Guest Stogey24 Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 I certainly don't feel like waiting anymore. I'll trade our entire prospect stock if it makes us unquestionable contenders for the Cup. The next three years mean everything. I don't know if your being sarcastic, but I'm with you. I know everyone love Bergevin, as do I. Is he the guy to bring us the promise land though? Doubt is creeping in for me, that's for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 I don't know if your being sarcastic, but I'm with you. I know everyone love Bergevin, as do I. Is he the guy to bring us the promise land though? Doubt is creeping in for me, that's for sure. I'm not. When it came to acquiring Drouin I said I wouldn't sweat trading our top three prospects for him. The closest we have to prospects I'd be hesitant to trade are guys like Mike McCarron due to his unique characteristics and what he provides. But that's just a pause. If he's the Iginla to get a Nieuwendyk, pull the trigger. If we have to give up a prospect just to get Emelin moved to another team and use that cap space for a bigger star? Do it. If we don't draft in the first or second rounds for the next 5 years but people describe the Canadiens as, "Unfair" then do it. The first 20 games felt like what this team could be if dominant. I want this team to be like that team but better. I don't care how many under 21 year olds we have to trade to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 I would be more hesitant to trade a Hudon, Lehkonen or Juulsen, than picks, Beaulieu (only cause is likely to get good return on him) or a McCarron (who is overrated and in a Pavlov-way BIG makes GMs drool and do dumb deals). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 How is McCarron over rated? Every g.M knows what they're getting in him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 A 1st round bust? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 At some point the future is now. How long are we going to rebuild this club? This is like our 3 in a row 5 year plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 At some point the future is now. How long are we going to rebuild this club? This is like our 3 in a row 5 year plan. Yep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Rebuild? Did I miss something? I've seen this team re-tool, but never a rebuild. A rebuild starts with tearing it down to the studs and starting fresh. I haven't seen that from the Canadiens...ever. Chicago, Los Angeles, and Pittsburgh (3 of last 4 Stanley Cup champs in the past 7 years) have built there cores through high draft picks because of a proper rebuild. Rebuilds are painful and typically mean that the team will miss the playoffs for a few years. Habs are rarely sellers at the deadline despite the fact that sometimes it is what's best for the team. I'm not saying that's what's best this year, but it might have helped if they had been in previous years. Of course rebuilds don't always work either (look at Edmonton and Arizona who always seem to be rebuilding). Scouting, drafting, and player development are crucial and the Habs are below average to average at best in those departments. Of course this is all just my opinion and I'm no expert. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Yup, Habs have simply ben mediocre many of past 20 some years, never bad enough for a #1 pick, nor have the long-term philosophy to tank any season. Not to mention that; riots would occur, coaches would be tarred and feathered, Molson beer would be boycotted if Habs had 2 or 3 terrible seasons in a row, or were sellers at deadline when had a slim chance to just make playoffs (let alone contend). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Rebuild? Did I miss something? I've seen this team re-tool, but never a rebuild. A rebuild starts with tearing it down to the studs and starting fresh. I haven't seen that from the Canadiens...ever. Chicago, Los Angeles, and Pittsburgh (3 of last 4 Stanley Cup champs in the past 7 years) have built there cores through high draft picks because of a proper rebuild. Rebuilds are painful and typically mean that the team will miss the playoffs for a few years. Habs are rarely sellers at the deadline despite the fact that sometimes it is what's best for the team. I'm not saying that's what's best this year, but it might have helped if they had been in previous years. Of course rebuilds don't always work either (look at Edmonton and Arizona who always seem to be rebuilding). Scouting, drafting, and player development are crucial and the Habs are below average to average at best in those departments. Of course this is all just my opinion and I'm no expert. Please take the time to look at what BOb Gainey said when he took over. Same with Bergevin. the top pick we have had is Price 5th. When I said rebuild i meant the last 20 years, unless i missed a cup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Yup, Habs have simply ben mediocre many of past 20 some years, never bad enough for a #1 pick, nor have the long-term philosophy to tank any season. Not to mention that; riots would occur, coaches would be tarred and feathered, Molson beer would be boycotted if Habs had 2 or 3 terrible seasons in a row, or were sellers at deadline when had a slim chance to just make playoffs (let alone contend). That about sums up the situation in MTL right there... Top pick has been Galchenyuk at #3 Habs Rule Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Even if we finish last, there is no gaurantee of getting the 1st pick. I look at a rebuild when you blow things up. What would you call gainey's gomer Pyle plan, rebuild on the fly. It was a horrible rebuild plan, but was a rebuild. We than had another rebuild, when gauthier decided its a good idea to fire an assistant coach pregame and a player during