Pavel Valentenko leaves Hamilton

[johnnyhasbeen]

Can he return or did he sign for 3 years. If his father got the deal done it would seem a greedy father signed away his son's carreer for the now. Shame if that's the case. He probably was in the NHL by 23, if he continued to develop. Yes he is living better as a semi star in an over paid league, but I am sure his life style as an AHL player was better than most Russsians or Canadians for that matter. Hamilton may be an ugly town, but so what? No, the more I think on this the more I feel that if he jumped ship underhandedly we are better off without him. To bad we didn't deal him off first though!

[BTH]

He is able to come over after the second season without any problems. That is what his contract says anyway, the Russians will do their best to keep him there.

What Valentenko claims is that he went home to visit his family and once he got there, his father told him he'd made a team with Dynamo Moscow on a contract. The way explains it - "the contract was made for me!" - the only decision he had in the matter was refusing to stand up for himself and saying he needed to honour his contract with the Habs. Apparently, he's had this deal (or some other Russian deal) on the table since the offseason but turned them down - but once he was in Russia and his father had the whole deal set up, he felt he didn't have an excuse for turning it down? It's a little unclear what his answer is for why he had to stay in Russia so badly. (This all comes from Brian's link, by the way.)

He still says he intends to play in the NHL eventually. I wouldn't hold this against him, he clearly means well.

[RobRock]

Whether or not he can come back if he wants may end up before an arbitrator. They're still waiting to go before an arbitrator in the Radulov case. The Russians want it done in Russia, the league wants it done in Switzerland (wonder why?). They KHL is working under the assumption that Valentenko is theirs for the next three years. Of course, he could always walk out on them too, which would piss off the Russians again, and we're right back where we started.

What I would like to see happen is this. The Russian Ice Hockey federation has to approve all contracts for the league. I'd like someone, say Slava Fetisov, who I believe is the country's minister of sport, show some of the strength he displayed as a player and tell Medvedev that any player with a valid contract in another league is ineligible to play. Gary Bettman does the same for the NHL, and then they sit down and get a deal in place, for the benefit of both sides. Are KHL teams doing this in other European leagues? Are they scouring the Czech Republic, Sweden, Finland or Switzerland for players?

[Sir_Boagalott]

The IIHF has no choice but to get off thier hands and get involved with sanctions in every way possible against the Russian leagues. With any luck the courts in N.A and europe will hand out stiff penalties as well (but I'm not counting on it)

Yep, and if the KHL ever expands to the rest of EU or N.A. they might actually have to pay the fines.

Personaly in a wierd way I think this is a good thing. Even the IIHF has said that the Euro players are better off playing back home. The majority of all the top Euros all have the same thing in common: they all played the majority of their hockey back home.

By the time Valentenko's Dynamo contract is up he will be 24 and should be primed and ready for NHL action probably more so than he would be if he stays here. I'm hoping in 2-3 years the Habs will have more matured players like a Datsyuk and Gonchar who will show up out of nowhere and make the team. By that time they will be mostly forgetten about and off the prospect charts and will be like an added bonus. In the mean time 2 other non Russians will be getting a chance to get NHL ready in Hamilton. This way when Hamer and Marky's contracts are up the Habs should have multiple D prospects ready to make the jump. Also Valentenko and Perizhogin wont be green and considered rookies to high caliber hockey from being seasoned in Russia. Hopefully both get lots of playing time over there and are on teams that have long playoff runs.

[saskhab]

How are these draft picks wasted? I don't understand that logic... you do realize how many draft picks are "wasted", right? Even if Valentenko were never to come back, I'd say it was a good pick for a 5th rounder... he had potential, things just didn't work out. In that 2006 draft, we already have one that we know didn't work out... Cameron Cepek, our final pick. No big deal, really.

Same with Emelin. That was a 3rd round pick. Again, he's still an organizational asset for us. If he doesn't make it, we really don't lose anything. The fact that we're still talking about him as a possibility nearly 5 years after he was drafted is a positive.

Perezhogin is still an organizational asset, believe it or not. He's our property and his KHL contract ends this summer. If he wants to come back, we could trade him to a team that might want to sign him. This stings a bit if we lose him altogether because he was a 1st rounder, but it was a late 1st round pick and plenty of those don't pan out.

Usually, a good draft is defined as netting 2 average to above average NHLers. Anything above that is very good, to exceptional in terms of a return. If you make 7 picks, that means 5 picks every year can be "wasted" but you still have a successful draft. So far, that means since our most recent rebuilding process began with the 2001 draft, we have had only 1 draft that wasn't a success: 2002. We still got a good player in Round 1 that year in Chris Higgins.

And it's stupid to shut the door on players because of things like this. It sounds like he's supporting his entire family back in Russia with his hockey earnings, and so leaving this year when he's so far down the depth chart in Hamilton makes sense. If he can come back to training camp next year, I say we bring him back.

