Koivu

[PMAC]

This should be required reading for all of the "experts" who claim Montreal doesnt have a "true" first line center

Captain K leads Canadiens past rudderless Leafs

Canadiens 5, Leafs 4;

RED FISHER The Gazette October 10, 2005

You can introduce gimmicks such as the shootout, allow a two-line pass, throw an armlock on what goaltenders can wear and how far they can wander from their crease, initiate zero tolerance on obstruction tactics (for now) in the new, warm "My NHL" - but there's only one constant that truly matters: leadership.

<font size=3><a href="http://www.canada.com/sports/hockey/canadiensstory.html?id=93030ac4-03c4-40be-84b5-6b849bafd1d3" target=_blank">Read More...</a></font size>

<b>Admin Edit: </b>Do not post full copyrighted articles. You are only allowed to post a small sample, then you can post a link to the rest of the article. But thanks for posting the article, its a good one.

[Edited on 2005-10-10 by puck7x]

[Howie_Morenz]

Originally posted by PMAC

Then, of course, you had defenceman Ken Klee telling Toronto media people: "We beat ourselves. We made bad mistakes at the wrong times." (Forgive the poor soul for speaking with a forked tongue, because he knows nothing about what he speaks.)

PMAC, very good post. :clap:

I really like the part of the post quoted above. Ken Klee is an average defenseman. Montreal Kicked A$$ Klee because you are not good enough. Along with Berg and Belak, you have the makings of a sad defence.

What did Toronto spend their money on this year? Oh yea I forgot Belfour (hahahahahahahaha) and Sundin (I would keep him) and Domi (Hahahahahahahaha).

Koivu made a mad dash from behind the Montreal net, brought the puck into Toronto's end with a fabulous move. He is also playing with intensity and will score. He is a premier centre!

[Edited on 2005/10/10 by Howie_Morenz]

[simonus]

you can't post that here. It is copyrighted material.

[Leafs Suck]

Has Aki Berg found his jock yet? cuz Saku sure deked him out of it on Saturday!

[habsfan88]

koivu is an underrated player. if he had the size of bertuzzi he'd run the league.

[JLP]

red's a classic sportswriter, steps up with a great story on Koivu.

Ok, a heads up from Simonus about copyright, maybe could be called foul if the Gazette pushed but wtf it was attributed and sourced to Gazette where it is freely available so having it here saves them bandwidth, I think the way it was done presents no problem but for safety sake you are right PMAC you should just put a link to the story rather than doing the cut 'n paste, these are paranoid times.

(If I got a dollar every time one of my stories was picked up I'd be able to buy you all a round, but whatever...)

Go Habs Go!

[~moeman]

Congrats to our fearless Captain Koivu. 500th game, 400th point, all class. One of my faves.

[CoRvInA]

Grande KOIVU... there isnt a team in the NHL who wouldnt want Koivu on their's

If we could only clone a couple more!!

:bow::hlogo:

[Edited on 2005/10/10 by CoRvInA]

[Colin]

And his best leadership plays weren't even with the puck. Behind the Habs net, after they fell down a goal, he hammered some poor Leaf. Firing up the boys. THAT is leadership.

Best part is we didn't see Koivu at his best. There's still more to come.

[Psycing]

Originally posted by Guy!

And his best leadership plays weren't even with the puck.  Behind the Habs net, after they fell down a goal, he hammered some poor Leaf.  Firing up the boys.  THAT is leadership.

Best part is we didn't see Koivu at his best.  There's still more to come.

Aahhh, finally someone else who remembers that hit. Heh, loved that, creamed him! (But wasn't it behind the Leafs' net? and didn't the Domi goal happen just seconds later?

Or maybe, we are thinking of 2 different hits.

[shortcat1]

Originally posted by Guy!

And his best leadership plays weren't even with the puck.  Behind the Habs net, after they fell down a goal, he hammered some poor Leaf.  Firing up the boys.  THAT is leadership.

Best part is we didn't see Koivu at his best.  There's still more to come.

And I'm looking forward to that. When the first line starts to score, we'll be an even more formidable team.

:hlogo::ghg::hlogo:

[Lister100]

"And his best leadership plays weren't even with the puck. Behind the Habs net, after they fell down a goal, he hammered some poor Leaf. Firing up the boys. THAT is leadership"

I'm pretty sure that poor Leaf was Domi too! hahaha

[PMAC]

Originally posted by simonus

you can't post that here.  It is copyrighted material.

Ah, Grasshopper, but I can.

The fair use provisions of copyright law allow limited copies of an article to be distributed in an educational setting for the edification of those involved and what I was doing was using Red's Article to further enlighten the faithful as to Koivu's gifts.

