Best goalie of all time?

[jetsniper]

I was a Roy fan before a Habs/Avs fan, I'd still say Roy was better. Avs came after Roy, people here actually know that about me.

No, I don't have some stupid vendetta against Hasek or anything, I just think Brodeur and Roy have offered and done more for the game then Hasek. That beats any dumb statistic for me.

It's obvious we're not going to agree here so I'm just gonna end it now. Hasek is the greatest ever, I was wrong, game over.

[Aebischer4life]

I was a Roy fan before a Habs/Avs fan, I'd still say Roy was better. Avs came after Roy, people here actually know that about me.

No, I don't have some stupid vendetta against Hasek or anything, I just think Brodeur and Roy have offered and done more for the game then Hasek. That beats any dumb statistic for me.

It's obvious we're not going to agree here so I'm just gonna end it now. Hasek is the greatest ever, I was wrong, game over.

As the great Ken Dryden once said. "Dominik Hasek stops pucks and that's his job. You can do it standup, butterfly, flopping, it doesnt matter. You stop the puck. He understands that probably better then any goalie."

I'd rather listen to Ken Dryden then fanboys of Roy.

What has Brodeur offered that Hasek hasnt?

By the way do you know for a fact that Hasek quit on his team in Detroit and Ottawa? Do you know for a fact that the man wasnt really injured? Why would he fake injuries if he wouldve made 1.5 million bonus by just playing in the playoffs last season?

If Hasek quit on Detroit, why did Detroit bring him back?

[sbhatt]

I give Roy the edge over Hasek: 4 cups is the reason. I can't help but feel Roy would have found a way to stop Hull, foot in the crease or not. (HAHA! Take that, Sabres fans!) Roy took his teams to 5 Stanley Cup finals, and he won 4 of them. Ten overtime games during the 1993 playoffs, and won all ten games. That trumps any regular season stats you can generate.

[jetsniper]

I'll take the GMs word for Hasek's injuries. Both Murray and Muckler said he could've played and when he announced he was out for Detroit, management was VERY surprised. I'm not saying he wasn't injured but both teams said he was healthy enough to play. The greats play if they can, they have the drive to win. Patrick has done it on many occasions. As for Marty, I hate him with a passion but his leadership qualities far surpass Hasek's. Broduer and Roy both carry an aura with them on the ice, I never saw that with Dom.

Anywho, why'd you keep arguing? I said I was done, this whole thing is pointless. It's not like we're gonna change each others minds.

[Aebischer4life]

sbhatt is this the same Roy you speak of who has lost more game 7-s then he has won?

[jetsniper]

sbhatt is this the same Roy you speak of who has lost more game 7-s then he has won?

But you said you'd take him over anyone in the playoffs. Now you pull out a playoff stat?

And I'm the one who has something against a goalie. Hah!

[Aebischer4life]

But you said you'd take him over anyone in the playoffs. Now you pull out a playoff stat?

And I'm the one who has something against a goalie. Hah!

When you two consistently rip on a goaltender, one will get mad eventually no matter how patient one is. He said Roy wouldve stopped the brett hull goal.I was simply responding to that nonsense.

And yes I would take him over anyone in the playoffs. But Dom would be number 2 on my list. It's not like he was a goof in the playoffs. Everybody forgotten how he basically swept our habs in 1998 all by himself?

[jetsniper]

How can you say it's nonsense? It's his opinion! Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can call people's opinions nonsense.

Fact of life, not everyone will agree with you. You're getting too worked up over a simple internet debate.

[dark_faerie87]

When you two consistently rip on a goaltender, one will get mad eventually no matter how patient one is. He said Roy wouldve stopped the brett hull goal.I was simply responding to that nonsense.

And yes I would take him over anyone in the playoffs. But Dom would be number 2 on my list. It's not like he was a goof in the playoffs. Everybody forgotten how he basically swept our habs in 1998 all by himself?

Respond to my Streit/Souray stats!!!!!

