Terror Plot Thwarted

[Fanpuck33]

As you all are probably aware, a big terror plot was thwarted today. Members of MI-5, Pakinstani intelligence, and US communication monitoring exposed a plot to explode up to 10 planes over the US. A victory for the good guys and further proof that we are winning the war on terror.

And yet, naysayers still blast the administration for not securing the safety of the nation. I guess they forget that the last act of terrorism in the US was 9-11, the very event that set off the war on terror.

I even heard a guy on TV today condemming the US and UK for how they stopped the plot, by monitoring terrorist communication. How can you argue for privacy rights when thousands of lives have just been saved because of it? The person wouldn't even support such monitoring with a warrant! How ridiculous is that? Which is more important: lives or a suspected terrorists privacy?

Heard a good joke about it on Leno, though. "British and US intelligence were just relieved that the NY Times hadn't revealed their current secret operation yet." Hehehe

[shortcat1]

I read a book by a fellow called John Brunner (SF) many years ago... I forget which one... it could be The Sheep Look Up or Stand on Zanzibar.

In any case, terrorists are a big part of the book. The 'terrorists' were not Muslim but environmentalists but the idea is that these underground organizations wreaked havoc throughout the whole of the world's society just like what's going on now. It is, for me, an interesting 'prophetic'-like comment.

I forget how the whole thing ended up but memory says that it didn't end very well (no intentions in sounding dark here).

:king: :hlogo: :king:

[Pierre the Great]

In reality we've already lost.

(i'm going to get killed for this on here but oh well whatever)

Okay 9/11 happend they increased security at the airport.

Shoe bomber tried to blow up his shoes. Now we take them off.

Now these people tried to use 'liquid bombs' so now all liquids are banned.

So whats next? Really. Are we all going to end up having to go naked to airport? This is a never ending battle and the human will (the bad guys) are always and will be more cunning then technology.

For example, cars these days get great realibilty but there is a ceiling to technology and no one can make the 'perfect car'.

That's whats going to happen here. We are pitting technology versus idealogy. Idealogy will always win. If there is a will there is a way.

There are more important things going on in my life then being told someone wants to kill me. Maybe I've been de-sensitized but I just don't care anymore.

[shortcat1]

There is only one way that this 'terrorism' can be defeated is that it becomes isolated even in its own environment. That is that these people are no longer acceptable in their own society.

When (and if) that happens, it'll be diffused. The problem here is that, so far, there are always some who either heart support them or pocket support them. The former are willing to invest in the same fate and the latter are seeing the 'terrorists' as sufficiently 'profitable' so as to continue to financially investing in them.

It'll be an uphill battle for a long time.

:king: :hlogo: :king:

[KoZed]

Personnaly, what I'm thinking is "when terrorists realize airplanes can't work anymore, what will they think of next?"

If you remember back in the 80's it was mostly metro stations that were targetted. Then they moved to aiplanes. What's the next step?

Why aren't they using car bombs in crowded places? Its so easy to pull compared to all those complicated coordinated airplanes and metro stations plots.

If I pull a page out of Billy Martin's book (who was so paranoiac, he used to imagine enemy tactics and invent counter-tactics), if I'm putting myself in some terrorist's shoes, I'd just have something like a dozen of guys with a dozen of car bombs (or better, Oklahoma-style vans) and have all of them detonated around the same time in the same city, near big crowded places. That would have about the same effect as a dozen of missiles falling on the city and almost ruin that city for years.

That's the stuff that scares me. We already know airplanes are dangerous. Its the stuff we dont know or dont think about that will come around and take us with our pants down.

Unless, of course, those terrorists are not that well-organized, imaginative and determined as they're made out to be.

[Pierre the Great]

they won't do easy stuff for some reason for who know's what. British officals basically said they can't stop an attack on the tube, its impossible.

And worse yet this country would turn into a police state all they would have to do is to blow up something in the mid west where all the paranoia is (trust me, people out here think terrorists are hiding in there backyard). Sometimes its as if the terrorists want us to go crazy. Then I think the politicos want us to do the same so they can 'advance there cause' or whatever that is. This is why I ignore them, both sides are attention seekers hell bent on camera time.

[Fanpuck33]

Why aren't they using car bombs in crowded places? Its so easy to pull compared to all those complicated coordinated airplanes and metro stations plots.

I've often wondered that. Timothy McVeigh proved that blowing up half a building is easily done.