the game. That got us Galchenyuk. You could go for an oilers rebuild that doesn't end. That about sums up the situation in MTL right there... Top pick has been Galchenyuk at #3 Habs Rule Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Yup, Habs have simply ben mediocre many of past 20 some years, never bad enough for a #1 pick 2012 called, wonders why you forgot about her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 That about sums up the situation in MTL right there... Top pick has been Galchenyuk at #3 Habs Rule You are correct, my bad. I consider Price to be the best pick we have made in at least 20 years. The thing with Les Boys is we have to have a better GM than anyone else cause we can't tank. It is against the law for this team to for be bad for a number of years. We put ourselves into a situation where we are disadvantaged. We can't finish last, the coach and GM have to speak french and be better than anyone else. We must have a respectable team every year, which we accomplish. We make the playoffs most years, and cannot build through the draft cause our draft choices are in the 20 to 30 range. It is a self fulfilling prophecy that drives me nuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Don and Habs Rule, I think you guys are right, best we can hope for is 2nd rd picks like PK, and 5th rd picks like Gallagher, and those are both pretty rare... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Consistent Mediocrity makes for tougher drafting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 I never believed in the 'tank,' precisely because it ensures years of suckage with no guarantees of a Cup at the end of it. Most fans who call for a tank will be turning on the organization after a couple of years of pain. They're not serious. As far as 'rebuild,' Gainey Phase 1.0 was clearly that. But terminology is irrelevant. Basically, this team has a clutch of key players who have been brought along internally and are now in, or entering, their primes. This year and maybe the next few represent the culmination of this particular generation of Habs. Calling that a 'rebuild' or not isn't worth worrying about IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 (edited) It is difficult to build through the draft when the scouting/drafting and development is below average to average at best. The Detroit Red Wings don't seem to have any problems finding gems in the draft despite drafting late in each round year after year. They also do a great job developing their youngsters by not rushing them to the NHL before they are ready. 1990 was the last time the Wings missed the playoffs. They have had two top 15 pick in the draft since then (Dylan Larkin, Martin Lapointe) and have won 4 Stanley Cups. Jurco, Marchenko, Larkin, Sheahan, Mrazek, Tatar, Pulkkinen, Nyquist, Smith, Andersson, Kindl, Abdelkader, Helm, Franzen, Howard, Quincey, Ericsson, Kronwall, Zetterberg, and Datsyuk are all Wings picks chosen after #15 that are still playing with the team today. Glendening and DeKeyser were undrafted free agents that were signed and developed by the Wings that are on the current roster. I haven't even named the prospects that are in the system or the players that are no longer with the team. Those are pretty impressive results. They have had some misses and some players that haven't reached their potential just like any other team, but this occurs very infrequently compared to other teams and more specifically the Habs. When you have top notch scouting and developing you can fill a lot of holes on your roster from within and you have plenty of trade bait to make your team better. Only 4 first rounders (Thomas McCollum, Maxim Kuznetsov, Yan Golubovsky, Jesse Wallin) since 1990 have played less than 300 NHL games and only one (Curtis Bowen) didn't play a single game in the NHL. Of course I didn't include recent picks that are still developing. My point is that the Habs need to do a better job in the scouting and development departments to have long term success. It's a big reason why this team is struggling right now, and until it is addressed, why they will continue to be a hot and cold team for years to come. Edited January 14, 2016 by John B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 It is difficult to build through the draft when the scouting/drafting and development is below average to average at best. The Detroit Red Wings don't seem to have any problems finding gems in the draft despite drafting late in each round year after year. They also do a great job developing their youngsters by not rushing them to the NHL before they are ready. 1990 was the last time the Wings missed the playoffs. They have had two top 15 pick in the draft since then (Dylan Larkin, Martin Lapointe) and have won 4 Stanley Cups. Jurco, Marchenko, Larkin, Sheahan, Mrazek, Tatar, Pulkkinen, Nyquist, Smith, Andersson, Kindl, Abdelkader, Helm, Franzen, Howard, Quincey, Ericsson, Kronwall, Zetterberg, and Datsyuk are all Wings picks chosen after #15 that are still playing with the team today. Glendening and DeKeyser were undrafted free agents that were signed and developed by the Wings that are on the current roster. I haven't even named the prospects that are in the system or the players that are no longer with the team. Those are pretty impressive results. They have had some misses and some players that haven't reached their potential just like any other team, but this occurs very infrequently compared to other teams and more specifically the Habs. When you have top notch scouting and developing you can fill a lot of holes on your roster from within and you have plenty of trade bait to make your team better. Only 4 first rounders (Thomas McCollum, Maxim Kuznetsov, Yan Golubovsky, Jesse Wallin) since 1990 have played less than 300 NHL games and only one (Curtis Bowen) didn't play a single