Why Is Quebec So Crazy About Language

[Pierre the Great]

Its just a language. What are they afraid of. Why is english frowned upon? Why the hell do they have the tongue police? I'm angry over the Saku thing. If the french want a french Hockey team they can do what they do in Europe and build an arena in Laval and ask for the NHL to put a team there or better yet put one back in Quebec. But anyway I'm off topic already. Please explain to me why Quebeckers or Quebecers (can't figure out which is the proper way of saying it) have almost split from Canada over a Language? I want centrist view here show me the wrongs and rights of the situation. Hence the no flaming.

[simonus]

pierre... this is a huge topic you are trying to get into here. I don't think a message board is going to be the place for you to learn about this fundamental quebec/canadian issue. At the very least this issue goes back to when wolfe bested montcalme like almost 300 yrs ago. You'd be better off getting a book.

[Tony]

The French were the first to colonize the area. Then the British took over and then all hell broke loose.

That an easy summary.

Edited May 7, 2006 by Tony

[JLP]

Chips versus Poutine.

there

Actually I thought Komisarek (the poster not the player) had a good take on the Boisclair thread:

First of all guys, I'm french, I live in Montreal and I don't care if the players speak french or not. But, given the fact that a majority of their fans are french quebecers living in the province of Quebec and that there is a very strong french media coverage, it is very useful for the team to have french speaking players. Given the choice between 2 players of equal talent, I would take the french one, because he also brings marketing value.

Please try and understand for you not living here, the "language war" in Quebec is old and will never go away. Kind of like the Palestinians and Israel, it will never end. French quebecers are proud of their culture and origins and they want to protect that. It is not an easy thing to do when you are in an english surrounded environment for over a century. Some are too patriotic and act in stupid ways sometimes, but it is not the majority.

As for the french media, please stop saying that they are on a french war path. Only a few journalists, amongst the many that cover the Habs, are causing these problems, but the majority love Koivu and don't care if he speaks french or not. Stop generalizing to the entire french media what only a few morons did.

In the end, wheter we like it or not, there will always be a few french quebecers on the team. They are very valuable and very needed marketing tools, and in most cases, they give an extra push in the playoffs (they are playing in front of friends and family in their home town). The crazy hockey mentality anf fever that montrealers have is partialy due to the media which is mostly fueled by the french speaking players.

There will always be a good group of french quebecers playing in the NHL, so it is not a hard thing to do to have a couple that are good and play hard. It is a fact of life, so yes, if a player speaks french, it is a plus for the team...so don't be surprised when somebody says "and he speaks french" about a player.

Edited May 8, 2006 by JeanLucPilon

[JLP]

Plus, let's say there was a great player from Florida State, don't you think the Panthers would be interested in him? But there have not been many NHL superstars from Florida. Only the Canadian and a handfull of northern US teams could expect to have solid "local boy" representation on their teams.

About the language. It's simple I dunno why this has to come up so often. During the season the media frequently interview players. It is good if the player speaks the language. The Hab's fan base is hockey-mad Quebec, where the language is french.

as for PTG's bigger questions ("Why is Quebec crazy -- no flaming please" hehehe) yes buy a book or five, do some research into the history of the region.

I will say here that french is not "just a language" it is the cornerstone of Quebec'scultural identity.

[MAK]

Its just a language. What are they afraid of. Why is english frowned upon? Why the hell do they have the tongue police? I'm angry over the Saku thing. If the french want a french Hockey team they can do what they do in Europe and build an arena in Laval and ask for the NHL to put a team there or better yet put one back in Quebec. But anyway I'm off topic already. Please explain to me why Quebeckers or Quebecers (can't figure out which is the proper way of saying it) have almost split from Canada over a Language? I want centrist view here show me the wrongs and rights of the situation. Hence the no flaming.

the proper way to say it its québécois..but like you really care.

reading your posts I can see that your plain ignorant or racist... never read such a stupid comment in a while.

what your problem with french people anyway?? have we raped you/killed someone you loved.

french and english are different. period. get over it. I bet you never been to quebec or even tried to learn the language... but hey!! it's just a language.

you do know that your idol trudeau..he was french too..ouch!!

btw I'm also pissed about that journalist question...I think It was low and I really think koivu didn't deserved any of it. but do only french media ask stupid question or make stupid comments ??? come on (cough) coache's corner (cough)

get a life buddy

your real name wouldn't be beckham by any chance ??