[Shu]

Roy, but soon to be Brodeur probably, only 34 and is third in wins

[option+]

I don't really want to get drawn into a Hasek v. Roy argument... I've already threw my lot in with Hasek, but I can definitely understand why everyone else is picking Roy. Just three things I wanted to mention:

-Using that the argument that Roy was a cultural phenomenon and Hasek wasn't isn't valid. I've been to the Czech Republic, and I can tell you with certainty that Hasek is a national hero there, as much if not more than Roy is in Quebec/Canada. Of course Hasek isn't as big of a cultural phenomenon on this side of the Atlantic; he's not one of ours, and Roy is.

-It's clear that Roy changed the game more than every goalie in hockey history except for maybe Jacques Plante. But remember that Hasek has changed the game too, albeit not as much as Roy. Next time Aebischer is swimming around in his crease without a goal stick, remember that before Hasek, goalies didn't DARE do snow angels in their crease (at least, not nearly as often).

-Roy obviously has the better playoff resume, but Hasek's is still pretty impressive. The '96 Avs vs. '02 Wings argument is pointless; what seems more important to me is that Roy at his peak consistently played on better teams than Hasek did in his prime, and it wasn't even close. Some of Hasek's Buffalo teams were atrocious: in 96-97, Derek freaking Plante led the team in scoring; in 97-98, Miro Satan led the team with 46 points in 79 GP; those teams had the likes of Brian Holzinger, Randy Burridge, Jason Dawe and Michal Grosek playing on scoring lines. Given talent like this, Hasek was never going to win any Cups in Buffalo; no goalie in NHL history would have won any Cups with a supporting crew like that (and Hasek came very, very close). Hasek still, however, put up monster #s in the playoffs:

93-94: 1.61 GAA, .950 SV% (first round loss)

94-95: 3.49 GAA, .863 SV% (his only bad playoff year in Buffalo, unsurprisingly a first round loss)

96-97: 1.96 GAA, .926 SV%

97-98: 2.03 GAA, .938 SV%

98-99: 1.77 GAA, .939 SV% (when Buffalo made the finals)

99-00: 2.39 GAA, .918 SV%

00-01: 2.09 GAA, .916 SV%

01-02: 1.86 GAA, .920 SV%

Edited October 31, 2006 by option+

[beliveau1]

Saw Plante, Sawchuk, Hall & Bower = best four I've ever seen and they all did it in the original six...... which I'm old enough to have watched, appreciated & understood ( uuuugggghhh that hurt to admit that?)

[Mils]

If Hasek quit on Detroit, why did Detroit bring him back?

Two words: Osgood, Legace.

It's Roy, by the way.

Hasek had a few better years than Roy, and that's fine. he was more of a flash in the pan.

Here's the cure to that argument:

In the 4-6 years they were really popular, I'm sure that the backstreet boys sold more tickets and made more money than the Rolling Stones. Throw numbers around, add them, subtract them, divide them, I don't care. The Backstreet Boys made more money in that time. By your statistical analysis, the Backstreet Boys were head and shoulders "better" than the Rolling Stones because that's what the numbers say. Will any reasonable, neutral person claim that the backstreet Boys were a better band? Never. The analogy applies here.

Furthermore, if you ask any NHL player if they want a regular season goalie or a playoff goalie every single one will say a playoff goalie bar none. (assuming the team is good enough to get to the playoffs. Never seemed to be a problem for any Hasek or Roy team.) You can count up all the Hart trophies and Vezina trophies and all of that you want to, those are individual awards. It all goes away in the playoffs. No player ever said, "Well, we lost our last game, but it was a successful season because I won my 4th Pearson trophy!!!! Break out the champagne!!!!!" When you consider hockey as a whole, and get past statistical breakdowns, you realize that Patrick rose to the occasion and pushed his team to win the only TEAM trophy in a TEAM sport, while Hasek was there some nights and not others. The best players make others around them better. Patrick made his teams shine; specially in '86, '93, '96, and '01.

(Brodeur will finish his career as potentially the #1 goalie ever, don't discount him. Brodeur and Roy are in a class by themselves since 1980. Due respect to Grant Fuhr.)

[option+]

Hasek had a few better years than Roy, and that's fine. he was more of a flash in the pan.

