2010 Hamilton Offseason Discussion

[dlbalr]

I think Picard will make the Habs out of camp. Could see them carrying 8 D when all are healthy, as well. They did that a number of years back... the year they had Niinimaa. And I guess they kind of did that last year... maybe they'll use Picard as a swing man.

I think a lot will depend on how much cap space they want to carry. Assuming Eller's bonuses are hit (as I have in the on-site calculation), there's less than $1 M in space (even less if someone beats out Darche for the 13th forward). Do the Habs want to take 2/3 of that for a healthy scratch? I think he makes the team out of camp with Markov out...and with the injury bug sure to strike, maybe someone else will be hurt by the time he comes back. I've been impressed with him so far this preseason though. If they do decide to keep him up though, there better be another d-man signing an AHL contract.

Also, as I've reported on HW's Twitter page, the Habs are expected to sign Peter Delmas in the coming days. The expectation is that he will not return to junior. However, the holdup apparently is that they're trying to find a home for him - this suggests he won't be playing in Hamilton or Wheeling. This means they'll have to find a place to loan him or do like they did with Loic Lacasse a few years back and stash him in the IHL somewhere.

[BlueKross]

Also, as I've reported on HW's Twitter page, the Habs are expected to sign Peter Delmas in the coming days. The expectation is that he will not return to junior. However, the holdup apparently is that they're trying to find a home for him - this suggests he won't be playing in Hamilton or Wheeling. This means they'll have to find a place to loan him or do like they did with Loic Lacasse a few years back and stash him in the IHL somewhere.

Very interesting. I wonder if a player is sent to the ECHL, how much of his salary is paid by the ECHL team? I expect that his entire salary is paid by the team that owns the contact. Therefore if one was on an AHL contract or better that this player would be like a freebie. There are teams in the ECHL without affiliations. I would expect also in most market places at the Echl or Chl level they could use a freebie. Does anyone know whether a Echl team has to chip in as far as salary is concerned when they get a player from above?

[dlbalr]

Very interesting. I wonder if a player is sent to the ECHL, how much of his salary is paid by the ECHL team? I expect that his entire salary is paid by the team that owns the contact. Therefore if one was on an AHL contract or better that this player would be like a freebie. There are teams in the ECHL without affiliations. I would expect also in most market places at the Echl or Chl level they could use a freebie. Does anyone know whether a Echl team has to chip in as far as salary is concerned when they get a player from above?

This is a complete guess on my part as I don't have a copy of the PHPA CBA (too cheap to pay for one) but I would assume any two-way contract (either NHL/AHL or AHL/ECHL) is paid by whatever team the player is on currently (NHL, AHL, or ECHL). Any one-way deal would paid by the team that gave him the contract (either the Habs with a player like, say, Darche or the Bulldogs for a player such as Grant Stevenson last year). Like I said though, that's a guess. In a situation where the Habs may be trying to find a home outside their affiliation, I'd surmise that the Habs would be kicking in some of the minor league salary to entice the ECHL/CHL/IHL team to take said player.

In terms of actual compensation, any player on loan from the AHL to an ECHL team must make at least $28,000 US (at least that was the number in the now-expired PHPA CBA). At the very minimum, the ECHL team would have to pay that to a player.

[BlueKross]

This is a complete guess on my part as I don't have a copy of the PHPA CBA (too cheap to pay for one) but I would assume any two-way contract (either NHL/AHL or AHL/ECHL) is paid by whatever team the player is on currently (NHL, AHL, or ECHL). Any one-way deal would paid by the team that gave him the contract (either the Habs with a player like, say, Darche or the Bulldogs for a player such as Grant Stevenson last year). Like I said though, that's a guess. In a situation where the Habs may be trying to find a home outside their affiliation, I'd surmise that the Habs would be kicking in some of the minor league salary to entice the ECHL/CHL/IHL team to take said player.

In terms of actual compensation, any player on loan from the AHL to an ECHL team must make at least $28,000 US (at least that was the number in the now-expired PHPA CBA). At the very minimum, the ECHL team would have to pay that to a player.

