Ryder Overrated

[Drivefor25]

Maybe I was a little to harsh in saying shut your mouth. I just get all jacked up when I hear people saying that we should trade one of our most potent weapons. I mean if the kid can put up 30 goals, powerplay or not, with a bad back, imagine what he would of done healthy.

As for the arbitration issue, I don't recall who said but they raised a very good point in stating that just because a player elects to go to an arbitrator doesn't necesarily mean he wants out. What it means is he wants to see what an outsider, a neutral party, feels he's worth in regards to his overall output. As I said earlier i feel the ryder deserves every penny he was awarded and he will not dissapoint.

To Kozed, I do apologise again for saying shut up, there was no malicious intent. I just get so emotional about the Bleu Blanc and Rouge that I loose sight of what I say at times!

Maybe his agent is a hardballer.

The Key word or phrase here is " Agent "

If I'm not mistaken isn't his agent Don Meehan??? If that be the case, he does have the rep of being a very shrewd negotiator, almost the likes of Peter Pocklington

[KoZed]

Well, first of all I agree with KoZed. Everyone has a right to their opinion, its the beauty of our north american right to freedom of speech

Yeah, North-American freedom of speech!

Sorry to all you HabsWorld users in Europe that dont get to say what you want!

To Kozed, I do apologise again for saying shut up, there was no malicious intent. I just get so emotional about the Bleu Blanc and Rouge that I loose sight of what I say at times

No problem man. That's why I'm here for. To moderate people's emotions!

Call me ProZac!

Plus is he not on a 1 year contract? What team is going to give up a say "Lecavier" for him when they can just sign him next year?

AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Sorry. Inside joke for the old timers. Carry on...

[Strummerman]

Yeah, North-American freedom of speech!

Sorry to all you HabsWorld users in Europe that dont get to say what you want!

No problem man. That's why I'm here for. To moderate people's emotions!

Call me ProZac!

AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Sorry. Inside joke for the old timers. Carry on...

I can not believe that people wanna trade Ryder. Those clowns at RDS have their followers. Ryder has improved every year. His stats keep going up. In fact he was doing better when he was not on the same line with Koivu. Ryder is way underpaid. He should have gone to arbitration and if Dumont got almost 3 million for 20 goals what would Ryder have gotten with 30 goals. Ryder and Higgins finally made opposing defence shake instead of the opposite as waves of opposing forwards would swarm over our defence. I say let's sign Dumont as well. The more the merrier

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

It's also worth remembering that similar criticisms are ALWAYS directed at pure goal scorers. Brett Hull, one of the all-time greats, had to hear year after year that he was questionable defensively, didn't skate fast, etc.; so did the unbelievable Mike Bossy, for God's sake. Any goal scorer - at least if he isn't a power forward - gets this. What I find odd is that nobody attacks a checking forward as 'one dimensional' because he can't score goals ('all he does is shut the opposition down' is high praise, but 'all he does is score goals,' well holy cow, drum him out of town).

Now I'm not saying Ryder is in the same league as Bossy and Hull. But that's the TYPE of player he is: invisible until the puck is in the net. A team that can't make room for at least one guy like that, that's a team that's off its beam.

Edited August 11, 2006 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Drivefor25]

I can not believe that people wanna trade Ryder. Those clowns at RDS have their followers. Ryder has improved every year. His stats keep going up. In fact he was doing better when he was not on the same line with Koivu. Ryder is way underpaid. He should have gone to arbitration and if Dumont got almost 3 million for 20 goals what would Ryder have gotten with 30 goals. Ryder and Higgins finally made opposing defence shake instead of the opposite as waves of opposing forwards would swarm over our defence. I say let's sign Dumont as well. The more the merrier

you are quite right strummerman, the more the merrier, but will you pay dumonts salary??? We have to keep in mind that there is a cap in place as well as the fact that we need to assume that latendresse or chipchura will start the year here, Gainey said he's leaving a spot open for a rookie.

