Strummerman Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 (edited) Nick Lidstrom has 3 Points more than him and is a +38 (Souray -13). And also Scott Niedermayer has as many points as Souray and is +7 Fine we all know what any team would have to offer to get Lidstrom and Niedermeyer, Souray is very close, and more important he has much more goals. And Souray doesn't have HaseK or Pronger on his team. Yes he might be a piece to the puzzle for some team on the cusp - that isn't the problem with your post. The problem is your suggested return for a guy like Souray. It probably isn't a realistic yield for a guy like this when you consider the fact that the buyer might not have him beyond the spring of 2007. I could be wrong as to how much he is worth, but that's a lot to pay for Souray. If he had a year left on his contract then it might happen along those lines, but that kind of a deal would surprize me..... However I would love to be surprized! Well you ignored the fact Nashville got Forsberg for 2 months as well? They think he is the missing link? Even though Forsberg in the last 2 years has been a shadow of his former self. Meanwhile Souray has been at the top of his game. Edited February 16, 2007 by Strummerman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneSharpMarble Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Souray is probably a top 10 defenseman in this league. His minus numbers reflect the team as much as Souray. Haha Markov might crack the top 10, Souray isn't close. Don't use his offense to cover up for his poor defensive capabilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummerman Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 (edited) Haha Markov might crack the top 10, Souray isn't close. Don't use his offense to cover up for his poor defensive capabilities. No one is pretending Souray is a great defensive defenceman. However, look at Gonchar with Pittsburgh. He is also a defensive liability but I doubt the Penguins would be as effective this year without him on the powerplay. Offensive quarterbacks on the powerplay in the new NHL are very important. It seems to me that is what San Jose lacks. Edited February 16, 2007 by Strummerman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Haha Markov might crack the top 10, Souray isn't close. Don't use his offense to cover up for his poor defensive capabilities. Sorry, don't agree. Markov is a solid defenseman, but offense from the point is highly desired in this league, and Souray has it. Just because he is not in the top 10 defensively doesn't mean he is crap. I suspect you will see Souray making more then Markov next year. Put Souray with a decent defensive partner (ie, not Rivet), and you have a great pairing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneSharpMarble Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Sorry, don't agree. Markov is a solid defenseman, but offense from the point is highly desired in this league, and Souray has it. Just because he is not in the top 10 defensively doesn't mean he is crap. I suspect you will see Souray making more then Markov next year. Put Souray with a decent defensive partner (ie, not Rivet), and you have a great pairing. Markov has an outlet pass that teams drool over, he is one of the best defensmen in the league and would fetch us alot more than Souray. Take away Sourays shot from the point and he has nothing. Souray might make more than Markov but it wont be much but since when is salary indicitive of worth? If it was Theo would be a top 5 goalie. Yeah put souray with a great defensman and you have one great defensman and someone who can shoot the puck, big deal. The other defensman will be constantly covering for Souray. Don't get me wrong he has alot of other great assets but if you think he is a top 10 defensman in the league you are dillusional. I know strummerman is out there cause he wanted vlasic, carle and a 1st from sj for souray. Go post that trade on any other site, you will be laughed out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Markov has an outlet pass that teams drool over, he is one of the best defensmen in the league and would fetch us alot more than Souray. Take away Sourays shot from the point and he has nothing. Souray might make more than Markov but it wont be much but since when is salary indicitive of worth? If it was Theo would be a top 5 goalie. Yeah put souray with a great defensman and you have one great defensman and someone who can shoot the puck, big deal. The other defensman will be constantly covering for Souray. Don't get me wrong he has alot of other great assets but if you think he is a top 10 defensman in the league you are dillusional. I know strummerman is out there cause he wanted vlasic, carle and a 1st from sj for souray. Go post that trade on any other site, you will be laughed out. "Take away his shot".. thats the whole point, he has a shot, which is hard to find in this league. He also has size. He is definitely worth more then you think and he is not nearly as bad defensively as you make out. I know you don't like him, but seriously, there are not a lot of defensemen out there with his offensive capability, which is why he is going to get big buck and be an asset to any team. He is far better then McCabe and has a strong market value. Oh yeah, 2nd time all star... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beliveau1 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Fine we all know what any team would have to offer to get Lidstrom and Niedermeyer, Souray is very close, and more important he has much more goals. And Souray doesn't have HaseK or Pronger on his team. Well you ignored the fact Nashville got Forsberg for 2 months as well? They think he is the missing link? Even though Forsberg in the last 2 years has been a shadow of his former self. Meanwhile Souray has been at the top of his game. I never said it wouldn't happen - however the reality is that Souray is a mere shadow of Forsberg. Forsberg is not what he once was, but his grit and skill are in a different league than Souray is right now, even if he is a good offensive threat. They are not to be mentioned in the same breath, injured or not! There is no way he brings the same value as Forsberg! Good value = yes, but not that much.... Do I hope the Canadiens move Souray at the deadline? Well let's put it this way.... if they don't have a chance of resigning him, then I hope they milk him for whatever unbelievable price they can get!!!!!! And let's be honest - Lidstrom and Niedermeyer are far and away above Souray when it comes to playing defense. Unlike Souray these guys are as good at one end of the ice as the other. By the way, can you please tell me when did Lidstrom suddenly need a Hasek to make him one of the best, or when did Neidermeyer need a guy like Pronger to make him one of the best? These guys stand on their own talent and accomplishment alone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneSharpMarble Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 "Take away his shot".. thats the whole point, he has a shot, which is hard to find in this league. He also has size. He is definitely worth more then you think and he is not nearly as bad defensively as you make out. I know you don't like him, but seriously, there are not a lot of defensemen out there with his offensive capability, which is why he is going to get big buck and be an asset to any team. He is far better then McCabe and has a strong market value. Oh yeah, 2nd time all star... Yeah he is also a UFA, which means NO ONE is going to gut their future for a shot at souray for a few months. We would be lucky to get Vlasic and a conditional pick for souray let alone a 1st pick, and those two. Sure he will get us something, he isn't worthless. Don't compare him to forsburg, that is really laughable. We would get a good prospect and picks for him, no more no less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Yeah he is also a UFA, which means NO ONE is going to gut their future for a shot at souray for a few months. We would be lucky to get Vlasic and a conditional pick for souray let alone a 1st pick, and those two. Sure he will get us something, he isn't worthless. Don't compare him to forsburg, that is really laughable. We would get a good prospect and picks for him, no more no less. I never compared him to Forsberg, or suggested that a team would gut themselves for him. Souray can definitely bring a decent young player and a good pick for rental rights. He is desired. One day I have a dream that this team will stop dumping offensive players because of various faults, then complain about a lack of offense. Even Crosby is barely a plus player, he is also a whiner. If he was a habs, there would probably be a movement to dump him for a hard working role player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smon Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Souray has so many qualities a contender would need. He is essentially Montreal's powerplay, he carries that load. He can play 20 mostly error free minutes a night. He has leadership skills, can dish out the hits and fights. The team that acquires him will not be looking to pair him with Craig Rivet, but rather a defender who can cover for Souray's occasional mistakes. He's easily worth a first round pick in this year's draft and a decent prospect. I still hope Gainey can sign him... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Souray has so many qualities a contender would need. He is essentially Montreal's powerplay, he carries that load. He can play 20 mostly error free minutes a night. He has leadership skills, can dish out the hits and fights. The team that acquires him will not be looking to pair him with Craig Rivet, but rather a defender who can cover for Souray's occasional mistakes. He's easily worth a first round pick in this year's draft and a decent prospect. I still hope Gainey can sign him... He can play about 5 mostly error-free minutes a night. The rest is repleat with errors and it's painful to watch. Don't get me wrong, I agree with everything else you've said about him and I'm sure he could get a first and a prospect / young player, but he's a terrible *defender*. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch_nl Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Our current situation might force Souray to California. Sheldon would be vital to the Habs in a playoff, but as the team perform right now, they won't even be there and Souray will probably sign elsewhere. Therefore I expect him to be gone before the deadline. San Jose would be the first choice but what could he get us back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneSharpMarble Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 One day I have a dream that this team will stop dumping offensive players because of various faults, then complain about a lack of offense. Even Crosby is barely a plus player, he is also a whiner. If he was a habs, there would probably be a movement to dump him for a hard working role player. Kovalev is your favorite player, it's no wonder you don't value hard work. How is Crosby not a hard working forward? The guy is a grinder and is always working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House11 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Depending on how the games this weekend go .. if they look lifeless again then I say open up the barn doors and let the UFA's out ( except maybe Markov ). SJ needs a defenseman ... Souray would look very nice on that powerplay of there's ... now there is one player they have that I think would be great in MTL who's not even on they're roster right now. STEVE BERNIER .. how good would he look on a line with Lats ? or on the other line. two franchophone powerforwards on MTL ?? B) solid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zowpeb Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 The whole point is that Souray will not get you 2 of the best young D prospects in the game + a 1st round pick. It won't happen. San Jose would never EVER trade so much future for 2 months of a PP quarterback. And comparing Souray to Forsberg as far as value is just f'n dumb. Forsberg can lead a team to the finals...he's that good. Souray will put up some good points for a d-man, far more then his career average btw, and he'll cost his team some goals too. I can think of about 20 d-men I'd rather have then Souray. Off the top of my head: Niedermeyer Lidstrom Pronger Bouwmeester Chara Redden (yup, despite an off year) A. Markov Phaneuf T. Kaberle Zubov Whitney Chara Rafalski Ohlund Salo Visnovsky Weber Pitkanen Carle - lol Suter Gonchar That's 21...and it even includes one of the 2 prospects you want to trade Souray for...lmao. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneSharpMarble Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 The whole point is that Souray will not get you 2 of the best young D prospects in the game + a 1st round pick. It won't happen. San Jose would never EVER trade so much future for 2 months of a PP quarterback. And comparing Souray to Forsberg as far as value is just f'n dumb. Forsberg can lead a team to the finals...he's that good. Souray will put up some good points for a d-man, far more then his career average btw, and he'll cost his team some goals too. I can think of about 20 d-men I'd rather have then Souray. Off the top of my head: Niedermeyer Lidstrom Pronger Bouwmeester Chara Redden (yup, despite an off year) A. Markov Phaneuf T. Kaberle Zubov Whitney Chara Rafalski Ohlund Salo Visnovsky Weber Pitkanen Carle - lol Suter Gonchar That's 21...and it even includes one of the 2 prospects you want to trade Souray for...lmao. Every one of those destroys Souray...... "top 10 in the league" BAHAHAHAHAHA It's no wonder we are hated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummerman Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 I never said it wouldn't happen - however the reality is that Souray is a mere shadow of Forsberg. Forsberg is not what he once was, but his grit and skill are in a different league than Souray is right now, even if he is a good offensive threat. They are not to be mentioned in the same breath, injured or not! There is no way he brings the same value as Forsberg! Good value = yes, but not that much.... Do I hope the Canadiens move Souray at the deadline? Well let's put it this way.... if they don't have a chance of resigning him, then I hope they milk him for whatever unbelievable price they can get!!!!!! And let's be honest - Lidstrom and Niedermeyer are far and away above Souray when it comes to playing defense. Unlike Souray these guys are as good at one end of the ice as the other. By the way, can you please tell me when did Lidstrom suddenly need a Hasek to make him one of the best, or when did Neidermeyer need a guy like Pronger to make him one of the best? These guys stand on their own talent and accomplishment alone! Your dreaming of the glory years of the Avalanche: Forsberg is a shadow of his former self- Frankly that Forsberg trade reminds me of the Bertuzzi for Luongo trade- I said it when it happened it was a horrible trade, Bertuzzi was a great weapon 3 years ago- Luongo had proven it the last 2 years- I think the ame analogy Forsberg versus Souray- Forsberg was great 3 years ago Souray has been a weapon for the last 2 years. I was saying Lindstrom and Niedermeyer have great +- because of the players surrounding them. If Souray played on the, Ducks or the Wings his +- would be just as high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummerman Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 The whole point is that Souray will not get you 2 of the best young D prospects in the game + a 1st round