Is there such a thing as a two-way deal between AHL and ECHL? Don't know? If that is the case, I would expect the contract holder to pay the full amount due the player relative to where he is playing. I don't see an upside for say the ECHL to have players come and go constantly and out of their control unless somebody else is paying the freight.

[dlbalr]

Is there such a thing as a two-way deal between AHL and ECHL? Don't know? If that is the case, I would expect the contract holder to pay the full amount due the player relative to where he is playing. I don't see an upside for say the ECHL to have players come and go constantly and out of their control unless somebody else is paying the freight.

A two-way deal between the AHL and ECHL does exist - players such as Desharnais and Desjardins have had them in recent years...I'd suspect St. Denis as well but I'm not sure. As I noted earlier, the minimum ECHL salary on those contracts is $28k (but can be negotiated higher). The ECHL team would have to pay a pro-rated portion for the amount of time a player is assigned from the AHL. The benefit for those guys getting shuttled back and forth is that the AHL guys would be better than the regulars in their current lineup; I'm sure they'd appreciate the better talent. Same idea as if the Habs shuttled someone back and forth between Hamilton, it'd suck for Hamilton but that player would be better than playing, say, Jimmy Bonneau as a regular.

[BlueKross]

A two-way deal between the AHL and ECHL does exist - players such as Desharnais and Desjardins have had them in recent years...I'd suspect St. Denis as well but I'm not sure. As I noted earlier, the minimum ECHL salary on those contracts is $28k (but can be negotiated higher). The ECHL team would have to pay a pro-rated portion for the amount of time a player is assigned from the AHL. The benefit for those guys getting shuttled back and forth is that the AHL guys would be better than the regulars in their current lineup; I'm sure they'd appreciate the better talent. Same idea as if the Habs shuttled someone back and forth between Hamilton, it'd suck for Hamilton but that player would be better than playing, say, Jimmy Bonneau as a regular.

I think what I am trying to get at is not what the players are getting paid but who is paying the freight. I just see a window, which is win win for the franchises. For example- if Masse is shipped to Wheeling he would get the $28k or thereabout which is about 1/20 of his AHL salary. If Hamilton or Montreal because of what they are saving picked up the 28k, Wheeling now has saved themselves 28k. You take that savings over the ten players that they may have from Nashville and Montreal and Wheeling only has to come up with $5,000 per week. Win Win.

[saskhab]

I think what I am trying to get at is not what the players are getting paid but who is paying the freight. I just see a window, which is win win for the franchises. For example- if Masse is shipped to Wheeling he would get the $28k or thereabout which is about 1/20 of his AHL salary. If Hamilton or Montreal because of what they are saving picked up the 28k, Wheeling now has saved themselves 28k. You take that savings over the ten players that they may have from Nashville and Montreal and Wheeling only has to come up with $5,000 per week. Win Win.

Masse is under a two-way, NHL-AHL contract, so that example doesn't work. Masse will get his full AHL salary this year even if he doesn't make the Bulldogs and is sent to Wheeling. In that case, Hamilton likely saves part of his salary as Wheeling picks up a portion of it (likely the 28k) for the privelege of having him loaned. Hamilton picks up the rest.

I'm not sure if that's how it works, but that's my gut instinct.

A player on an AHL-ECHL contract, like the one we're suggesting for Delmas, or probably the one Bonneau has (or Petruic), could be worked in that scenario you suggested. Maybe Hamilton could offer to pay the ECHL full salary if they felt inclined to do so. The problem is, though, that they'd be on the hook for that $28k PLUS whatever they were paying for his replacement, so it's more expensive for Hamilton to do that. Maybe Montreal would offer to pay for someone else on their roster, I don't know, but that's only a hypothetical, really.

[dlbalr]

Masse is under a two-way, NHL-AHL contract, so that example doesn't work. Masse will get his full AHL salary this year even if he doesn't make the Bulldogs and is sent to Wheeling. In that case, Hamilton likely saves part of his salary as Wheeling picks up a portion of it (likely the 28k) for the privelege of having him loaned. Hamilton picks up the rest.