[Nilan]

Its too bad that some have got to knock on Ryder to temper those who overrate him.

Ryder is overrated when fans starts saying he should have been invited to Team Canada's camp for the Olympics. Ryder is overrated when fans expect him to be 1st-line caliber winger or compare him to top goal scorers in the league.

Ryder is not just "limited", he's very limited. Aside from his shooting, he's very average in all other aspects of the game: average playmaking, average skating, average hitting, average defense, etc.

Of course his goal-scoring is welcomed. That's basically the only reason he's in the lineup because he brings little else. But he won't be able to hold on his spot on the Habs for long once younger, more complete kids starts challenging him.

30-something goals is nice. But 30-something goals when goals is your sole contribution is a bare minimum. Pure snipers who only score goals (someone mentionned Hull and Bure) have to go up in the near 40-50's to be considered dangerous.

30 goals isnt all that great people. Guys like Andy McDonald, Mike Knuble, Jere Lethinen, Marek Svatos, Mike Sillinger, Petr Prucha all scored more or as many goals as last season and those guys are rarely talked about as fearsome snipers. 5-7, 175 lbs Brian Gionta, whose the same age as Ryder, came out of nowhere and scored 48 goals last year. 20-years old Patrice Bergeron scored 31 goals with basically no offensive support.

Ryder is a Mark Parrish/Fredrik Modin type of guy. Nice depth scoring when you can count on other, better top forwards. With so many young guns with better overall potential in the system, if Ryder wants to stick in Montreal in the long run he'll either have to increase his goals output or develop a more complete game. Habs will have too much forward talent to keep carrying a powerplay specialist around.

Kozed

Im all for expressing strong opinions here, but I think you've touched a nerve. The guy has only two years under his belt, and doesnt just score goals, but tends to score BIG goals. Until someone else stands up, I cant quite understand the "ooooo, he better watch out for his job" mentality. Proof's in the pudding.

I do agree that he might not be a first line winger on many teams - although until Higgins came along Ryder clearly worked best with our top line center...

Can't we instead focus our efforts on ragging on Ribiero?

[Strummerman]

you are quite right strummerman, the more the merrier, but will you pay dumonts salary??? We have to keep in mind that there is a cap in place as well as the fact that we need to assume that latendresse or chipchura will start the year here, Gainey said he's leaving a spot open for a rookie.

I know we have a cap. The rookies will be paid the minimum. How much is Downey being paid anyways lol

[KoZed]

I can not believe that people wanna trade Ryder. Those clowns at RDS have their followers.

Unless Ryder suddenly became officilay untouchable or a franchise player, I dont see why those who see him as trade bait deserves to be labeled as "RDS-clowns followers".

If you like Ryder and want him to be a Habs forever, that's all good. But for crissake stop getting all hostile like he was your little sister's virginity.

[Strummerman]

Unless Ryder suddenly became officilay untouchable or a franchise player, I dont see why those who see him as trade bait deserves to be labeled as "RDS-clowns followers".

If you like Ryder and want him to be a Habs forever, that's all good. But for crissake stop getting all hostile like he was your little sister's virginity.

Umm okay I would trade Ryder for Crosby or Ovechkin or even Iginla. I doubt that will happen. Yeah lets use him as trade bait. Let's get rid of the goal scorer, who needs goal scorers. We have had goal scoreers that have had close to 40 goals every year for the last 15 years. Yeah lets attack and deride Ryder like the RDs bozos cause he scores goals. What we need is a good big forward with cement hands.

Put Ryder on a line with Crosby and he will get 50 there is no doubt in my mind

[KoZed]

Im all for expressing strong opinions here, but I think you've touched a nerve. The guy has only two years under his belt, and doesnt just score goals, but tends to score BIG goals. Until someone else stands up, I cant quite understand the "ooooo, he better watch out for his job" mentality. Proof's in the pudding.