Here's the cure to that argument:

In the 4-6 years they were really popular, I'm sure that the backstreet boys sold more tickets and made more money than the Rolling Stones. Throw numbers around, add them, subtract them, divide them, I don't care. The Backstreet Boys made more money in that time. By your statistical analysis, the Backstreet Boys were head and shoulders "better" than the Rolling Stones because that's what the numbers say. Will any reasonable, neutral person claim that the backstreet Boys were a better band? Never. The analogy applies here.

Bad analogy. I understand and agree that statistics don't tell the whole story, but record sales reflect people's personal tastes and NOT the quality of the musician(s) in question. Hockey statistics are much, much, much, much closer to being accurate records of players' hockey ability.

And plus, that argument only works if the Backstreet Boys began their career in Czechoslovakia, sold the most albums there there for about a decade, only got their first North American record contract at an advanced age, then dominated North American music market until they were as old as the Rolling Stones. Don't forget that Hasek lost quite a few good years in Czechoslovakia (where he was goalie of the year from 1986 to 1990). Roy might be a better goalie, he Hasek was certainly not a "flash in the pan".

Edited October 31, 2006 by option+

[Peter Puck]

1. Tretiak. Unbelievably great goalie. Saw him play against the best the NHL had to offer and he dominated consistently.

2. Have to go with Roy. He carried average teams to Stanley cups on his back.

3. Jacques Plante.

4. Hasek

Edited October 31, 2006 by Peter Puck

[Aebischer4life]

Saw Plante, Sawchuk, Hall & Bower = best four I've ever seen and they all did it in the original six...... which I'm old enough to have watched, appreciated & understood ( uuuugggghhh that hurt to admit that?)

LOL you must be like 60 years old then?

How good were these 4 guys really? I'd love to hear about them.

[beliveau1]

LOL you must be like 60 years old then?

How good were these 4 guys really? I'd love to hear about them.

Not quite that old - but all four were playing while I was old enough to understand the game.

Sawchuk was a money goaltender - played his best when the pressure was on.

Hall was an enigma - often threwup between periods due to his nerves

Bower was an oldtimer before he even started in the NHL really - one of the oldest NHL rookies ever?

Plante - well there weren't any that were better or more revolutionary than he was back then.

He used to knit the toques he wore on the ice in the earlly years of his career. Even late in his career when he and Glenn Hall suited up for the Blues they were still incredible goalies.

These guys did in a day when there were only 6 teams, their pads were less than half the size they are today(heck there are defenceman today who are wearing bigger pads than they did?) and the pads were made of heavy water soaking leather. No satellite dish sized trappers or over sized sweaters to stop the puck back then, and these guys faced guys like Boom Boom Geoffrion & Bobby Hulls slap shots, not to mention Gordie Howes incredible wrist shot(could put it past goalies from the point when used ther on the powerplay sometimes!) Hence the fact that I think these four are the best I've ever seen....

Yes there are some good goalies today, but they are helped an awful lot by oversized equipment(they can cheat now), reduced offence and a weakened overall talent pool......

Somebody mentioned Tretiak here - great goalie who was groomed for the NHL style game, but apparently he was not the greatest at times back in Europe due to the different style of game?

Edited October 31, 2006 by beliveau1

[riker]

Not quite that old - but all four were playing while I was old enough to understand the game.

Sawchuk was a money goaltender - played his best when the pressure was on.

Hall was an enigma - often threwup between periods due to his nerves

Bower was an oldtimer before he even started in the NHL really - one of the oldest NHL rookies ever?

Plante - well there weren't any that were better or more revolutionary than he was back then.

He used to knit the toques he wore on the ice in the earlly years of his career. Even late in his career when he and Glenn Hall suited up for the Blues they were still incredible goalies.

These guys did in a day when there were only 6 teams, their pads were less than half the size they are today(heck there are defenceman today who are wearing bigger pads than they did?) and the pads were made of heavy water soaking leather. No satellite dish sized trappers or over sized sweaters to stop the puck back then, and these guys faced guys like Boom Boom Geoffrion & Bobby Hulls slap shots, not to mention Gordie Howes incredible wrist shot(could put it past goalies from the point when used ther on the powerplay sometimes!) Hence the fact that I think these four are the best I've ever seen....

Yes there are some good goalies today, but they are helped an awful lot by oversized equipment(they can cheat now), reduced offence and a weakened overall talent pool......