[KoZed]

Your real name wouldn't be beckham by any chance ??

AOUCH!!!!!!!

[Pierre the Great]

What the hell? Marki and Komi you completely miss read me. I am far from a racist. Geez I guess you didn't see the sub-topic of no flaming.

And I do care. I care a lot.

Never been to Quebec. I'll admit yes but is on my radar of places to visit. Have I studied french? Yes. I can read really basic french and speak kinda broken french. I plan on minoring in french in university.

I'm not stupid, I know Trudeau was french.

Get a life? Thanks I already have one.

My main question is and this goes for BOTH Rest of Canada and Quebec is the acceptance of BOTH Languages. Why can't for example Quebec which makes you go to a french school so the kids growing up speak french not have a class like the normal subjects except in english for grades 1-12? Same goes for english Canada. Why can't they have a french class to go with math, science, history etc. I just want understanding between the two societies thats all. When people start to understand each other people start to get along better.

Sorry if I sound racist which I deplore considering a come from a city that has high racial tensions and I went to an all black school so please stop flinging mud.

[dark_faerie87]

What the hell? Marki and Komi you completely miss read me. I am far from a racist. Geez I guess you didn't see the sub-topic of no flaming.

And I do care. I care a lot.

Never been to Quebec. I'll admit yes but is on my radar of places to visit. Have I studied french? Yes. I can read really basic french and speak kinda broken french. I plan on minoring in french in university.

I'm not stupid, I know Trudeau was french.

Get a life? Thanks I already have one.

My main question is and this goes for BOTH Rest of Canada and Quebec is the acceptance of BOTH Languages. Why can't for example Quebec which makes you go to a french school so the kids growing up speak french not have a class like the normal subjects except in english for grades 1-12? Same goes for english Canada. Why can't they have a french class to go with math, science, history etc. I just want understanding between the two societies thats all. When people start to understand each other people start to get along better.

Sorry if I sound racist which I deplore considering a come from a city that has high racial tensions and I went to an all black school so please stop flinging mud.

As far as I know, or at least in BC, you HAVE to take French up until Grade 8. After that, it's optional and very few kids take it. I believe there is a similar approach in Quebec as well. But anyways, ever since the conclusion of the Battle of Quebec like 300 some odd years ago, the French have hated the English and vice versa. Actually, it even goes back further than that, if you take European history into account. But regardless, the French were not exactly treated all that well after they were defeated by the British in Canada. Because of their different language and culture, the English tried to assimilate them, but as you can see, it didn't work. So in a way, the French language is like the last bastion of defence of the French way of life in Canada. If you took it away from them, they would become increasingly English. Now the reason this ties into hockey is because of the Maroons and the Canadiens. Even though both teams were from Montreal, the Maroons were comprised of well-off/middle class English-speaking players. The Canadiens on the other hand, featured not-so-well-off French-speaking farmers and whatnot. And as we all know, the Canadiens eventually became more successful than their English counterparts, which gave the general French populace national pride, much like when Joan of Arc fought for France about six centuries before. So anyways, because of that, the Canadiens are seen as a symbol of French power in Canada. Now remember, I'm speaking in very general terms here, so please, no one get mad at me. Going back to the acceptance of language issue, the French don't like the English language because they are afraid of what it will do to their culture. On the other hand, the English don't exactly like the French because they feel that they get too many special privileges. Now I myself am of French ancestry, but even though I am an anglophone, many of my classmates would (and some still do...) laugh at me and call me a pansy because of numerous wars the French have lost, or done badly in. I've even had some people tell me that they can't cheer for the Canadiens because they're a French team. I mean honestly, WTF?!?! But seriously, the whole French/English thing is very deep-rooted and I don't think either side will ever come to an agreement.

[simonus]

not for nothing... and really doesnt come into your argument, but the dirty little secret on the early canadiens teams is that many of the players in fact weren't french canadian.

[beliveau1]

"First of all guys, I'm french, I live in Montreal and I don't care if the players speak french or not. But, given the fact that a majority of their fans are french quebecers living in the province of Quebec and that there is a very strong french media coverage, it is very useful for the team to have french speaking players. Given the choice between 2 players of equal talent, I would take the french one, because he also brings marketing value.

Please try and understand for you not living here, the "language war" in Quebec is old and will never go away. Kind of like the Palestinians and Israel, it will never end. French quebecers are proud of their culture and origins and they want to protect that. It is not an easy thing to do when you are in an english surrounded environment for over a century. Some are too patriotic and act in stupid ways sometimes, but it is not the majority.