I'm not sure if that's how it works, but that's my gut instinct.

A player on an AHL-ECHL contract, like the one we're suggesting for Delmas, or probably the one Bonneau has (or Petruic), could be worked in that scenario you suggested. Maybe Hamilton could offer to pay the ECHL full salary if they felt inclined to do so. The problem is, though, that they'd be on the hook for that $28k PLUS whatever they were paying for his replacement, so it's more expensive for Hamilton to do that. Maybe Montreal would offer to pay for someone else on their roster, I don't know, but that's only a hypothetical, really.

I agree with the interpretation on Masse, makes sense to me and prevents ECHL teams from getting free players. Long story short, I suspect that if a player with a two-way AHL/ECHL deal is assigned to the ECHL, the ECHL team pays the specified portion from the actual contract (be it $28k or more). For the record, Urquhart is also on one of these contracts as are the other two noted.

[BlueKross]

I agree with the interpretation on Masse, makes sense to me and prevents ECHL teams from getting free players. Long story short, I suspect that if a player with a two-way AHL/ECHL deal is assigned to the ECHL, the ECHL team pays the specified portion from the actual contract (be it $28k or more). For the record, Urquhart is also on one of these contracts as are the other two noted.

It sounds like we are all guessing here. The players sent to the ECHL are usually fringe players who have not developed yet or have not the potential to develop that much farther. Desharnais would fall into first group and Urquhart probably the second. I just don't see a big enough carrot here to entice me to bring in all these AHL want-to-be's without getting some sort of paddock fee. As for paying for another contract because a player is in the ECHL, Monteal/Hamilton purposely signed more players than they can have at Hamilton.

[saskhab]

This is where partnering with a European club could be beneficial, actually. You have up to 50 contracts... you're intending on only using 23-28 of them for your NHL team. You have a couple of players that are kind of in between... you can't find the minutes for them in Hamilton you want but want him to play at a level equivelant to the AHL. If you could send him to Finland or the Czech Republic to help his game it could be good. Desharnais would probably be that target this year.

Either that, or the Habs should invest in their own ECHL team to fill it with all the Q guys they invite to camp. Put it in Sherbrooke or Trois-Riveries. It'd be interesting to see if that could be successful.

[BlueKross]

Sorry, that sounded like a Habs post moreso than a Bulldogs one, but the idea might be that Hamilton is planning for their season to be without Picard. In that light, adding a body like Petruic to the mix makes more sense. Carle, Henry, Klubertanz, Weber, St. Denis, Urquhart, Nash, Petruic. Petruic could still heading to the ECHL to start, but he'd be in Hamilton training camp to get to know the team and maybe beat someone out of a spot in Hamilton, or step in temporarily when someone is out with a camp injury.

From the announced training camp rosters from the ECHL, Wheeling has a preponderance of defensemen and two goalies that are not owned by Pittsburg. We know that Hamilton will be looking for a spot for Delmas, as well you can add Desnoyer and Basaillon with the names above to indicate the current cache of defensemen. Something has to give here, or it makes no sense for Montreal signing on here.

[dlbalr]

From the announced training camp rosters from the ECHL, Wheeling has a preponderance of defensemen and two goalies that are not owned by Pittsburg. We know that Hamilton will be looking for a spot for Delmas, as well you can add Desnoyer and Basaillon with the names above to indicate the current cache of defensemen. Something has to give here, or it makes no sense for Montreal signing on here.

Bisaillon won't sign if it's for the ECHL, he's basically said so already (RDS interview). As for Desnoyers, I'm not sure they'll give him an ECHL deal either. The main reason (I think) the Habs signed with Wheeling was for the forwards (Bishop, Fortier, Dumont, Masse - 2 or 3 of them will be playing there), not so much for defence and goaltending spots. For that matter, some teams may not have wanted to affiliate with Montreal so they could've just taken what they could get for an affiliate.

Last year, there were games where Montreal/Hamilton weren't supplying any players to Cincy. That alone should have scared off a few teams.