But no matter what, that doesn't negate the fact that no attack has happened on US soil since 9-11. Terrorists haven't been able to hijack anymore planes. They haven't been able to get their hands on nuclear weapons. In order for terrorists to win, they have to put fear in the hearts of the general public. I am always prepared for the fact that another attack could happen, but I am in no way worried about an attack and I am certainly not frightened.

[KoZed]

There is only one way that this 'terrorism' can be defeated is that it becomes isolated even in its own environment. That is that these people are no longer acceptable in their own society.

Yes, but how do you come around to isolate them?

History already showed that direct fighting doesn't work. Victims of collateral damage get so grief-stricken they'll join the terrorists or sympathetize more with them just to get revenge. Case and point is Lebanese and Hezbollah. Lot of people in Lebanon (not all Muslims mind you) has gained sympathy over time for Hezbollah because they were seen as a force of resistance against the Israeli invaders.

Not to mention that lot of those terrorists organization often also serve as States-within-the-State by funding and running basic necessities like schools, hospitals, mosques, etc. They have deep roots in their community and can therefore better endoctrinate youths.

On top of that, the highly religious factor of those organizations makes it improbable to replace their influence with a strictly secular socialist State (in the strongly investments in social agencies). Such a government would have to be supported by the Muslims leaders. So how do you achieve that without ending up with another Iran-clone?

Besides, what people are forgetting is that those terrorists that were arrested lately are people who have been here in Western countries for quite some time. We're not talking about people coming over from some desert. We're talking about people who've been living here for quite some years already, if not born and raised here.

[Pierre the Great]

In order for terrorists to win, they have to put fear in the hearts of the general public.

Then in that case they've already 'won'. Paranoia runs rampent down here. Its silly what I've heard people say.

I think they haven't gone the car bomb route because I think its beneath them like it wouldn't get our attention. They keep trying to use 9/11 as a tool which is outdated because they got lucky on that day. So they keep trying to one up it. Hence when they called off that subway strike in new york they didn't think it would cause 'enough' damage.

I think it has to do with where the people are coming from. I don't know to many 'radicalized muslims' (I've got muslim friends) even though I do know a bunch of radicalized christians and jews but thats beside the point.

For instance the big local mosque here is right next to a big catholic church and down the street a hindu temple and further down the street a lutheran church. They have get togethers all the time. Breaks down barriers. One of the coolest girls I know works at the local taco bell and she's muslim.

That's why I don't like my rural family. They are paranoid up the butt and probly couldn't live where I live because well put it bluntly there racist. I don't even think they'd approve of my girlfriend who's asian.

[Fanpuck33]

Then in that case they've already 'won'. Paranoia runs rampent down here. Its silly what I've heard people say.

What are you talking about? If Americans were scared of terrorists, then millions of Americans wouldn't be getting on airplanes each and every day.

I think they haven't gone the car bomb route because I think its beneath them like it wouldn't get our attention.

Ridiculous. The Oklahoma City bombing sure got everyone's attention.

For instance the big local mosque here is right next to a big catholic church and down the street a hindu temple and further down the street a lutheran church. They have get togethers all the time. Breaks down barriers. One of the coolest girls I know works at the local taco bell and she's muslim.

What the churches in your area are doing is great, but I think that is more about changing our attitudes about Muslims. While that is great, it is not the typical Muslim who is becoming a terrorist. It is the fanatics. Sure, there are some idiots who think all Muslims think like the radicals do, but that is certainly by no means the majority. I have nothing against Muslims in general and I don't know anybody who does.

Hehe, I remember the days of the "cool" kids. Seems like so long ago now.

[MAK]

In order for terrorists to win, they have to put fear in the hearts of the general public.

that's the media's job...

anyway, nowadays, everybody who not a friend of usa or israel is a potential terrorist. but since israel and usa have great armies, they can call it defending themselves or retaliation.

[Pierre the Great]

Hey we actually agree on something Fanpuck. I never thought I'd be in agreement with you. Hell has frozen over.

Yeah I think it governments should focus on two things. Security and understanding and prevention. Isolation leads to radicalization. When people are having a tough time in life and they are religious they tend to go to the religious figure for help. If that religious figure is a fanatic (no matter what religion) that person should not be in that authority. These radical Imams, pastors, shieks, rabbi's, high priests need to be stopped.

The problem is thats cracking down on hate speech. And according to the constitution hate speech is allowed. I think it shouldn't. This country could fix a lot of its problems if it could arrest people for inciting hate and hate speech. I might be the biggest lefty out here but there is no place in society for hate speech.