As for the french media, please stop saying that they are on a french war path. Only a few journalists, amongst the many that cover the Habs, are causing these problems, but the majority love Koivu and don't care if he speaks french or not. Stop generalizing to the entire french media what only a few morons did.

In the end, wheter we like it or not, there will always be a few french quebecers on the team. They are very valuable and very needed marketing tools, and in most cases, they give an extra push in the playoffs (they are playing in front of friends and family in their home town). The crazy hockey mentality anf fever that montrealers have is partialy due to the media which is mostly fueled by the french speaking players.

There will always be a good group of french quebecers playing in the NHL, so it is not a hard thing to do to have a couple that are good and play hard. It is a fact of life, so yes, if a player speaks french, it is a plus for the team...so don't be surprised when somebody says "and he speaks french" about a player."

(quoting Komisarek the Cruncher - from Boisclair thread)

I'm from a French-Canadian background(Larocque) and while I understand both the cultural issues and the wish for Quebec born players in the Habs organization, the fact is that the NHL has changed. The Habs for years had first dibs on the best Quebec born players and benefitted greatly from that advantage. With the draft that changed somewhat - for a few years there were still few enough teams to give the Habs a decent shot at some of the best available. But with the number of teams currently in the NHL, this is no longer a viable alternative. Unfortunately the face of the NHL has changed dramatically since then, and if you want to be successful teams must adapt to this. In the new era, unless players are good enough to have a realistic chance of making it - teams absolutely cannot afford the economics of language driven politics.

Gone are the halcyon days of French Canadian players dominating the roster of the CH - like it or not.

Unfortunately far too many in Quebec have not moved forward with that reality - in a global world, they are still swept up and caught in an 'isolationist-like' mentality that influences their mindset. They continue to long for Quebec players who will lead them to the glory land..... When in fact the reality is that in order to win in todays NHL teams must blend a wide range of players from various nationalities - getting the best now is no longer as simple as the best French or English Canadian player available. In fact winning the Cup may even preclude a Quebec player actually being on the roster - yes such a scenario may at some point happen? Hopefully not from the marketing perspective, but that is a reality that might be conceived.....

Would it be a disaster? No - but unfortunately the french media and many Quebecois would view it as such due to a stubborn "us vs. them" mindset that continues to exist. Do we all hope for a hometown kid to succeed on his own stage - of course we do. Problem now is many Quebec players have no interest in playing at home, for a lot of reasons that are very obvious to us living outside of the province. Instead of rising to the hometown challenge, many now tend to excel playing for the opposition. A bitter pill for most Quebecois!

However the fact is, if Habs management caves to the pressure of signing French speaking players in order to appease the media and certain fans, the Habs will not win the cup soon. Thankfully Gainey is not a man who will bow to that pressure. He will draft or sign the best players available and if they speak french then that is an added bonus. If French born players fit the talent criteria to play in the NHL then I'm sure Gainey would not hesitate in obtaining their services. But if a better Russian, Czech, English or whatever they might be player is available for that position, then he better consider them first if they have the potential to contribute to a possible Cup victory!

I may be of French Canadian lineage, but as a Habs fan I want them to win the Stanley Cup - and quite frankly, I don't give a damn how they accomplish that feat. French or no French speaking players on the roster!!!!!

Edited May 8, 2006 by beliveau1

[CerebusClone]

My main question is and this goes for BOTH Rest of Canada and Quebec is the acceptance of BOTH Languages. Why can't for example Quebec which makes you go to a french school so the kids growing up speak french not have a class like the normal subjects except in english for grades 1-12? Same goes for english Canada. Why can't they have a french class to go with math, science, history etc. I just want understanding between the two societies thats all. When people start to understand each other people start to get along better.

Bingo! That partly resumes what I would love for Quebec and Canada to do: become a true bilingual country. It's kind of sad to see that practically everyone in Holland, where only Dutch is the official language, also speaks some decent English (and French in some parts) while here too many francos can't say anything more than "Yes", "No", and "Toaster", and for too many anglos knowing French is limited to "Voulez-vous coucher avec moi?".