game in the NHL. Of course I didn't include recent picks that are still developing. My point is that the Habs need to do a better job in the scouting and development departments to have long term success. It's a big reason why this team is struggling right now, and until it is addressed, why they will continue to be a hot and cold team for years to come. Absolutely, drafting and player development are huge keys. I'm not sure our record in this regard is that bad - we too are a team that hardly ever misses the playoffs, year after year, and our key players are internally developed. Subban, a franchise defenceman, was a 2nd rounder; Gallagher, a serious candidate for Team Canada, a 5th rounder. But in any case, your analysis is basically spot-on IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Agreed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Timmins has a weak first round record and one of the best overall draft records. Even with the weak first round drafting, more Timmins drafted players have played NHL games than any other scout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 MoLG you missed my "many" of past 20 yrs or so. I didn't forget about Galchenyuk and Price fell in our lap with lucky lottery. The trading away of picks at deadlines for scrubs like Sopel, Mara and the like haven't helped neither playoff success nor on draft day. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 MoLG you missed my "many" of past 20 yrs or so. I didn't forget about Galchenyuk and Price fell in our lap with lucky lottery. The trading away of picks at deadlines for scrubs like Sopel, Mara and the like haven't helped neither playoff success nor on draft day. Indeed. It also didn't help to hold on to Sheldon Souray when he was a 20-goal defenceman, despite having zero chance to win the Cup and despite the sure knowledge that he would walk as a UFA. I agree that you have to, at some point, 'go for it' (within reason) and add key bits in order to make a run, even if it costs you some youth or picks. But this is yet another area where I think a lot of fans are hypocritical. 99% of the time, when you do that, you still fail to win the Cup. And thereafter, fans don't remember that you 'went for it' (despite the fact that this is exactly what they themselves were demanding); instead they bitch about the prospect pool being thin, attack you for bad drafting, etc.. Arguably, this is exactly what Markdown Marc is trying to avoid - compromising the future for short-term gain of uncertain value. And for this, he's increasingly being pilloried as a do-nothing GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 I'd rather fail for the Cup than wait for the Cup when: - Price is 27, keeps getting hurt and has only two years at $6.5M left - Pacioretty is 26, just became captain with three years left at $4.5M - Galchenyuk is going to need a new contract next year far higher than his current $2.8M cap hit - Markov is 36 and has maybe one more year left to give to the club before we're searching for a 20+ minute left handed D to take his place - P.K. Subban is 26 years old and has been blessed with great health, which isn't going to be the case forever. We just spent three years proving we are a definite playoff team. It's now time to prove we're Cup contenders. By the time Juulsen reaches 22, the Cup window might be closed and we're back to rebuilding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 (edited) I agree Don. Trading away picks for useless players at the deadline doesn't make much sense to me either. It also doesn't make sense to hang on to players that aren't essential to the teams success now or in the future when the team has very little chance of winning in the playoffs. I'm not saying that this year they don't have a chance of winning, I'm talking about past years. I know I'm reaching a bit here, but stay with me. I look back at the 2006-07 season and wonder if the Habs missed an opportunity to really improve this club. The Canadiens already had drafted Price in 2005 and he was coming off a spectacular performance at the WJC for Canada and was having a great season in Tri-City. No doubt he was going to be special. The Habs were bubble playoff team for the majority of that season and leading up to the trade deadline. Even if they would have snuck into the playoffs (which they missed) they would have been trounced in the first round. The roster had 8 potential UFAs and a number of underachievers. Were they sellers or buyers at the deadline? Hard to say. The only trade they made was Craig Rivet (1 of the 8 UFAs) to SJ for Gorges and a 1st rounder (Pacioretty). Not exactly a move that says your making a playoff push, nor a move that says your selling. Markov ended up being the only one of the 7 UFAs to resign and the rest left for nothing. Considering the Habs got a 1st and Gorges for Rivet, imagine what they could have gotten for Souray (who was leading all defenseman in goals at the time of the trade deadline if I'm not mistaken) or Markov (who finished the season with 49 points). It was pretty well known that the Habs weren't going to be able to resign both, yet the elected to hang on to them. For what? A chance to get destroyed in the first round of the playoffs? Another interesting trade that year was Alexei Zhitnik to Atlanta for Braydon Coburn. Atlanta was going all in and willing to deal picks and prospects on their way to their first (and only) playoff birth in franchise history. Zhitnik was playing on the 3rd pair for Philly. Coburn was young defenseman drafted 8th overall 3 years earlier. Habs could likely have traded Souray to Atlanta for a better return. Just noticed as I typed all this that CC made a similar post about Souray. Glad I'm not the only one who was thinking it. Edited January 14, 2016 by John B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.