bobby Posted March 23, 2007 Author Share Posted March 23, 2007 Well, I don't think you can compare Kostitsyn's contribution in the playoff run to Plekanec'. Pleks has been the heart and soul of the team in the second half of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby Posted March 23, 2007 Author Share Posted March 23, 2007 Even if Kostitsyn earns TWICE AS MUCH as Plekanec and Halak in the NHL, he certainly isn't as important to the team. Nor do I think he ever will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneSharpMarble Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Well, I don't think you can compare Kostitsyn's contribution in the playoff run to Plekanec'. Pleks has been the heart and soul of the team in the second half of the season. Kosty has turned that line into a constant threat on the ice, Plekanec was good but he couldn't do much with Kovalev and Sammy. Kosty is making everyone around him better and he is just getting warmed up you watch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 I still remember the scouting reports about Plex from the time he was a draft candidate. He was amongst the top Czech of his class and pegged as a mid 2nd rounder. He was compared to Elias and Hejduk back then. We got him late and it was sort of a steal. I dont think Plex will reach the peak Elias or Hejduk had, but he's showing great signs of progress and is looking like the type of player that would make lots of experts peg as a sleeper who panned out perfectly and turned into a solid, reliable, energetic core player, kinda like McDonald in Anaheim. As for Kosty, he's a pure-bread, who was considered best pure offensive talent on par with Zherdev of their draft class, which included Staal, Vanek, Horton, Carter, Parise, Richards, Perry, etc. The kid oozes talent and seems to be the "always dangerous when on the ice" aura about him that reeks of game-breaker nature. That's the type of player that makes a difference when you're in the clutch. Comparing both players is unfair. Plex has 2 more pro-years in N-A soil than Kosty; and doesnt come from the same pipeline. The Belarussian hockey program still has some good heritage from the old USSR days; but it doesnt compare to the Czech program who bolsted them to top dogs on the World level. Young Czechs like Plex are much better prepared now when they come to N-A. Either, both players have very different tools and both fill complementary roles. Plex is the smart, responsible, consistent center and Kosty is the high-risk high-reward offensive winger. If they keep playing this well together they might become one of the good young duos in the league, the type you can build a 2nd line around right away, and see mature in maybe a 1st line later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby Posted March 23, 2007 Author Share Posted March 23, 2007 Either, both players have very different tools and both fill complementary roles. Plex is the smart, responsible, consistent center and Kosty is the high-risk high-reward offensive winger. Even at that Plekanec put up better numbers in the AHL at the same age. For a forward who is "pure breed", (or one dimensional), Kostitsyn just doesn't produce enough to justify his wage. One of the kids coming up behind him, D'Agostini, Aubin, S. Kostitsyn, or White is bound to pass him on the depth chart. D'Agostini has had a better first year in the AHL than Higgins, Plekanec, Perezhogin and Kostitsyn. They have to make room for him soon, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Even at that Plekanec put up better numbers in the AHL at the same age. For a forward who is "pure breed", (or one dimensional), Kostitsyn just doesn't produce enough to justify his wage. One of the kids coming up behind him, D'Agostini, Aubin, S. Kostitsyn, or White is bound to pass him on the depth chart. D'Agostini has had a better first year in the AHL than Higgins, Plekanec, Perezhogin and Kostitsyn. They have to make room for him soon, I think. You're comparing kids who have very different upside. There's intengibles highly in Kosty's favor. His speed, vision, stickhandling, shiftiness are all higher above the other guys you mention. AHL stats are just that: AHL Stats. If they meant anything Benoit Gratton would be our 1st line C. That's the type of thing you can make AHL stats say. On the ice, in the NHL, they mean nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexstream Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Plekanec now has 33pts in his last 36 (if you really wanna compare again... Ribs has 22 pts in his last 33) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShortHanded Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Either, both players have very different tools and both fill complementary roles. Plex is the smart, responsible, consistent center and Kosty is the high-risk high-reward offensive winger. If they keep playing this well together they might become one of the good young duos in the league, the type you can build a 2nd line around right away, and see mature in maybe a 1st line later. This is what excites me :clap: Sometimes it's all about fit, and these two, while each being pretty good on their own, really look to fit with each other... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Plekanec now has 33pts in his last 36 (if you really wanna compare again... Ribs has 22 pts in his last 33) d So what, ribs still has more points on the season.. but it is not about ribs vs Pleks... it is about where Pleks fits... If you take the best 30 games any player has had and extrapolate, you will find Gretzky would lose a lot of records... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Has Pleks been our best center over the last little while? YES! That said, lets put it in perspective. Has he been one of the top centers in the league? NO! Has Koivu been playing well? NO! If Pleks was scoring at a 1.2 point per game pace consistently over the season, then sure, he would be a candidate for a number one center, number two for sure. The fact remains that Pleks has not been playing like a number one center, but Koivu has been playing as a number two center as well. I find it interesting that last year at these point totals, ribs was garbage as a number 2 center. This year, Pleks is hot! Ribs is now playing on the third line in Dallas with far less play time then Pleks is getting, and he still has more points! I bring this up only to put Pleks in perspective. He is playing awesome right now and at that peak rate, he is a decent number 2 center. If we want this team to be an elite team, then we need a significant improvement up the middle. I would like to see a better center then Koivu come in and be the number 1, Koivu as the number 2, and Pleks as the number 3. That is a very strong line up which would be the envy of many teams. I also agree with the view that people are counting their chickens before they hatch. Many players have had great seasons and then struggled. I would not bet the bank on Pleks getting so much better that we don't need to bring in a top line center. If Pleks does get that much better, we will have an embarrassment of riches... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Kostitsyn just doesn't produce enough to justify his wage. Justify his wage are you serious, he is on a rookie contract it is almost impossible for him not to earn his money. If Pleks was scoring at a 1.2 point per game pace consistently over the season, then sure, he would be a candidate for a number one center, number two for sure. The fact remains that Pleks has not been playing like a number one center, but Koivu has been playing as a number two center as well. I bring this up only to put Pleks in perspective. He is playing awesome right now and at that peak rate, he is a decent number 2 center. This just makes no sense to me you say if Plekanec was producing at 1.2 points per game it would still not be good enough for #1 centre. That would mean if he played 82 games he would have 98 points and finish top 10 in centre scoring. So are there only 5 or 6 true #1 centres in the league? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankhab Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 To hear a lot of you talk, Daniel Briere is a superstar who will win us the Stanley Cup if we sign him. Get real people. He is a very skilled, very small player, but he is not a superstar. Should we open the vault for him next year? Hell no. This team is building through the draft, and the fact is, we may begin next season with much the same roster as this year. Habs are 2 years from being a contender, if things keep deceloping as they are. This is not a bad thing, as this team is loaded with young talent. If we can unload Samsonov and/or Kovalov next year, and get the rest of the team signed, then Gainey will look to sign someone, but that player will not be some savior. Trust me, in 2 or 3 years when we have Price stopping everything, and guys like Latendresse and Kostytsin are hitting there stride, we'll all be happy for the slow rebuilding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 To hear a lot of you talk, Daniel Briere is a superstar who will win us the Stanley Cup if we sign him. Get real people. He is a very skilled, very small player, but he is not a superstar. Should we open the vault for him next year? Hell no. This team is building through the draft, and the fact is, we may begin next season with much the same roster as this year. Habs are 2 years from being a contender, if things keep deceloping as they are. This is not a bad thing, as this team is loaded with young talent. If we can unload Samsonov and/or Kovalov next year, and get the rest of the team signed, then Gainey will look to sign someone, but that player will not be some savior. Trust me, in 2 or 3 years when we have Price stopping everything, and guys like Latendresse and Kostytsin are hitting there stride, we'll all be happy for the slow rebuilding. But who are your centremen? A 36-year old Koivu, and Pleks? Sorry, the point is that Briere is a legitimate #1 C and that's the one element the Habs don't have in the system, young or old. Pay briere his 5 mil or whatever it is, and THEN I'll agree that we're 2 years away from contention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punkned Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 But who are your centremen? A 36-year old Koivu, and Pleks? Sorry, the point is that Briere is a legitimate #1 C and that's the one element the Habs don't have in the system, young or old. Pay briere his 5 mil or whatever it is, and THEN I'll agree that we're 2 years away from contention. That is the problem. We do not have a potential #1 center in the farm, so we need to sign one... Is Brière the best choice? I'm not sure, but the fact is that #1 UFA centers who produce over a point per game will be in demand, and we'll end up signing what we can instead of what we want. Except that I believe Gainey has learned from his mistake and will not go to "plan D" (Samsonov) in the future... I wonder if it'd be a good idea to have "3 second lines" instead of trying to sign a #1 center? Carbonneau likes to play all his lines, so why not split the talent like we've been doing for the last 2-3 games? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 This is what excites me Sometimes it's all about fit, and these two, while each being pretty good on their own, really look to fit with each other... Something tells me in a couple of years the Habs 1st line will be Lats-Plex-Kosty... could be like the old Naz-Morrison-Bert line in Vancouver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby Posted March 23, 2007 Author Share Posted March 23, 2007 Briere will be 30 next season. He has passed his prime. Don't make another Kovalev mistake. Plekanec is scoring as well or better than Briere did at the same age. Plus Pleks is stronger and better defensively. Tomas has averaged a point per game over the last half of this season, once he started to get decent playing time. If he was given Koivu minutes and power play time he would put up the same numbers as Briere, more or less, for far less money and with a strong team committment to boot. The problem may turn out to be with Koivu. I don't know how well he will react to reduced time and responsibility. But