Sam Pollock forgave Rejean Houle when he defected from the NHL to the WHA. There's no reason we couldn't do the same with Valentenko or any other player that does something similar.

[Colin]

Sam Pollock forgave Rejean Houle when he defected from the NHL to the WHA. There's no reason we couldn't do the same with Valentenko or any other player that does something similar.

Boy did THAT one come to bite us in the ass. If he hadn't forgiven Houle, we might not have gone through our Leaf decade.

[saskhab]

Boy did THAT one come to bite us in the ass. If he hadn't forgiven Houle, we might not have gone through our Leaf decade.

Yeah... or, you know, he came back and got 23 goals and 52 points in helping the Habs post the best record in NHL history that first season back. Point is, he was a much better player at age 27 when he came back than he was at age 23 when he first left. He was a similar contributor to the Habs' 1978 and 1979 Cup winning teams and played a larger role in the 1980 team when the dynasty ended.

Perezhogin right now has 17 goals in 23 KHL games. People forget he was 22 when he left the Habs and he'll turn 25 this summer. If he wants to come back, I think we should consider it, or at least look to trade him to a team that would like to try him out. If a guy can help your team, and you can fit him into your salary structure, then you should make the move. Personal grudges don't get you anywhere.

Valentenko is now in a similar situation. If he wants to come back in the future, no need to close the door because of a decision he made at age 20.

Edited November 2, 2008 by saskhab

[Zowpeb]

Yep, and if the KHL ever expands to the rest of EU or N.A. they might actually have to pay the fines.

Personaly in a wierd way I think this is a good thing. Even the IIHF has said that the Euro players are better off playing back home. The majority of all the top Euros all have the same thing in common: they all played the majority of their hockey back home.

By the time Valentenko's Dynamo contract is up he will be 24 and should be primed and ready for NHL action probably more so than he would be if he stays here. I'm hoping in 2-3 years the Habs will have more matured players like a Datsyuk and Gonchar who will show up out of nowhere and make the team. By that time they will be mostly forgetten about and off the prospect charts and will be like an added bonus. In the mean time 2 other non Russians will be getting a chance to get NHL ready in Hamilton. This way when Hamer and Marky's contracts are up the Habs should have multiple D prospects ready to make the jump. Also Valentenko and Perizhogin wont be green and considered rookies to high caliber hockey from being seasoned in Russia. Hopefully both get lots of playing time over there and are on teams that have long playoff runs.

I think the assumption that the KHL is tremendously better then the AHL is probably a very big stretch. There is certainly some high end talent in the KHL but there is also a lot of fodder...

If Valentekno comes over in 2 years to again try to make the NHL he will likely get sent to Hamilton again...quite simply, his english will not be good enough to allow him to be coached effectively. He'll have another culture adjustment to go through and, frankly, the KHL is only slightly better then the AHL.

Players who come over to play in North America, either in junior or early to the AHL, almost always develop faster.

If he does come over good enough to make the club it will not be with major minutes and certainly won't be a real replacement for Markov or Hamrlik...and ideally, Markov will re-sign.

[saskhab]

The AHL offers this over other leagues: the opportunity to get called up to the NHL. That is the #1 developmental advantage, along with coaches hired by the NHL team.

[CerebusClone]

The AHL offers this over other leagues: the opportunity to get called up to the NHL. That is the #1 developmental advantage, along with coaches hired by the NHL team.

That's true, however there was little chance he would get called up after Carbonneau admitted a few times that there was no room for Valentenko because he gives the priority to veterans under one-way contracts, since he was part of the first wave of cuts for Hamilton-bound players, and also because it takes a lot for players in Carbonneau's doghouse to get another opportunity (Perezhogin couldn't get a shot on an offensive line regardless of how well and how hard he worked with Bonk and Johnson, Samsonov would become a healthy scratch almost every game he didn't score while it took several injuries for A. Kostsitsyn to be called up 2 years ago despite a very strong training camp and being dominant in Hamilton).

So if there's hardly any chance to be called-up, I can easily understand why Valentenko and his family would prefer to finish the season in Russia. Once again, that doesn't mean he won't be at next year's training camp to once again try to make the team; if I'm not mistaken, Valentenko has a clause in his KHL contract that allows him to be in Montreal next season.

[Sir_Boagalott]

I think the assumption that the KHL is tremendously better then the AHL is probably a very big stretch. There is certainly some high end talent in the KHL but there is also a lot of fodder...

If Valentekno comes over in 2 years to again try to make the NHL he will likely get sent to Hamilton again...quite simply, his english will not be good enough to allow him to be coached effectively. He'll have another culture adjustment to go through and, frankly, the KHL is only slightly better then the AHL.

Players who come over to play in North America, either in junior or early to the AHL, almost always develop faster.

If he does come over good enough to make the club it will not be with major minutes and certainly won't be a real replacement for Markov or Hamrlik...and ideally, Markov will re-sign.

I'm not saying the KHL is leaps and bounds better than the AHL but its probably close to being at par or slightly better. After all there are lots of NHL caliber players in both leagues.