If that argument doesn't wash, how about this: Fairuse Guidelines are open to interpertation and I believe that my limited use of this article falls under that provision because I used it in a limited forum--in a not for profit way-- and my actions were unlikely to cause financial, or other harm, either to the Gazette or Mr. Fisher. The only way there would be a problem is if the Gazette disagreed with my interpertation; they would ask the Fourum to stop allowing such posts. In such a circumstance the Mods would have to ban such posts or face the possiblity of legal action.

See the link below for further information

http://fairuse.stanford.edu/index.html

Copyright law is not so cut and dried as you seem to think and Internet posts are even more of a grey area.

[Edited on 2005/10/11 by PMAC]

[simonus]

you didn't post a partial copy of the article. You posted the entire thing.

If I were the Gazette I would argue that you were causing me financial harm. You are depriving me of site-traffic, ad revenue,and are distributing my works in an unapproved forum which might contain conent that I do not want my works to be associated with.

Internet posting is certainly a gray area, but more as a jurisdictional issue. See Pavlovich v. Superior Court, 29 Cal. 4th 262.

Note for instance 17 U.S.C.A. § 107, which determines fair use rights by balancing the following factors.

"(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work."

Courts are generally unimpressed by claims of innocuous intent. See Mitcham v. Board of Regents, University of Texas Systems, 670 S.W.2d 371, which specifically states "Wholesale or extensive verbatim copying cannot be regarded as "fair use" of copyrighted material, regardless of intention of infringer."

You are correct that educational applications of fair use are partially protected. People v. Szarvas, 191 Cal.Rptr. 117. However that protection is limited by Mitcham.

Now, it is difficult to calculate (4) the effect of this use on the potential market for the Gazette. This article was available free of charge online! However, as stated above, the Gazette would be able to argue that the fact that this document was available for free is indicative that the value lost fom copyright-infringment is not directly calculated by lost revenue from publication sales. It's losses are such as named earlier.

Frankly, I don't think the Gazette would have a slam dunk case, and my analysis extends only to american common law, it is my understanding that the Quebec Civil Code is not as liberal in its fair use doctrine, but I have no informed knowlege about that issue, which is the easiest forum into which to be hailed.

[PMAC]

Which was my point... the Gazette, if they felt site traffic was an issue, would be much more likely to ask for such a practise to stop. In which case, such posts would be deleted or banned---the end. Only if they objected and HW and its members continued the practice would it come to a court case. Such an eventuality is more unlikely in Canada than in the US.

Anyway, I usually prefer to voice my own opinion's but sometimes Red's expression is hard to beat:)

[simonus]

Originally posted by PMAC

Which was my point... the Gazette, if they felt site traffic was an issue, would be much more likely to ask for such a practise to stop. In which case,  such posts would be deleted or banned---the end. Only if they objected and HW and its members continued the practice would it come to a court case. Such an eventuality is more unlikely in Canada than in the US.

all very true. For many reasons any possible action would almost certainly be preceded by a 'cease and desist', I apologize for my earlier post. When I get into these kind of issues I tend to do hypothetical thought experiments, there is no plausible harmful effect of the original post.

BTW - very right about the cease and desist scenario being even more likely in Canada, as the case is not very clear and loser pays court fees in Canada (which is a huge factor in it being a less litigious society).

[shortcat1]

You guys are arguing a copyright case based upon American rulings (the Stanford fairuse position and the Pavlovich v. Superior Court, 29 Cal. 4th 262 position.

Since the Gazette is a Canadian paper. Wouldn't the copyright decisions be based upon Canadian standards (are there distinct Canadian standards or are they 'universal')?

By the way, in the case of Canadian standards, I have no idea of what those are.

[simonus]

well, in canada it is always difficult because Quebec has the civil code and the rest of canada uses common law. Suffice it to say that it is possible that depending on if you get sued in Ontario or Quebec, the result could be very different.

In such matters as defining fair use, it is usually safe to say that at least 9 provinces are probably pretty similar the 'american' standard.

[PMAC]

Thanks for an interesting discussion Simonous. It actually did me good to read the rules that I tend to skirt around

Shortcat: the international copyright laws are very similar around the world. If I'm not mistaken the WTO has been flexing its muscles on this issue. In the UAE right now, there is strict crackdown on the sale of pirated videos and music which were sold quite openly just a few years ago.

And, NOOOW.... back to hockey

First loss of the season :puke:

[shortcat1]

thanks pmac. i figured that the regulations would likely be 'universal' but wasn't really sure because of the different jurisdictions and their desire for autonomy.

[simonus]

well there is a certain degree of universality to the rules, but the devil (and thus lawsuits) are in the details,and this is were jurisdictions can have different rules and different interpretation of those rules.