time marches on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Briere will be 30 next season. He has passed his prime. Don't make another Kovalev mistake. Plekanec is scoring as well or better than Briere did at the same age. Plus Pleks is stronger and better defensively. Tomas has averaged a point per game over the last half of this season, once he started to get decent playing time. If he was given Koivu minutes and power play time he would put up the same numbers as Briere, more or less, for far less money and with a strong team committment to boot. The problem may turn out to be with Koivu. I don't know how well he will react to reduced time and responsibility. But time marches on... I understand that Briere is not The Saviour. But 30 years old is NOT old in today's NHL. You can pencil him in, probably, for another four or so years of production at this level. Age shouldn't be the concern with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby Posted March 23, 2007 Author Share Posted March 23, 2007 When a player passes 30 the team is paying increased wages for decreasing production and durability. Simple fact. You can pull out the odd exception to this rule, but hoping for that exception is not smart management. Plus, bringing in a player from outside the organization at top dollar pushes all the current players down a notch and inhibits their potential development. When a player is earning 5 million a year or whatever, the coach almost HAS to play him, regardless if he is the best alternative. Look at Kovalev. There are at least half a dozen forwards on the team who are more effective game in and game out, but Kovy still gets the most playing time up front as a rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 This just makes no sense to me you say if Plekanec was producing at 1.2 points per game it would still not be good enough for #1 centre. That would mean if he played 82 games he would have 98 points and finish top 10 in centre scoring. So are there only 5 or 6 true #1 centres in the league? No, I am saying that if he did score at that rate, he would be a number one center. People are taking his last 30 games and extrapolating. Even if you did that, his points per game is not even breaking 1 point per game. So, I don't think that is good enough for a number one center. If you look at his real average, then he is scoring at a 0.6 point per game pace. If you are going to ignore his first 44 games, then why not ignore the last 45 games for Koivu? Or how about we pick the best 30 games of the season for any center? If we did that, you might want Ribs back...(kidding) I will get excited when we have a number one center who averages over a point a game, all season long, slumps included! Pleks, and even Koivu, have not done that, so I see no reason to be satisfied with them as our top two guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Tomas has averaged a point per game over the last half of this season, once he started to get decent playing time. I must have missed that time when he didn't get good ice time. He started the season as the number 2 center. He has had lots of ice time. Sure, he is hot right now. Higgins was hot at the start. Koivu was hot at the start. Pleks is scoring at less then a point a game and it is the hottest stretch of his entire hockey career. You might want to temper you enthusiasm with the thought that he might cool off some. His true potential is probably somewhere below what you are seeing now, and probably better then some people think. My biggest fear is that once he cools off, everyone will be dumping on him and want him traded, because he can't live up to their now exaggerated expectations. If we leave him as a number 3 / 2 center, pay him that way, then we will be happy and he will be happy, and there will be no need to trade him. If the team starts banking on him as a top two guy and signs him that way, he will get run out of town. The only guy who has shown a consistent ability to score top goals over several seasons (despite slumps), is Ryder, and most people seen to want him dumped already..... Remember Bulis? Not only did some people here think he was our next great player (with the proper ice time) based on a 20 game stretch last year, but unfortunately, Bulis drank the same cool aid and screwed his career up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby Posted March 23, 2007 Author Share Posted March 23, 2007 Obviously what a player accomplished in his last 30 games is much more relevent than what he did in his first 30. Or some random stretch of 30 games out of the past. I can't be bothered to go back to check the on ice time of Plekanec over the season, but I'm willing to bet that he is getting more in the second half than in the first, and more power play time. Overall he trails Koivu by at least a couple minutes per game, but of late I notice that Pleks is just as likely to get more ice time than Saku as not. Almost invariably a player's production in the following season can be predicted on the basis of his production in the final half of the previous season and playoffs. I would be willing to bet money that Plekanec averages close to a point per game next season and quite likely leads the team in scoring barring a serious injury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 Obviously what a player accomplished in his last 30 games is much more relevent than what he did in his first 30. Or some random stretch of 30 games out of the past. I can't be bothered to go back to check the on ice time of Plekanec over the season, but I'm willing to bet that he is getting more in the second half than in the first, and more power play time. Overall he trails Koivu by at least a couple minutes per game, but of late I notice that Pleks is just as likely to get more ice time than Saku as not. Almost invariably a player's production in the following season can be predicted on the basis of his production in the final half of the previous season and playoffs. I would be willing to bet money that Plekanec averages close to a point per game next season and quite likely leads the team in scoring barring a serious injury. I