pick. It won't happen. San Jose would never EVER trade so much future for 2 months of a PP quarterback. And comparing Souray to Forsberg as far as value is just f'n dumb. Forsberg can lead a team to the finals...he's that good. Souray will put up some good points for a d-man, far more then his career average btw, and he'll cost his team some goals too. I can think of about 20 d-men I'd rather have then Souray. Off the top of my head: Niedermeyer Lidstrom Pronger Bouwmeester Chara Redden (yup, despite an off year) A. Markov Phaneuf T. Kaberle Zubov Whitney Chara Rafalski Ohlund Salo Visnovsky Weber Pitkanen Carle - lol Suter Gonchar That's 21...and it even includes one of the 2 prospects you want to trade Souray for...lmao. Yeah Im sure San Jose has a great chance to win the CUp with Carle rather than Souray lol- Yeah Pitkanen has great stats this year lol- Yeah Salo is tearing up the leagues this year lol - yeah Boumeester is an untouchable lol- Whitney lol- Weber-lol-in fact I would have put people like Pronger anfd Jovanovski on the list- anyways you missed my point I was talking stats It is nice to know that the supposed Habs fans are downgrading the value of Souray- Im sure if other GMs think like you we may get Rory Fitzpatrick for Souray lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beliveau1 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Your dreaming of the glory years of the Avalanche: Forsberg is a shadow of his former self- Frankly that Forsberg trade reminds me of the Bertuzzi for Luongo trade- I said it when it happened it was a horrible trade, Bertuzzi was a great weapon 3 years ago- Luongo had proven it the last 2 years- I think the ame analogy Forsberg versus Souray- Forsberg was great 3 years ago Souray has been a weapon for the last 2 years. I was saying Lindstrom and Niedermeyer have great +- because of the players surrounding them. If Souray played on the, Ducks or the Wings his +- would be just as high. No I'm not dreaming of his glory years - don't be an ass and tell me what I'm thinking of.... Forsberg was picked up for what he brings to the table - grit and character. Not because he will produce offensively. They have that in spades. He is there for the intangibles he brings to the table. And in a market looking to establish themselves they felt it was worth. Those days are most likely behind him. although if they can fix his skate/ankle issues it could be interesting? Souray brings nothing other than his offense to the game and is a defensive liability far too often. At best he will be a second pairing defenseman used mainly on the power play if a contender wants him. He will not be a leader or a top unit guy. That in and of itself is what makes the difference between him and Forsberg, who happens to have been a proven winner(and I don't see that on Souray's pedigree!) Truth is if he can't be resigned and the Canadiens know this, I'd prefer he go for anything other than lose him for nothing this summer. But the ideas suggested have to be realistic. Managers out there hearing that kind of offer would be rolling on the floor gagging with laughter after they stopped puking... And those defensemen are only better than they already were to start with when given a good supporting cast - you have to admit the simple truth that these guys were already better than Souray ever will be way before this year . They didn't need any help to establish their credentials. As for other guys making a player better - obviously thats true. Never said it wasn't. Goodness gracious Dave 'cementhead' Semenko is great evidence of that line of thought. If that determines a players value then he should have been traded for a lot more than he was ever worth - oops I forgot he played with Gretzky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummerman Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 No I'm not dreaming of his glory years - don't be an ass and tell me what I'm thinking of.... Forsberg was picked up for what he brings to the table - grit and character. Not because he will produce offensively. They have that in spades. He is there for the intangibles he brings to the table. And in a market looking to establish themselves they felt it was worth. Those days are most likely behind him. although if they can fix his skate/ankle issues it could be interesting? Souray brings nothing other than his offense to the game and is a defensive liability far too often. At best he will be a second pairing defenseman used mainly on the power play if a contender wants him. He will not be a leader or a top unit guy. That in and of itself is what makes the difference between him and Forsberg, who happens to have been a proven winner(and I don't see that on Souray's pedigree!) Truth is if he can't be resigned and the Canadiens know this, I'd prefer he go for anything other than lose him for nothing this summer. But the ideas suggested have to be realistic. Managers out there hearing that kind of offer would be rolling on the floor gagging with laughter after they stopped puking... And those defensemen are only better than they already were to start with when given a good supporting cast - you have to admit the simple truth that these guys were already better than Souray ever will be way before