My point is that in Russia the Russian players have a huge advantage over being over here.

Your reasons for why its a bad thing are the same reasons I have for it being a good thing.

You mention English and culture shock. In Russia the Russians will understand their coaches perfectly, in AHL not so much. In 3 years am I the only one who thinks his English will be better? He will have had 3 more years to learn English all the while being able to fully understand what their coaches are telling them over in Russia.

Euro players who develop over here never get as good as the would have been had they stayed in Europe. Thats basically a fact and the IIHF even came out with a study that proves it. All the creme de la creme of the Euro players all got that way in Europe. All of them. I highly believe that the IIHF had merit to make such claims in their study.

Plus think of it this way. The N.A. players only have N.A. leagues to reach their potential in. Having your AHL team full of Russians hampers a teams N.A. players development because the Russians actually have another choice of where to develop. The N.A. born players dont have this choice so having the Russian players in Russia only helps everybody because now 3 more N.A. players will be getting their chances to make the NHL in Hamilton all the while the Russians continue to develop over in Russia.

Not to mention in AHL they are trying to devolp everybody so I doubt any 1 player would get 25-30 mins/game at the expense of the other players they are trying to develop but in the KHL they could easily be given a lot more ice time than would be possible in the AHL.

[Zowpeb]

I'm not saying the KHL is leaps and bounds better than the AHL but its probably close to being at par or slightly better. After all there are lots of NHL caliber players in both leagues.

My point is that in Russia the Russian players have a huge advantage over being over here.

Your reasons for why its a bad thing are the same reasons I have for it being a good thing.

You mention English and culture shock. In Russia the Russians will understand their coaches perfectly, in AHL not so much. In 3 years am I the only one who thinks his English will be better? He will have had 3 more years to learn English all the while being able to fully understand what their coaches are telling them over in Russia.

Euro players who develop over here never get as good as the would have been had they stayed in Europe. Thats basically a fact and the IIHF even came out with a study that proves it. All the creme de la creme of the Euro players all got that way in Europe. All of them. I highly believe that the IIHF had merit to make such claims in their study.

Plus think of it this way. The N.A. players only have N.A. leagues to reach their potential in. Having your AHL team full of Russians hampers a teams N.A. players development because the Russians actually have another choice of where to develop. The N.A. born players dont have this choice so having the Russian players in Russia only helps everybody because now 3 more N.A. players will be getting their chances to make the NHL in Hamilton all the while the Russians continue to develop over in Russia.

Not to mention in AHL they are trying to devolp everybody so I doubt any 1 player would get 25-30 mins/game at the expense of the other players they are trying to develop but in the KHL they could easily be given a lot more ice time than would be possible in the AHL.

Certainly they will understand their coaches better but they will still require 1-2 years to adapt to NHL style hockey, culture change and overcome language issues...therefore, they take longer to enter the NHL. The potential slowdown in development is a non-issue...there are numerous examples of European players, Russian or otherwise, who enter the NHL faster if they come over to North American development leagues at the age of 18-19. It's also typically easier for an 18-19 year old to adapt to a culture/language change then it is for a 24-26 year old...

You can point to the option of learning english for 3 more years in Russia as a good thing but it is not a great thing...I know lots of guys who took 12 years of French classes in school and they're useless with French.

I'd be interested to see the IIHF study...but the point is that these prospects get to the NHL FASTER if they come over earlier...my initial thoughts are very skeptical over the IIHF study...I'm not sure how you can "prove" that a kid is better for having stayed in his home country versus the opposite because, frankly, you don't know how good they would have developed otherwise...

I would also suggest that the increased competition from prospects for ice time and improved competition would improve development. Coaching is one aspect for a prospect to improve...but they also benefit from better competition. This would be counter to the argument that prospects are better off if they stay in their home country.

There are also MANY instances of NHL prospects languishing on the 4 lines and press boxes of Super League Euro clubs...especially in Russia.

The Russians like to play games, even more so with the KHL now, to coerce players to sign contracts...don't think for a minute that the Russian mob isn't playing every angle imaginable. They have money to throw at players and the ability to "make" players sign contracts.

It wouldn't surprise me to find out that Valentenko was forced into signing for reasons that are less then savoury...purely speculation mind you, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit...

[saskhab]

The AHL is OVERWHELMINGLY filled with North American players... the percentage of European players that go through multiple years of AHL development is very small. Generally speaking, European leagues do a very good job developing their players. Zetterberg and Datsyuk, for example, went from long shot prospects to NHL stars without any AHL training. Andrei Markov came over here a little earlier than those guys, but adapted quickly.

Generally speaking, European prospects at age 19 are behind their North American counterparts... the junior programs (and national programs) are not as strong. They develop players at a slower pace, but when they come over, they are usually NHL ready.

Valentenko came over a little early. The 2 year rule for signing European draft picks is hurting these players' development. 4 years would be much more realistic.