasek: 0.932 (1st)

Roy: 0.916(7th)

On 2000 shots, difference is 32 goals

1998-99:

Hasek: 0.937 (1st)

Roy: 0.917 (7th)

On 2000 shots, difference is 40 goals

1999-00:

Hasek: 0.919 (tied for 1st)

Roy: 0.914 (6th)

On 2000 shots, difference is 10 goals

2000-01:

Hasek: 0.921 (3rd)

Roy: 0.913 (11th)

On 2000 shots, difference is 16 goals

2001-02:

Hasek: 0.915 (9th)

Roy: 0.925 (2nd)

On 2000 shots, difference is 20 goals

As we see, Hasek blows Roy out of the water in the first 8 seasons. Only time where Roy beats Hasek is the last one in 2001-02.

Now let's head on to GAA:

1993-94:

Hasek: 1.95 (1st)

Roy: 2.50 (2nd)

On 60 games, difference of 33 goals

1994-95:

Hasek: 2.11

Roy: 2.97

On 60 games, difference of 51 goals

1995-96:

Hasek: 2.83

Roy: 2.78

On 60 games, difference of 3 goals

1996-97:

Hasek: 2.27

Roy: 2.32

On 60 games, difference of 3 goals

1997-98:

Hasek: 2.09

Roy: 2.39

On 60 games, difference of 18 goals

1998-99:

Hasek: 1.87

Roy: 2.29

On 60 games, difference of 25 goals

1999-00:

Hasek: 2.21

Roy: 2.28

On 60 games, difference of 6 goals

2000-01:

Hasek: 2.11

Roy: 2.21

On 60 games, difference of 6 goals

2001-02:

Hasek: 2.17

Roy: 1.94

On 60 games, difference of 14 goals

Again, only season where Roy clearly beats Hasek is the last one in 2001-02. All other years Hasek is way better then Roy except in 1995-96 when Roy beats Hasek by a slight margin.

For me its where each goalie was ranked among there peers rather then the era they played in, and every season except one where Hasek was a starter, he has been better then Roy.

[Pierre the Great]

85 to 94 wasn't the same era as Hasek. Roy played in that era. That was a very offensive era. Goalies who could hold a GAA under 3.00 were the exception, not the norms.

There's my point.

Yeah I heard about Fuhr and his oiler days, high scoring to say the least.

[smon]

Jetsniper- I like Roy better too but to call Hasek just "ok" is a joke. And did he take teams anywhere with his "flopping"? You bet, he won the Stanley Cup too...

Roy was simply the best, Hasek had beautiful numbers and was a supreme netminder as well, but in terms of when it came down to a winner takes all game, I'd prefer to have Roy over Dom.

[Fanpuck33]

All-time? I have no idea. I have no business trying to say. I can only base judgement on about 15 years of watching hockey.

Between Roy and Hasek? Roy, hands down. Sure, head-to-head in the mid-90s, Hasek's numbers are better. But Roy was an elite goalie for nearly 20 years. Hasek, on the other hand, only did it in the NHL for 10 years. Was Hasek better? I don't know. But if we are talking best all time, then you have to go with the guy who played at an elite level for a much longer amount of time.

[jetsniper]

Jetsniper- I like Roy better too but to call Hasek just "ok" is a joke. And did he take teams anywhere with his "flopping"? You bet, he won the Stanley Cup too...

Roy was simply the best, Hasek had beautiful numbers and was a supreme netminder as well, but in terms of when it came down to a winner takes all game, I'd prefer to have Roy over Dom.

He won the Stanley Cup on a loaded Detroit team. That team would've won the Cup with Osgood.

Compared to Patrick, Dom is decent. They're both top 10 all-time but Patrick is leagues ahead of Dom.

[Aebischer4life]

He won the Stanley Cup on a loaded Detroit team. That team would've won the Cup with Osgood.

Compared to Patrick, Dom is decent. They're both top 10 all-time but Patrick is leagues ahead of Dom.

WOW...

Roy: 3 vezinas in 20 years

Hasek: 6 vezinas in 8 years

Roy: 0 Harts in 20 years

Hasek: 2 Harts in a row

Roy: 0 Pearsons in 20 years

Hasek: 2 Pearsons in a row

Roy: Never had a 0.930+ save %

Hasek: 0.930 save % in 5 out of 6 seasons

Hasek with better stats in all but one season since being a starter.