sure hope you are right, but I don't agree with your logic. Player stats often show that players get hot for a couple of months, but it is rare for them to maintain the pace. There are lots of middle line guys who have great seasons or partial seasons, then go back to normal. Look at how many players disappoint after a great season, when everyone predicts they will only get better, when in fact, they get worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby Posted March 24, 2007 Author Share Posted March 24, 2007 Plekanec' improvement has been pretty steady in terms of his offensive production. In the Czech Elite League, in the AHL, and now in the NHL. There is nothing to suggest that his last 30 or 40 games are some kind of a blip or anomoly. Perezhogin and Higgins have both imroved upon their rookie performances, statistically. Lapierre and Kostitsyn have both shown linear progress in the AHL and NHL statistically from year to year. There really aren't too many exceptions to the rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheldon_sniper_44 Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 Pleks as #1 C, based on 30 games? No thanks. Furthermore, to my knowledge Pleks was always regarded as a blue-chip prospect but not as an elite #1 C in the NHL. Nobody was going, 'ooo, Tomas Plekanec, here comes a dynasty in the making.' This isn't Sidney Crosby we're talking about. And besides, THIS TEAM HAS SUCKED ASS FOR THE ENTIRE SECOND HALF with your supposedly dynamic duo of Plekanec and Koivu. So we shouldn't sign Briere Mike Fisher because those guys are so good? Now I know what you're gonna say. 'Cuke, you're forgetting the INEVITABLE ARC OF LINEAR PROGRESSION that will see Plekanec blossom into a star. Pleks next year will build on what he's done this year, mushrooming into Pavel Datsyuk.' Sorry, but I just don't believe in this Iron Law of Player Development. The most frequent scenario is that players progress in fits and starts, gradually building into consistent performers, if they ever do. So a more sensible strategy is to sign a Briere type, move Pleks to the third line, and then - if it becomes clear that he's a scoring machine - ease Koivu out to pasture over the next 2-3 years. At that stage Pleks will be 27-8 and clearly ready for the Next Step, a second line C to our proven ace Briere, or even a 1A, if he has it in him (which I doubt). (Incidentally, Briere proves the case against this 'Iron Law of Player Development.' He was cut by two teams because they believed him too small to play effectively in the NHL. So much for 'projections'). Defense will win you championships! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 Gainey is always commited to put a team on the ice that will exceed it's performance over it's previous season........he said so when he got here and has acted accordingly since his first year with the CH. He grabbed Begin, Langdon and Dagenais and bought-off Audette and Czerkawski contracts at his first year with the club and was able to make a big improvement to a team that as missed the play-offs the season before. Then on our inaugural first year in the NewNHL last year he bought-off Brisebois and brought in Bonk, Huet and Murray throught exchange, Kovalev and Dandenault as free agents and 4 previous draftees made the team.........in the end, the team didn't loose (to much) ground over their previous pre lock-out standing position but we lost some in the play-offs when we exited in the first round unlike what we where able to acheived in the previous 03-04 season......a little regression but still.....this was after all a first year in the newNHL,....and their was some confort that our youth looked promising and to know that our most salient weakness was SCORING and how to go about improving this situation. Gainey had aknolewge the weakness and had mentionned that he would be active in looking to bring in a couple of forwards during the off-season. He made multiple changes, he let go of Bulis, zednick, Sundstrom, Ribeiro and brought in Samsonov, Johnson, Niinima and introduce previous draftees Lats and Lapierre later on. But now that we are near the end of the season it is clear that the attemps to improve our scoring over last season didn't materialised and that if we are unable to win the next 5 of our 7 remaining games we will actually have regressed substantially over last year by missing the play-offs altogether this time. Gainey's UFA signings were well targeted for the team's needs,......and had he signed the player we know he wanted to (Shanahan) our team would be well ahead of where we are now.......and had he signed Demitra (4.5M) instead of Kovy 2 years ago( which he may have tried )........our team would be as good as Buffalo is this year.......which is to say that Bob was aiming in the right direction. But what is Buffalo anyway ? Buffalo is a team that SCORES,......a team that's scores in today's NHL is a team that have young offensive talents playing on their depth lines contributing to the total scoring prowess of the team and are readilly availlable to take power play dutys when the players on top get injured.........Buffalo have had 4 or 5 of their premium veterans missing in action for a while this year......yet the youngs like Roy, Pominville and the other offensivelly talented depth liners have been ready to respond to the higher demands that were placed upon them..........all the while they themselves got replaced by other talented rookis from their farm team. Scoring depth in the whole organisation is required for success.....and I cant see this happening in a team that has their youngs assigned to the top lines of their teams......a team that do so would have a scoring problem or at the very least a scoring depth defficiency......and that is not a serious team. I believe that Gainey will use all the tools he has to go about fixing our scoring problems but it will be quite a challenge in our situation to get something done for next year and to try to get this team back in the play-offs....... althougt they are not out yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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