I never said Ryder was useless. I also dont think he's untouchable or a vital building block. There's a large margin between both ends of that spectrum and Ryder falls somewhere in there. He does have his use and like you say, proof's in the pudding. He wouldn't be in the lineup if he didnt earn his place. Which, incidently, applies to Ribs as well.

But although Ryder has two years under his belt, he's still closing in on 27 yrs old so he's no spring chicken. So being already advanced in age and still having holes in his game does make him vulnerable to prospects. Higgins and Plekanec, for example, have just broke in the league last year and are both already more polished overall than Ryder. And there's still more kids coming up.

I'm not saying this because I think Ryder should be traded, I'm saying this because Ryder could be traded simply to make room for a better forward grown within the organization.

In other words: Ryder is expandable.

Can't we instead focus our efforts on ragging on Ribiero?

Why would it be "OK" to rag on Ribeiro but "not OK" to talk about trading Ryder? Where does this selective taboo comes from? Who decides which player is "scapegoat" and which one is "off limits"? Do we get to vote or does this comes from a higher power above?

Personnaly, I think no player is off limits. We all have our favorite players, but our loyalty should be in the team first and in our fellow Habs fans second. Accept other's opinions on the players even if you disagree.

Keep the spite for Leafs fans.

PS: I'll dropkick anyone who rags on Steve Bégin! Bégin is God!

[Drivefor25]

PS: I'll dropkick anyone who rags on Steve Bégin! Bégin is God!

Subtle very subtle kozed

[Strummerman]

Higgins and Plekanec did not socre 25 goals in their first season and may I add did not win a Cup in the AHL as Ryder did. They are younger and there is a good chance they will be stars soon. Till they do I will keep an underpaid goal scorer who at 27 is in his prime.

As for Begin talk about someone's sister's virginity

[KoZed]

did not win a Cup in the AHL as Ryder did. (...)

As for Begin talk about someone's sister's virginity

When or what Cup are you refering to? You mean 1st team overall in the reg season?

Big whoop... Steve Begin was AHL playoffs MVP!

[Strummerman]

When or what Cup are you refering to? You mean 1st team overall in the reg season?

Big whoop... Steve Begin was AHL playoffs MVP!

I meant first place and Ryder had a great playoffs as well. Too bad Begin didn't keep up his goal scoring in the NHL unlike Ryder. Role players are wondeful, but a role player is a role player. Begin became a liability on the first or second line. Ryder can play on any line and he is still Ryder the one that scores goals in the NHL not the AHL.

[House11]

PooP

[Strummerman]

PooP

and on that articulate note im going to bed

[Huckleberry]

Ryder is a vitale aspect of our team.

If he repeats his second year, while playing with a bad back, I would be pleased.

[shortcat1]

Ryder is a vitale aspect of our team.

If he repeats his second year, while playing with a bad back, I would be pleased.

Amen, Huck, amen............

:king: :hlogo: :king:

[bar]

I love the way Ryder plays, and since I live in the Maritimes I sort of view him as one of my own.

One thing I'd like to bring up, is the idea of '1st line winger' or '1st line centre', I believe that in the new NHL those terms will be erased. As Buffalo did with their scoring LINES, I think it'll be a platoon system going forth instead of putting all their eggs in one basket.

I mean, why is there no talk of Higgins being over rated, or Kovolev (just a note..I like all the havs players, even Ribs), why do people write our top goal scorer off as not a '1st line winger'?

In his 2 years in the NHL he's only improved, theres NO reason that dictates that he wont improve this coming season.

I just understand a lot of peoples trade mentality. We have a player that works where he is, you willing to gamble on someone who is better coming in and maybe netting 40 goals? Or would you rather stick with someone who has proved he can net 30?

I'm just saddened at all the negativity surrounding these forums, when we should be hopelessly optimistic for the upcoming season.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Well, I don't think we should abdicate all critical sense. If you think a player sucks, you should say so - look how much animated and at leats half-intelligent discussion the mere statement that Ryder is overrated produced.