LEAGUES AHEAD OF DOM? Yeah ok...

He won the Stanley Cup on a loaded Detroit team. That team would've won the Cup with Osgood.

Compared to Patrick, Dom is decent. They're both top 10 all-time but Patrick is leagues ahead of Dom.

And Roy won the stanley cup on sucky teams? The 1996 avs and 2001 avs were just as good as the 2002 old wings team.

The 1993 habs team was no slouch either. We inished 2nd in the east that year.

I mean I loved Roy too when he played for us but give Hasek some credit here. He wasnt just "some goalie" riding the pine on a loaded team in a defensive era. It's obvious Roy is your favorite player of all time, but lets put things into perspective here.

Edited October 30, 2006 by Aebischer4life

[Fanpuck33]

He won the Stanley Cup on a loaded Detroit team. That team would've won the Cup with Osgood.

Haha, you can't use that argument. Roy's Avs teams were stacked too.

[jetsniper]

Hahaha, that '96 team wasn't stacked. It was good but certainly not stacked.

Don't forget we had to beat the 62 WIN Detroit Red Wings. How about that '93 team? I've seen plenty of people around here say that team had no business winning. And '86? He was younger then most of you guys when he put one of the better playoff performances.

I mean, Warren Rychel, Alexei Guasrov, Curtis Lechyshyn, even Adam Foote still wasn't regarded as a top notch defender. Without Patrick, that 1996 team loses in the 2nd round to Chicago. Can't say the same for Detroit, can you? Lidstrom, Chelios, Dandenault. All better then any D-man the 95-96 Avs had to offer.

Aebi, theres one thing that matters and thats winning. Take a look at Hasek and Roy. In 638 games played, Hasek has won 324 games. you divide that to get a winning % of 0.508. Now lets multiply that by Roy's GP (1029) and see where he stands...522.6

Oh...oh dear. That doesn't quite match 551 now does it? But now you'll say Roy played on better teams through the years. But surely with all those fancy Vezinas and Harts, Dom should even out right? I mean, who cares about winning when you won a Hart trophy? Just ask Theo.

(And yes, theres a hint of cynicism in this post)

[Pierre the Great]

Roy simply because he revolutionized the position. He started the wave of Quebecios goalies. He changed the game. He had the longer career. More memorable moments. Showed up in the playoffs, and is a cultural icon.

I can't say that about Hasek. Hasek might have been the better technical goalie but he didn't have that star power that Roy had and still has.

Analogy: Roy was a Trudeau you either loved him or hated him and he was a talker and had charisma there by becoming technically bigger then the game. I mean if a guy like myself from Saint Louis was glued to the tv everytime he played because he was that good you know he was something special, plus he was unpredictable, in terms of what he'd do on the ice.

Hasek: a businessman. He went to work did his job then went home, quietly. Modern day example would be Marvin Harrison of the Colts. He does his job, doesn't do it flashy and then goes home. Harrison is one of the best wide receivers ever to play the game but nobody mentions him because he's not flashy about it.

Hasek and Roy were too different animals, they both were good at what they did but the edge goes to Roy because of what he became, and what he did for the game.

Hasek is more looked up to in Europe because he's European. He's not flashy thats because of his upbringing as a goalie I believe.

Now all the Hasek people are going to say I'm putting style over substance . If I am, oh well.

[Aebischer4life]

Hahaha, that '96 team wasn't stacked. It was good but certainly not stacked.

Don't forget we had to beat the 62 WIN Detroit Red Wings. How about that '93 team? I've seen plenty of people around here say that team had no business winning. And '86? He was younger then most of you guys when he put one of the better playoff performances.

I mean, Warren Rychel, Alexei Guasrov, Curtis Lechyshyn, even Adam Foote still wasn't regarded as a top notch defender. Without Patrick, that 1996 team loses in the 2nd round to Chicago. Can't say the same for Detroit, can you? Lidstrom, Chelios, Dandenault. All better then any D-man the 95-96 Avs had to offer.

Aebi, theres one thing that matters and thats winning. Take a look at Hasek and Roy. In 638 games played, Hasek has won 324 games. you divide that to get a winning % of 0.508. Now lets multiply that by Roy's GP (1029) and see where he stands...522.6

Oh...oh dear. That doesn't quite match 551 now does it? But now you'll say Roy played on better teams through the years. But surely with all those fancy Vezinas and Harts, Dom should even out right? I mean, who cares about winning when you won a Hart trophy? Just ask Theo.