Somebody mentioned Tretiak here - great goalie who was groomed for the NHL style game, but apparently he was not the greatest at times back in Europe due to the different style of game?

My favorite quote from Jacques Plante:

"Goaltending is a normal job. Sure! How would you like it in your job if everytime you made a mistake, a

red light went on over your desk and fifteen thousand people stood up and yelled at YOU? "

- Hall of Fame goaltender, Jacques Plante

[option+]

Goalies are awesome. I read somewhere that either Gilles Meloche or Gilles Gilbert (I can't remember which one) thought that being a goalie was punishment for something he's done in a past life.

[Shu]

Goalies are awesome. I read somewhere that either Gilles Meloche or Gilles Gilbert (I can't remember which one) thought that being a goalie was punishment for something he's done in a past life.

I was a player for a while, I confinsed my dad to get me goalie pads when i was 10. I love goalie, but i wish sometimes while im sitting on the bench doing nothing, i could go out and lay some one out.

[KoZed]

Sawchuk was a money goaltender - played his best when the pressure was on.

Hall was an enigma - often threwup between periods due to his nerves

Bower was an oldtimer before he even started in the NHL really - one of the oldest NHL rookies ever?

Plante - well there weren't any that were better or more revolutionary than he was back then.

He used to knit the toques he wore on the ice in the earlly years of his career. Even late in his career when he and Glenn Hall suited up for the Blues they were still incredible goalies.

These guys did in a day when there were only 6 teams, their pads were less than half the size they are today(heck there are defenceman today who are wearing bigger pads than they did?) and the pads were made of heavy water soaking leather. No satellite dish sized trappers or over sized sweaters to stop the puck back then, and these guys faced guys like Boom Boom Geoffrion & Bobby Hulls slap shots, not to mention Gordie Howes incredible wrist shot(could put it past goalies from the point when used ther on the powerplay sometimes!) Hence the fact that I think these four are the best I've ever seen....

Yup, that's why I placed Plante and Sawchuk ahead of Roy and Hasek. They didn't have the benefit of goalie coaches and entire systems based on them. They were trully the last line of defense, with little protection.

I've seen old footages of Plante. He was something else. Going down on his knees eons before the butterfly style was invented. Going to loose pucks. Its difficult to compare, because guys back then seemed to have almost as much technique as any kid playing in the streets now... but he was acrobatic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDD-zA7OWRk

1 Hart, 7 Vezinas (which was just for lowest GAA back then... he could have won more), 5 Straight Stanley Cup. First goalie to come out of his net to play the puck, first goalie to introduce the mask as a piece of equipment (he maded them himself).

As for the Roy-Hasek comparison: When Hasek became a starter in the NHL around 92-93, Patrick Roy already had 4 Jennings, 3 Vezinas and 1 Conn-Smythe, all before the age of 27 yrs old.

Of course Hasek's save percentage is way high: he was receiving over 30 shots per game... on a team who's entire system was based around him. Roy only benefited of that during a few seasons in Montreal at the end of the 90's where scoring league-wide was at the highest it's ever been. Hasek did it in a time where scoring was at its lowest ever.

You want to compare Roy and Hasek's stats on the same years? You can't. Hasek was on a team build around him, in a tight-checking Conference. Roy was one of the few offensive team there was at the time, in a more open Conference. Two teams with opposite styles. Put Roy in Buffalo or New Jersey in those years and you probably would have got much similar stats. But that's just ifs and buts. Roy already had about 10 more seasons played in the NHL than Dom and he had been more dominant in those 10 years than Dom has been in his entire career.

Want to know how dominant Roy was in the first half of his career, you've got to put stats back in their context. In 88-89 he recorded a league-leading 2.47 GAA. The league average back then was 3.74. In 88-89 (10 years later) Hasek potted his best GAA at 1.87, when the league average was 2.63. Roy's 2.47 would have be equivalent to 1.73 GAA that year. But he didnt piled up Harts because that was unthinkable back then to give the Hart to a goalie... especially not when guys like Gretzky, Lemieux, Bourque and etc. were in their prime. But Roy got consideration, which was unheard of at that time. Hasek got Harts in a goalie's era where many goalies around the league were their respective team's MVP. The fact that Theodore also won the Hart a couple of years later shows how different that era was. Theo has 1 more Hart trophy than Roy, does that make him better?

