lazy26 Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 THE F*** IS WRONG WITH THE PEOPLE THAT THINK THAT S**T is MY question? I'm not sure that's a question... I think Mike'll flesh out his game when he returns healthy, under Carbo's watchful eyes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAK Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 THE F*** IS WRONG WITH THE PEOPLE THAT THINK THAT S**T is MY question? WE'RE F***IN' BORED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athlétique.Canadien Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 Yeah, that's why I changed my sig. I'm bored. I've watched that video habs 2006 on youtube about 10 times now Why not? Go Habs :hlogo: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAK Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 hey I have a red wing vs montreal game in the vcr right now.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koivu-11 Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 My opinion on Ryder is messed up. He can score, but he sucks defensivly he can be better i hope so. Lets hope he gets better and if he can score 40 goals then ill just say hes great so im iffy on him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehjay Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 WE'RE F***IN' BORED okay then, I guess that is as good an excuse as any, but then I hope I can use it too I'm not sure that's a question... sure it is. when you are bored!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortcat1 Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 As I said earlier, 25 to 30 goals in the positive and 5 in the negative still adds up to 20 - 25 in the positive. I'm sure 29 other teams wouldn't sneeze at having him on their roster. So.................., the Ryder bashers.............. just sit back and look at the true value of this guy instead of exercising your bash-lust. :king: :hlogo: :king: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 So.................., the Ryder bashers.............. just sit back and look at the true value of this guy instead of exercising your bash-lust. "Bashing" is a strong word to describe something as neutral as pointing flaws in a player's game in order to better evaluate his value. "Bashing" is more like constant put-downs of a player with little or no explanations, for no purpose other than just, well, bash that guy down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalhabs Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 Ryder is great but maybe he would be better of on an offensive minded team (penguins) than with our team. (headcoach - Carbonneau GM - Gainey both Selke trophy winners) Lets see what Carbo can do with him first though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobRock Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 Jacques Lemaire is one of the most ardent defense-first coaches in the league, and has been since he began his coaching career, but he was never known for his defensive skills as a player. And Carbonneau was a great goal scorer in junior, but was asked to play a checking role on a team that was stacked for scorers when he first arrived in Montreal. Just because he played that way, doesn't mean he'll coach that way. This is his first head coaching position, so we can't say for sure what type of game he'll use on a regular basis. As an assistant coach, he obviously reinforced and taught what the head coach wanted from the players. He could surprise everybody and play a run-and-gun type of game. But with the players on this team, I seriously doubt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 Well, I've argued about this topic so many times that I'm time of it and don't feel like making a long argument but in short, I agree with KoZed. Ryder is a nice guy to have but he doesn't seem to be in our long term plans. He has way too many flaws in his game to ever become a first line player or an impact player. You can't even say he has potential to be better. In fact, I'd have trouble naming a player with less potential than Ryder. As to the people who say Ryder can easily put up goals next to Joe Thornton - well, I can say that Ribeiro can easily put up 75 assists next to Ovechkin and you would laugh at me. But in reality the two statements are basically equivalent. Besides, the fact that someone who needs a superstar to produce isn't the greatest news. When someone does average people say he just needs good linemates but when he does great, they say he sucks and that it was all his linemates. Look at Marc Savard. People value him less after his big season than before it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonus Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 (edited) As I said earlier, 25 to 30 goals in the positive and 5 in the negative still adds up to 20 - 25 in the positive. it doesn't really work that way. Ryder gets credit for 12 of his 30 goals in his +/- score. It still means (for simplicities sake) that when ryder is on the ice at even strength, the opposing team is more likely to score a goal than be scored on. Now this is obviously an only partially illuminating statistic and perhaps one could make some sort of case for adding Ryder's PP + total (probably with some discount) to arrive at some sort of general benefit score for ryder's presence, but your derivation of +25 doesn't hold... at the least it would be giving him double marks for his 12 even strength goals. Now +- is a bit of a lying statistic in that a player's +/- is affected by his linemates. perhaps (and I'm not about to check this out) ryder got more playing time when theo was in goal and got screwed by having a sieve behind him screwing his rating. Maybe he spent much of his ice-time in front of a porous defense core. Maybe he was getting stuck playing against top lines (although for that to be a legitimate argument you'd first have to acknowledge that he is not first line talent). +/- is also a per-game stat and is too often treated much like an average (like on-base percentage.... or SVG) - on espn.com a player who is -9 after 41 games is 'projected' by espn to be a -9 at season's end. Of course this is wrong, if that player played to the same standard for the next 41 games, he'd be a -18. All of this is to say that Bonk's -3 in 61 games is about the same as a full season at -4.... which is statistically indistinguishable from a -5. Sundstrom was a -6 in 55 games - which projects to about -9. Of course Bonk and Sundstrom are playing a trap game against scoring lines and it would not be wholly unreasonable to assume that they could be successful and end up with somewhat negative +/-'s - they are just trying to impede the opposing scoring lines (which is why it might make sense to simply run a 3rd offensive line). That all being said, ryder was 23rd in Habs +/- (markov was 1st, Souray was last). All this says to me is that +/- is a relatively suspect statistic and one should be applied carefully a sparingly. I have certainly been guilty of overusing it... Edited August 13, 2006 by simonus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haberrific Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 I don't care if people think ryder is overrated or not. IMO he was our best scorer, whether it was on the powerplay or not...a goal is a goal. scoring on the poweplay to give your team an advantage is just as good as scoring even strength, especially considering the way the new NHL is layed out. If you put ryder on a line with a playmaker, the bottom line is he will score. Just think about lemieux and kevin stevens, oates and hull, Neely and Janney, Foresberg and hejduk, and even his production tailed off when foresberg headed to philly. The fact is Ryder is our best scorer and he is worth 2.2 mill for sure.Lets not forget that he was up against Raycroft and Trent Hunter for the Calder in 2003-2004, and they both had horrible years last season. I admit Ryders Defense wasnt the greatest in 2005-2006 but does anybody remember his rookie campaign when he hit everything that touched the puck when he forechecked. Maybe his injury had something to do with his reduced physical play last season. If Carbo shows confidence in Ryder this year and Keeps him on a line with Koivu, The 216 pick in the 98 draft will score 40 goals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazy26 Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 Look at Marc Savard. People value him less after his big season than before it. Except for stupid ole Boston! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athlétique.Canadien Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 Except for stupid ole Boston! Yep, that's a dumb contract. Marc Savard is a high level player. But he's not an A level star. He's a B. I guess the B's forgot their name again like with Lapointe. LMAO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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