As for the end of the distinction between lines, well, this IS the direction the Habs seem to be taking; but nothing will ever remove the distinction between a line composed of Spezza, Heatly, and Alfredsson and (say) a line of Ribeiro, Downey and Youppi. Talking about 'first line talent' is really just a way of saying we need players a cut above the ones we have now. And I think this is true in the case of C and D - we still need a #1A C and a #1A defenceman.

We could just say Ryder is a second-tier forward rather than a first...maybe that would solve your problem.

[KoZed]

Well, I don't think we should abdicate all critical sense. If you think a player sucks, you should say so - look how much animated and at leats half-intelligent discussion the mere statement that Ryder is overrated produced.

Well said!

Talking about 'first line talent' is really just a way of saying we need players a cut above the ones we have now.

When I think about "1st line talent", I think about players in the top 20 of the league at their position and that get close to or more than a point per game in average.

We could just say Ryder is a second-tier forward rather than a first...maybe that would solve your problem.

I'd think that's about right. But I guess you'll still find some people to complain about what a second-tier forward means.

[Nilan]

When I think about "1st line talent", I think about players in the top 20 of the league at their position and that get close to or more than a point per game in average.

guess that leaves about 70 first liners in the NHL as not first line talent in your books at any given time.

[lazy26]

When I think about "1st line talent", I think about players in the top 20 of the league at their position and that get close to or more than a point per game in average.

guess that leaves about 70 first liners in the NHL as not first line talent in your books at any given time.

Unless he meant the top 20 at each position... i.e., top 20 LW, top 20 C, and top 20 RW... That leaves 30 off the list, and I can accept that. Some teams lack the talent, and are forced to give a second liner first line duties.

If you go by points, Ryder was 27th among rightwingers (Kovy was 17th), and doesn't met that criteria... On the other hand, he was 17th among rightwingers in goals.

[KoZed]

Unless he meant the top 20 at each position... i.e., top 20 LW, top 20 C, and top 20 RW... That leaves 30 off the list, and I can accept that. Some teams lack the talent, and are forced to give a second liner first line duties.

Yes, that's what I meant. Top 15-20 at each position, though with wingers you maybe expand to top 30-40, regardless if RW or LW. And for D-men you could say top 15-20 for #1 D's and maybe top 30-40 for 1st-pair D's.

If you go by points, Ryder was 27th among rightwingers (Kovy was 17th), and doesn't met that criteria... On the other hand, he was 17th among rightwingers in goals.

Absolute points isnt as telling as points-per-game average. Kovy would probably crack the top 15 on PPG avg, since he missed some games.

guess that leaves about 70 first liners in the NHL as not first line talent in your books at any given time.

20 guys at every position = 60 guys. That would actually mean that about a a third of guys playing on the 1st line in the NHL are not really 1st line material. Although "1st line" is more of figure of speech than an actual 1st line. Lines are based more on chemistry than talent level.

[ehjay]

What I find odd is that nobody attacks a checking forward as 'one dimensional' because he can't score goals ('all he does is shut the opposition down' is high praise, but 'all he does is score goals,' well holy cow, drum him out of town).

Now I'm not saying Ryder is in the same league as Bossy and Hull. But that's the TYPE of player he is: invisible until the puck is in the net. A team that can't make room for at least one guy like that, that's a team that's off its beam.

could that be cuz the Habs have been a 'defensive' minded team almost as far back as most can remember (cuz a lot of us have a memory like a goldfish: 7 seconds ) and as far as the Bossy or Hull comparison goes I really like Ryder one of the only guys on the team in 03-04 to drive the net, one of the only guys on the team in 05-06 to never hear an excuse of how he is hurting and can't play to his best all year and sure he has flaws in his game but if anyone beleives that he is a Lemieux then why do they figure he was drafted so late, cuz there are no scouts in the ECHL? Or cuz no team in the big league needs a 30 goal scorer in his 2nd year in the league? Or better after you become the top scorer on a team in your 2nd yaer you can only get worse?

THE F*** IS WRONG WITH THE PEOPLE THAT THINK THAT S**T is MY question?