I found something nice: http://members.shaw.ca/hbtn/player_study/u...adjustedsvp.htm. Hasek and Roy are basically tied for career SV%.

[Shu]

Yup, that's why I placed Plante and Sawchuk ahead of Roy and Hasek. They didn't have the benefit of goalie coaches and entire systems based on them. They were trully the last line of defense, with little protection.

I've seen old footages of Plante. He was something else. Going down on his knees eons before the butterfly style was invented. Going to loose pucks. Its difficult to compare, because guys back then seemed to have almost as much technique as any kid playing in the streets now... but he was acrobatic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDD-zA7OWRk

1 Hart, 7 Vezinas (which was just for lowest GAA back then... he could have won more), 5 Straight Stanley Cup. First goalie to come out of his net to play the puck, first goalie to introduce the mask as a piece of equipment (he maded them himself).

As for the Roy-Hasek comparison: When Hasek became a starter in the NHL around 92-93, Patrick Roy already had 4 Jennings, 3 Vezinas and 1 Conn-Smythe, all before the age of 27 yrs old.

Of course Hasek's save percentage is way high: he was receiving over 30 shots per game... on a team who's entire system was based around him. Roy only benefited of that during a few seasons in Montreal at the end of the 90's where scoring league-wide was at the highest it's ever been. Hasek did it in a time where scoring was at its lowest ever.

You want to compare Roy and Hasek's stats on the same years? You can't. Hasek was on a team build around him, in a tight-checking Conference. Roy was one of the few offensive team there was at the time, in a more open Conference. Two teams with opposite styles. Put Roy in Buffalo or New Jersey in those years and you probably would have got much similar stats. But that's just ifs and buts. Roy already had about 10 more seasons played in the NHL than Dom and he had been more dominant in those 10 years than Dom has been in his entire career.

Want to know how dominant Roy was in the first half of his career, you've got to put stats back in their context. In 88-89 he recorded a league-leading 2.47 GAA. The league average back then was 3.74. In 88-89 (10 years later) Hasek potted his best GAA at 1.87, when the league average was 2.63. Roy's 2.47 would have be equivalent to 1.73 GAA that year. But he didnt piled up Harts because that was unthinkable back then to give the Hart to a goalie... especially not when guys like Gretzky, Lemieux, Bourque and etc. were in their prime. But Roy got consideration, which was unheard of at that time. Hasek got Harts in a goalie's era where many goalies around the league were their respective team's MVP. The fact that Theodore also won the Hart a couple of years later shows how different that era was. Theo has 1 more Hart trophy than Roy, does that make him better?

I found something nice: http://members.shaw.ca/hbtn/player_study/u...adjustedsvp.htm. Hasek and Roy are basically tied for career SV%.

notice he said, "who you have seen play"

But thanks for that vid of hockey classics, I get that on OLN (VS.). But i had never seen the Plante one

[Aebischer4life]

Not quite that old - but all four were playing while I was old enough to understand the game.

Sawchuk was a money goaltender - played his best when the pressure was on.

Hall was an enigma - often threwup between periods due to his nerves

Bower was an oldtimer before he even started in the NHL really - one of the oldest NHL rookies ever?

Plante - well there weren't any that were better or more revolutionary than he was back then.

He used to knit the toques he wore on the ice in the earlly years of his career. Even late in his career when he and Glenn Hall suited up for the Blues they were still incredible goalies.

These guys did in a day when there were only 6 teams, their pads were less than half the size they are today(heck there are defenceman today who are wearing bigger pads than they did?) and the pads were made of heavy water soaking leather. No satellite dish sized trappers or over sized sweaters to stop the puck back then, and these guys faced guys like Boom Boom Geoffrion & Bobby Hulls slap shots, not to mention Gordie Howes incredible wrist shot(could put it past goalies from the point when used ther on the powerplay sometimes!) Hence the fact that I think these four are the best I've ever seen....

Yes there are some good goalies today, but they are helped an awful lot by oversized equipment(they can cheat now), reduced offence and a weakened overall talent pool......

Somebody mentioned Tretiak here - great goalie who was groomed for the NHL style game, but apparently he was not the greatest at times back in Europe due to the different style of game?