The worst part is that we do have second language courses throughout the country, but they are so inefficient that too many people are still unilingual. I would so be 100% behind a new bylaw that would make all primary schools and high schools in Canada bilingual - something similar to the French immersion programs we have in the Montreal area, but better and not limited to primary schools - so that all kids growing up in Canada would be comfortable in both official languages. What people choose to do after that, it's their choice, and it doesn't mean that Quebecers cannot remain francophones (and vice & versa), but at least everyone would have a decent understanding of the other language.

Bilinguism is a ressource, and we need to take care of it.

Edited May 8, 2006 by CerebusClone

[MAK]

What the hell? Marki and Komi you completely miss read me. I am far from a racist. Geez I guess you didn't see the sub-topic of no flaming.

And I do care. I care a lot.

Never been to Quebec. I'll admit yes but is on my radar of places to visit. Have I studied french? Yes. I can read really basic french and speak kinda broken french. I plan on minoring in french in university.

I'm not stupid, I know Trudeau was french.

Get a life? Thanks I already have one.

My main question is and this goes for BOTH Rest of Canada and Quebec is the acceptance of BOTH Languages. Why can't for example Quebec which makes you go to a french school so the kids growing up speak french not have a class like the normal subjects except in english for grades 1-12? Same goes for english Canada. Why can't they have a french class to go with math, science, history etc. I just want understanding between the two societies thats all. When people start to understand each other people start to get along better.

Sorry if I sound racist which I deplore considering a come from a city that has high racial tensions and I went to an all black school so please stop flinging mud.

I guess I'm a bit too emotional about french/english relationships.

I'm just a bit sick and tired about the whole koivu story...It does bug me that he doesn'T speak a word or two in french but I sleep well a night. i just wish that we could only talk on how BAD or good our team is.

we do have french/english immersion(spelling ??) in some of our schools..but not enough...

I remenber when I used to spend my summers in ontario, my cousin would go to these french/english schools wich made him billingual really fast.

I really don't mind english immesion in quebec, it's just that they don't hold their head in the water long enough just kidding( good old bowser and blue joke)

please accept my apologies as they are sincere..

btw bonne chance on your minor

Edited May 8, 2006 by marky_and_komi

[huzer]

Here's my lack of contribution to a thread (but I'm bored at work today). One thing I wish the states had (like at least most of Ontario, I can't speak for the rest of Canada) is immersion. A girl I dated from Cornwall was perfectly bilingual, and had done french immersion. I think that's great. Of course stateside, any immersion to be adopted would be Spanish.

As far as the language issue in Quebec, I enjoyed that someplace so close to my hometown in NY was a completely different culture. Nobody mocked me (to my face) when I spoke broken french to anyone, nor was I ever treated with any form of disdain. I do wish people that live together within the province, however, would treat one other as well as they have tended to treat this tourist.

The think that's weird being in Denver (large hispanic population) is that if someone asks me (in Spanish) if I know spanish, I tend to answer them in French. Why, I don't know...

[KoZed]

The think that's weird being in Denver (large hispanic population) is that if someone asks me (in Spanish) if I know spanish, I tend to answer them in French. Why, I don't know...

Hehe, I know what you mean.

When I learned Spanish, I tended to think in English, with an English accent.

Its like your brain thinks "Uh-oh, not first language!" and automatically jumps to the first 2nd language you know.

[Pierre the Great]

Its okay Marki and Komi I understand.

[BTH]

Hehe, I know what you mean.

When I learned Spanish, I tended to think in English, with an English accent.

Its like your brain thinks "Uh-oh, not first language!" and automatically jumps to the first 2nd language you know.

I'm teaching myself Spanish right now and that never happened to me.

But I do sometimes get mixed up between French and Hebrew, especially if I don't use them for a couple of weeks.

I live in Montreal and went to a French immersion elementary school and I have a French class in high school almost everyday (my most common class) and every single person I know speaks both French and English well enough to hold a conversation. I don't really think there's a problem with Quebecers not knowing enough of both languages (but I know mostly anglos).

I had something else to say but I forgot so I'll just leave my post as is.

[MAK]

I'm teaching myself Spanish right now and that never happened to me.

But I do sometimes get mixed up between French and Hebrew,

:?-

I would understand if you mixed up spanish and french or italian but hebrew ??

Hehe, I know what you mean.

When I learned Spanish, I tended to think in English, with an English accent.