EDIT: Oh I forgot to mention the inter faith groupings that those local religious centers do by my house must do it because a bunch of yahoos from a rich area of town fire bombed the hindu temple here thinking it was the mosque. FBI got involved. It put a lot of the community on edge. My nieghbours go to that temple and my other nieghbours go to the mosque and my friend's dad is the deacon at the catholic church and I was baptized at the lutheran church. Small world.

Second EDIT: here's what happend to the beautiful temple, been there cool place.

http://www.iacfpa.org/p_news/nit/iacpa-arc...02003-top.shtml

Some one vandalised a local synagogue now:

http://www.stlimc.org/newswire/display/1939/index.php

Edited August 11, 2006 by Pierre the Great

[Fanpuck33]

anyway, nowadays, everybody who not a friend of usa or israel is a potential terrorist. but since israel and usa have great armies, they can call it defending themselves or retaliation.

Hezbollah started this latest conflict, not Isreal. Hezbollah targeted civilians in the attacks that escalted this latest conflict. Israel has obviously done a poor job in their efforts to avoid collateral damage, but they are not the ones using civilian areas as bases and they are not the ones intentionally targeting civilians in their attacks.

Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, recognized as such by the US, Canada, Isreal, and Netherlands. The UK and Australia recognize Hezbollah's security orginization as a terrorist group. The European Union recognizes that Hezbollah has committed acts of terrorism and lists thier head security officer as a terrorist. Russia also recognizes that Hezbollah has committed acts of terror, but stops short of calling it a terrorist group because it is not a direct threat to Russia.

Here's what happend to the beautiful temple, been there cool place.

http://www.iacfpa.org/p_news/nit/iacpa-arc...02003-top.shtml

Some one vandalised a local synagogue now:

http://www.stlimc.org/newswire/display/1939/index.php

I'm only working off of stereotypes here, so don't kill me on this. It is interesting to note that these two instances show that both sides in American politics can be idiots. In general, it seems like is the "redneck conservatives" who vandalize mosques. As for the synagogue, it seems that mostly liberals are the ones condemming Israel's actions and would vandalize an Israeli flag.

[KoZed]

Isolation leads to radicalization. When people are having a tough time in life and they are religious they tend to go to the religious figure for help. If that religious figure is a fanatic (no matter what religion) that person should not be in that authority. These radical Imams, pastors, shieks, rabbi's, high priests need to be stopped.

I think you're on to something there.

I befriended a couple of Tunisian girls back in University. They were sooo... Mmmm, let's just say I've got a soft spot for girls with that type of complexion and who aren't trite bitchy blackholes of egocentrism like too many N-American girls. But I'm disgressing...

Anyway. Tunisia is a relatively "liberal" Muslim country (find more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Tunisia ). Basically my friends told me its was a little like, say, Quebec, where the majority is Catholic more by tradition than by practice. Religion's there, but its not a big deal.

The girls all said they loved it in Quebec/Canada/North-American. They enjoy the lifestyle and the freedoms they've got here. They got no adaptation issues. But they say its their male counterparts from Tunisia that develop issues once here. Girls says the guys are cool when in their home country, but once here in foreign soil they start reverting back to a more fundamentalistic and religious form of lifestyle. As if they were resisting their new environment and going in a shell. Tunisian girls basically told me they are cut more slack by the Tunisian guys when they're in Tunisia than when they're here in N-America.

If that happens with males from a Muslim country as liberal as Tunisia, I imagine it could be even truer for males from more conservative Muslim countries. It's an interesting phenomenon, so I which there was more study into that. There could be a ton of explanations as to why that happens. Looking along cultural gender lines could offer a lot of insight into the whole issue, I believe. I think that, aside from big ideological divides, something as basic as inter-gender power balance might be part of the problem. To me, that's much more fundamental, real and insidious than broad, absolute and simplistic generalizations like "they hate our freedom".

To mess with gender roles and figures is to mess with the deepest, most complex layers of the human psyche. When you look at it from that perspective, you realize that, for example, Joe from Winfield, Kansas who can't accept homosexuals getting maried and Hassan from Zanjan, Iran who can't accept women showing their face in public; are almost psychological twins.

Edited August 11, 2006 by KoZed

[JLP]

For example, cars these days get great realibilty but there is a ceiling to technology and no one can make the 'perfect car'.

yes we can, it's called the bicycle

(oops, anti-oil statement, watch out, might be an 'enviro-terrorist'!)