WOW Awesome Post.

How could I forget Tretiak. When I was in my teens, Tretiak was so hyped in montreal it wasnt even funny. It was well deserved too. The man was an unbelivable goaltender. Too bad he couldnt cme over to the nhl.. if he had he would be considered top 5 for sure.

[Aebischer4life]

Yup, that's why I placed Plante and Sawchuk ahead of Roy and Hasek. They didn't have the benefit of goalie coaches and entire systems based on them. They were trully the last line of defense, with little protection.

I've seen old footages of Plante. He was something else. Going down on his knees eons before the butterfly style was invented. Going to loose pucks. Its difficult to compare, because guys back then seemed to have almost as much technique as any kid playing in the streets now... but he was acrobatic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDD-zA7OWRk

1 Hart, 7 Vezinas (which was just for lowest GAA back then... he could have won more), 5 Straight Stanley Cup. First goalie to come out of his net to play the puck, first goalie to introduce the mask as a piece of equipment (he maded them himself).

As for the Roy-Hasek comparison: When Hasek became a starter in the NHL around 92-93, Patrick Roy already had 4 Jennings, 3 Vezinas and 1 Conn-Smythe, all before the age of 27 yrs old.

Of course Hasek's save percentage is way high: he was receiving over 30 shots per game... on a team who's entire system was based around him. Roy only benefited of that during a few seasons in Montreal at the end of the 90's where scoring league-wide was at the highest it's ever been. Hasek did it in a time where scoring was at its lowest ever.

You want to compare Roy and Hasek's stats on the same years? You can't. Hasek was on a team build around him, in a tight-checking Conference. Roy was one of the few offensive team there was at the time, in a more open Conference. Two teams with opposite styles. Put Roy in Buffalo or New Jersey in those years and you probably would have got much similar stats. But that's just ifs and buts. Roy already had about 10 more seasons played in the NHL than Dom and he had been more dominant in those 10 years than Dom has been in his entire career.

Want to know how dominant Roy was in the first half of his career, you've got to put stats back in their context. In 88-89 he recorded a league-leading 2.47 GAA. The league average back then was 3.74. In 88-89 (10 years later) Hasek potted his best GAA at 1.87, when the league average was 2.63. Roy's 2.47 would have be equivalent to 1.73 GAA that year. But he didnt piled up Harts because that was unthinkable back then to give the Hart to a goalie... especially not when guys like Gretzky, Lemieux, Bourque and etc. were in their prime. But Roy got consideration, which was unheard of at that time. Hasek got Harts in a goalie's era where many goalies around the league were their respective team's MVP. The fact that Theodore also won the Hart a couple of years later shows how different that era was. Theo has 1 more Hart trophy than Roy, does that make him better?

I found something nice: http://members.shaw.ca/hbtn/player_study/u...adjustedsvp.htm. Hasek and Roy are basically tied for career SV%.

This is yet another awesome post. But one thing I dissagree with. Roy's teams did allow a lot of shots on net as well. I'd like to see the difference in shots per game of both goalies from 93-94 to 01-02. I bet its not that far off.

By the way.. if a Hart was so easy to win in the 90-s then why did Roy not get one? What about Brodeur? His team was built around him too....The fact that Theo won is irrelivant because when you say Theo won you're talking like he was just an average goalie that year. He put on the most unbelivable goaltending season seen by a habs goalie since about 15 years. It was magic.

By the way.. Hasek was in no position to win a cup with those Sabres teams. He would often have only 2 good offensive players (with around 50 points if thats even considered good) So no matter how good a goalie you are, if your team cant score you just wont win.

Roy, on the other hand was mostly on top 5 teams scoring wise in his career.

Remember in 1999 when he lead his team to the final? Dom I think didnt win one game where he gave up 2 or more. Roy never had to deal with that kind of pressure.

And then when Hasek finally played on a great team of his own, he won the cup that same year. He's 1 on 1 on great teams.

Again, this is no slight to Roy because he is the best playoff goalie I ever saw. It's just to show that Hasek wasnt a bum in the playoffs either.

[option+]

If this was a Leafs board, someone would have argued that Mike Palmateer was better than the lot of them.