(And yes, theres a hint of cynicism in this post)

Yeah because if you win because your teams are awesome then you're better then a guy who has to face 45 shots a night and wins a little less then you?

Remember when Theo was something like 13-3-3. Was he playing like the best goalie in the league? Not even close. Yet he had the most wins.

If Roy was the best goalie because of his wins, why did he not get any Vezinas in the last 12 years of his 18 year career? Could it be because he wasn't that great a regular season goalie? Could it be because Dom was just simply better in the regular seasons? I think it was both.

Vezina= Best goalie in a particular season

Hart= Most valuable player in a particular season

Pearson= Best player as voted by the players in a particular season

Wins= Being on the best team in a particular season.

Sakic and Forsberg had as much to do with Roy's wins as Roy did himself.

If we went by wins then Ed Belfour, Martin Brodeur and even Chris Osgood were better then Hasek. Um...ok!!!

And you still havent replied to my post where I showed how Dom outpefromed Roy season after season.

Hasek's average career save % is 0.924. Isn't it hilarious that Hasek's CAREER average is 0.001 less then Roy's CAREER year?

Edited October 30, 2006 by Aebischer4life

[jetsniper]

I'm not saying he was the best goalie because of his wins, I'm just throwing stats around as if they mean something. Apparently they do to you. The fact of the matter is Patrick started a goaltending revolution in the 1980s and changed the face of the game. Like Pierre said, he became a cultural icon.

How about Dominik? Why'd he get all those awards? Well, he was better during that one particular season. But he certainly didn't have a better career. He has zero drive to win and doesn't care about his teammates. Just ask Detroit or Ottawa. Patrick was a fierce competitor who cared MORE about his team then himself, something that was blatantly obvious Hasek didn't.

I forget who said but I've seen it in a quote around here "Stats are like a bikini. They show a little bit but not everything". Same thing applies here. Patrick left his mark and is known as pioneer. Dominik came in and played well but he won't leave the same kind of mark on the game that Patrick has, I can guarantee that. And I did reply to it, last post. Try reading what I post next time.

Oh, and I'd put Brodeur ahead of Hasek too. Live I said, all three in my top 10 but I'd have Brodeur and Roy ahead of Hasek.

[Aebischer4life]

I'm not saying he was the best goalie because of his wins, I'm just throwing stats around as if they mean something. Apparently they do to you. The fact of the matter is Patrick started a goaltending revolution in the 1980s and changed the face of the game. Like Pierre said, he became a cultural icon.

How about Dominik? Why'd he get all those awards? Well, he was better during that one particular season. But he certainly didn't have a better career. He has zero drive to win and doesn't care about his teammates. Just ask Detroit or Ottawa. Patrick was a fierce competitor who cared MORE about his team then himself, something that was blatantly obvious Hasek didn't.

I forget who said but I've seen it in a quote around here "Stats are like a bikini. They show a little bit but not everything". Same thing applies here. Patrick left his mark and is known as pioneer. Dominik came in and played well but he won't leave the same kind of mark on the game that Patrick has, I can guarantee that. And I did reply to it, last post. Try reading what I post next time.

Oh, and I'd put Brodeur ahead of Hasek too. Live I said, all three in my top 10 but I'd have Brodeur and Roy ahead of Hasek.

Now it's clearly obvious you have something against Hasek. What has Brodeur done to be ahead of Hasek?

Sometimes I wonder if Hasek had been the habs and avs goalie and Roy was Buffalo's goalie, habs and avs fans would surely not say Roy was better by a landslide.

You're playing favorites here my friend.

Who do you choose? Mark Messier or Guy Lafleur

Messier had the better career but I go with Lafleur who dominated much more then the moose in his prime.

Same thing applies here.

By the way the wins stat is a joke for goalies. The only good measurement of a goalie is save %. GAA is inflated because of the team in front of the goalie and same as the wins.

Edited October 30, 2006 by Aebischer4life

[Pierre the Great]

Guy Lafleur was flashy

Messier had Wayne.

Again I'm going with cultural icons again. Lafleur wins out, again.