Its like your brain thinks "Uh-oh, not first language!" and automatically jumps to the first 2nd language you know.

thats why my spanish teacher always told us to think in spanish instead of french 1st and translate after.

i do have the same problem than you kozed( if I got it right)..when I speak spanish, my brain tells me that it's not my 1st language so I tend to think like it was english. so I kinda speak spanglish

Edited May 9, 2006 by marky_and_komi

[CerebusClone]

I live in Montreal and went to a French immersion elementary school and I have a French class in high school almost everyday (my most common class) and every single person I know speaks both French and English well enough to hold a conversation. I don't really think there's a problem with Quebecers not knowing enough of both languages (but I know mostly anglos).

There's a big difference between Montreal and the rest of the province. The city is by far more multi-cultural, and thus much more open (although still not enough) to cultural and linguistic differences. Of course, you will find exceptions as there are racist people, as well as people who are very closed-minded when it comes to language, but it general, the population in the Montreal area is quite open.

Outside the metropolitain region however is another story. People don't necessarily come out with torches and pitchforks, but since you'll be lucky to find one black person and one asian person per school, people don't quite grow up accustumed to cultural differences. Even in Quebec City, a somewhat big city and the province capital, people in general aren't quite as open as you would think. My friend was a reporter for Global in Quebec City, and apparently being anglo (even though he spoke French quite well) and especially black isn't a good combination there; he thought there was some discrimination is Montreal, but that was nothing compared to Quebec City.

So, even though I think cities like Montreal and Ottawa (and a few others) represent Canadian and Quebec ideals, they don't really quite represent the reality in the rest of country...

Edited May 9, 2006 by CerebusClone

[Pierre the Great]

So, even though I think cities like Montreal and Ottawa (and a few others) represent Canadian and Quebec ideals, they don't really quite represent the reality in the rest of country...

Kinda like comparing Vancouver to interior British Columbia, two differnt worlds, I guess.

[BTH]

@CerebusClone:

If it matters, I don't actually live in Montreal. I'm in a suburb called Dollard-Des-Ormeaux (/DDO) and that's where my french immersion elementary school is. And my high school is in St Laurent which isn't considered Montreal at the moment. St Laurent is mostly French and DDO is pretty much completely anglo.

[CerebusClone]

@CerebusClone:

If it matters, I don't actually live in Montreal. I'm in a suburb called Dollard-Des-Ormeaux (/DDO) and that's where my french immersion elementary school is. And my high school is in St Laurent which isn't considered Montreal at the moment. St Laurent is mostly French and DDO is pretty much completely anglo.

By Montreal I meant the Montreal area, not just the actual city itself. DDO and St-Laurent are defenitely included (actually, St-Laurent is still part of Montreal, did DDO demerge?)

[Pierre the Great]

I think some said this already but I think its really sad that you can go all over Europe (even in the old soviet union countries) and they can speak English. But if you go into Gaspe or to Quebec City and you ask for directions in english you will get a blank stare.

Which is why I'm for acceptance of both languages in Quebec and ROC. The world is not going to end in Quebec if they teach english in every school. The world is not going to end if they teach french in every school either.

Oh and I forgot to mention do they still dub the english movies in Quebec? I heard somewhere that they do.

[CerebusClone]

I think some said this already but I think its really sad that you can go all over Europe (even in the old soviet union countries) and they can speak English. But if you go into Gaspe or to Quebec City and you ask for directions in english you will get a blank stare.

Which is why I'm for acceptance of both languages in Quebec and ROC. The world is not going to end in Quebec if they teach english in every school. The world is not going to end if they teach french in every school either.

Oh and I forgot to mention do they still dub the english movies in Quebec? I heard somewhere that they do.

They do, but I see no problem with dubbing movies and tv shows, although I personally always watch the original version; not only do you lose part of the essence of the movie, but it's just weird to hear somebody else's voice over a known actor's (like what-his-name form the French Burger King commercials dubbing Tom Hanks in all his movies). But people who aren't comfortable enough with the English language to watch the original version are free to use subtitles or watch the dubbed version.

On a side note, I'm happy we don't have what they refer to as VOs (for Version Originale - Original Version) in France; in French theaters, even in the big tourist traps on Champs Elyssés, it's near impossible to watch the original version of a movie without the freakin' subtitles. More often than not I can't help but read them, and they can be a big distraction.

[BTH]

By Montreal I meant the Montreal area, not just the actual city itself. DDO and St-Laurent are defenitely included (actually, St-Laurent is still part of Montreal, did DDO demerge?)

Meh. DDO merged than demerged than decided to merge again or something. I don't think we're considered Montreal at the moment.