[KoZed]

yes we can, it's called the bicycle

(oops, anti-oil statement, watch out, might be an 'enviro-terrorist'!)

LOL

Anyone played Civilization: Call To Power? Remember the "Eco-Terrorist" unit. Was like a futuristic VW Westfalia van painted with hippie colors? You could raze a city by turning it into a jungle. That was cool.

I just hope the CIA's not monitoring our boards though...

[Pierre the Great]

Exactly KoZed. Which is why I cringe when I see a leader or politico say "they hate our freedoms". It has nothing to do with being modern or whatever. Its psycological per say.

This whole war on terrorism would have gotten off on a better foot if they had instead of used guns used words and understanding. If someone wants to win this 'war' they can't do it with guns.

A perfect tv show that comes to mind is Morgan Spurlocks "30 days". Where he'll take two people on two extremes on there issue and basically one lives in the other shoes for a month.

Examples:

A devoute born again christian who is kinda racist (says things like the muslims are going to hell and so on) basically becomes a muslim for a month. He must go to every prayer time, he doesn't have to pray he just has to go. In other words he walks in the there shoes.

Others have been a minute man guy who hates illegal immigrants moves in with an illegal immigrant family. His outlook changes.

Another was an anti gay person from kansas goes to live with a gay guy in San Francisco for a month.

An athiest moved in with a super devoute born again family.

Great show. You can learn a lot from it.

[Fanpuck33]

This whole war on terrorism would have gotten off on a better foot if they had instead of used guns used words and understanding. If someone wants to win this 'war' they can't do it with guns.

Fanatics don't listen to reason.

[JLP]

The 'terrorists' were not Muslim but environmentalists but the idea is that these underground organizations wreaked havoc throughout the whole of the world's society just like what's going on now.

what a thought -- if the multinationals defeat the environmentalists then the world will be in fine shape.

[Pierre the Great]

Fanatics don't listen but people being swaded by them do.

Bush basically called 1billion people fascists doesn't help his cause only creates more bad guys. If you want to stop this you have to enbolden the moderates and secularists to speak up. Calling a religion fascist puts those people out on the curb.

[Fanpuck33]

There is nothing wrong with what Bush said. He did not call all Islamic people fascists. He called the Muslim terrorists fascists. Anyone who thinks he meant all Muslims in that statement is a fool. The sad thing is that the liberals will go to town on that statement, even though they know damn well what he meant.

[Pierre the Great]

So by your definition are the radical christian groups controlling the christian right fascists? I don't see bush coming out against evangelicals? I've been to a few of there gatherings and there just as extreme as terrorists.

[Fanpuck33]

So by your definition are the radical christian groups controlling the christian right fascists? I don't see bush coming out against evangelicals? I've been to a few of there gatherings and there just as extreme as terrorists.

Evangelicals don't blow people up.

For example, cars these days get great realibilty but there is a ceiling to technology and no one can make the 'perfect car'.

Car makers are, indeed, holding back ways to make cars better. I once read about a shop class in a high school that was able to fix a car engine so that it got over 60 miles to the gallon. I don't know about you, but I don't see anyone getting that kind of gas mileage.

[Pierre the Great]

Oh yeah Fanpuck they made the electric car and it worked flawlessly but didn't want anyone to know they made it so they took it from there customers and crushed the cars in the middle of the desert. Then the oil companies bought the rights to the batteries that were put in the cars basically controlling and stopping electric cars from ever becoming mass produced again.

Eric Rudolph was a terrorist. There are many people around my area who hold his beliefs.

[Fanpuck33]

Oh yeah Fanpuck they made the electric car and it worked flawlessly but didn't want anyone to know they made it so they took it from there customers and crushed the cars in the middle of the desert.

Don't bother posting if you have no idea what you are talking about. I never said anything about an electric car. Whatever modifications they made were most likely odd little changes they made that are simply impractical in automative manufacturing. However, it shows that it is possible to improve a car's gas mileage.

Eric Rudolph was a terrorist. There are many people around my area who hold his beliefs.

Lots of people may share his beliefs, but they also don't condone his actions and go around trying to kill people. Saying that people who are against gay marriage and abortion support Rudolph's actions is no different than saying that all Muslims are terrorists. Both statements are utterly ridiculous.

You obviously find some crazy people down there in Mississippi. If you think the rest of the country is like the minority of whacko people you keep talking about, then you are sorely mistaken.