this year . They didn't need any help to establish their credentials. As for other guys making a player better - obviously thats true. Never said it wasn't. Goodness gracious Dave 'cementhead' Semenko is great evidence of that line of thought. If that determines a players value then he should have been traded for a lot more than he was ever worth - oops I forgot he played with Gretzky Sorry your being an ass- that same Forsberg grit and determination that let the Sabres wipe out the Flyers last year- you are dreaming of the past- Forsberg whether thru injury or age is a shadow of his former self period. As is Bertuzzi- As for saying Souray brings nothing but his offensive game duh that's what I keep repeating- take away Gonchar from the Penguins and their powerplay is average to mediocre and they are as bad as last year in the standings- If you haven't noticed the New NHL is a powerplay influenced league. The point you should have made is that if Lindstrom or Niedermeyer played with the Habs would they be in the playoffs and higher up- I think so. Never said Souray compared to either one- However could Souray make a difference to a team like San Jose in their Cup run, I dont think there is a doubt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneSharpMarble Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Sorry your being an ass- that same Forsberg grit and determination that let the Sabres wipe out the Flyers last year- you are dreaming of the past- Forsberg whether thru injury or age is a shadow of his former self period. As is Bertuzzi- As for saying Souray brings nothing but his offensive game duh that's what I keep repeating- take away Gonchar from the Penguins and their powerplay is average to mediocre and they are as bad as last year in the standings- If you haven't noticed the New NHL is a powerplay influenced league. The point you should have made is that if Lindstrom or Niedermeyer played with the Habs would they be in the playoffs and higher up- I think so. Never said Souray compared to either one- However could Souray make a difference to a team like San Jose in their Cup run, I dont think there is a doubt Go post your trade idea on the sharks forum, then leave a link here. If they praise you and embrace your trade then I will take back everything and proclaim you king of the interweb. Until then YOU ARE WRONG. He isn't worth san joses future, and no one but you thinks he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummerman Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Go post your trade idea on the sharks forum, then leave a link here. If they praise you and embrace your trade then I will take back everything and proclaim you king of the interweb. Until then YOU ARE WRONG. He isn't worth san joses future, and no one but you thinks he is. No sorry besides some people agreeing with me here, and I have zero interest in the Sharks or being King of the interweb. All I care about is the habs, maybe you should post in the Sharks site, the way you think maybe we should get somebody in the ECHL for Souray. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Yeah he is also a UFA, which means NO ONE is going to gut their future for a shot at souray for a few months. We would be lucky to get Vlasic and a conditional pick for souray let alone a 1st pick, and those two. Sure he will get us something, he isn't worthless. Don't compare him to forsburg, that is really laughable. We would get a good prospect and picks for him, no more no less. Nagy got a body and a 1st. Souray can get more than that. Fact. So Souray must equal pretty good player + 1st. Maybe one of Vlasic and Carle, not both, or I wouldn't think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Kovalev is your favorite player, it's no wonder you don't value hard work. How is Crosby not a hard working forward? The guy is a grinder and is always working. You excel at putting words into peoples mouths... I have never said Kovalev is my favorite player. You probably have as much of a clue about the Habs as you do about my preferences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneSharpMarble Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 (edited) Nagy got a body and a 1st. Souray can get more than that. Fact. So Souray must equal pretty good player + 1st. Maybe one of Vlasic and Carle, not both, or I wouldn't think so. I didn't say he couldn't get one of them, strummerman said he could get Vlasic, Carle and a 1st! That would ruin the sharks future and is outrageous. Nagy is worth more than Souray, he is younger, a ppg player on a terrible team, and he is making 900,000. Sure he will get more next year but Souray will expect probably 5million and he is not worth it. People need to step out of this forum once in awhile and realize that other teams value their players and dont exist only to serve us. You excel at putting words into peoples mouths... I have never said Kovalev is my favorite player. You probably have as much of a clue about the Habs as you do about my preferences. If he isnt your favorite player then why does it say "Kovalev" under favorite player? Edited February 16, 2007 by OneSharpMarble Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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