[BlueKross]

Bisaillon won't sign if it's for the ECHL, he's basically said so already (RDS interview). As for Desnoyers, I'm not sure they'll give him an ECHL deal either. The main reason (I think) the Habs signed with Wheeling was for the forwards (Bishop, Fortier, Dumont, Masse - 2 or 3 of them will be playing there), not so much for defence and goaltending spots. For that matter, some teams may not have wanted to affiliate with Montreal so they could've just taken what they could get for an affiliate.

Last year, there were games where Montreal/Hamilton weren't supplying any players to Cincy. That alone should have scared off a few teams.

Wheeling just got 11 more players if their news is accurate. They don't have their roster on the web up-dated from last year. I just don't see Hamilton with a whole lot of extra forwards other than Lacroix. They certianly have extra defense whether they sign the try-outs or not.

[dlbalr]

Wheeling just got 11 more players if their news is accurate. They don't have their roster on the web up-dated from last year. I just don't see Hamilton with a whole lot of extra forwards other than Lacroix. They certianly have extra defense whether they sign the try-outs or not.

Lacroix was released. As for spare forwards, here's a rough projection of the lineup:

Avtsin - Desharnais - Palushaj

Pacioretty - Engqvist - White

Russell - Maxwell - Wyman

Conboy - Fortier - Schultz

Bishop, Bonneau, Dumont, Masse all scratches. 2 or 3 of these gotta go down. (I can't see Bonneau being one of them either.)

Defence, there's currently 8 if Henry is sent down (not including tryouts):

Henry - Weber

St.Denis - Klubertanz

Nash - Carle

Petruic, Urquhart as scratches - 1 will drop down, both if Bisaillon signs.

If Delmas does sign (be it an NHL TW or AHL TW deal) and he gets sent down too, there could be as many as 6 from Hamilton in Wheeling. (Speaking of goaltending, Killeen was sent down so there goes one of the two spots available...There's 2 other goalies on their camp roster too but I suspect they'd be cut if need be, they're there as fillers right now.)

[BlueKross]

Lacroix was released. As for spare forwards, here's a rough projection of the lineup:

Avtsin - Desharnais - Palushaj

Pacioretty - Engqvist - White

Russell - Maxwell - Wyman

Conboy - Fortier - Schultz

Bishop, Bonneau, Dumont, Masse all scratches. 2 or 3 of these gotta go down. (I can't see Bonneau being one of them either.)

Defence, there's currently 8 if Henry is sent down (not including tryouts):

Henry - Weber

St.Denis - Klubertanz

Nash - Carle

Petruic, Urquhart as scratches - 1 will drop down, both if Bisaillon signs.

If Delmas does sign (be it an NHL TW or AHL TW deal) and he gets sent down too, there could be as many as 6 from Hamilton in Wheeling. (Speaking of goaltending, Killeen was sent down so there goes one of the two spots available...There's 2 other goalies on their camp roster too but I suspect they'd be cut if need be, they're there as fillers right now.)

I'm trying to remember how many they kept last year. Actually Henry would make nine defensemen and if you signed one of the try-outs that would be ten.

[BlueKross]

How many players did they carry last year?

[dlbalr]

I'm trying to remember how many they kept last year. Actually Henry would make nine defensemen and if you signed one of the try-outs that would be ten.

Henry's on there, paired with Weber on the first pairing. With a tryout, they'd have 9.

How many players did they carry last year?

Basically, whoever was healthy and wasn't with the Habs. There were few instances where someone aside from Mayer was in Cincy. I think the roster limit is either the same as the NHL (23) or either just above or just below.

[BlueKross]

Henry's on there, paired with Weber on the first pairing. With a tryout, they'd have 9.

Basically, whoever was healthy and wasn't with the Habs. There were few instances where someone aside from Mayer was in Cincy. I think the roster limit is either the same as the NHL (23) or either just above or just below.

Yea , I seen Henry was there, then I had trouble editing the post. SORRY. When did they release Lacroix? I have had my line-ups drawn up for months. I have a 23 man roster in Montreal which is another forward which you have in Hamilton. I see your point about forwards.

[dlbalr]

Yea , I seen Henry was there, then I had trouble editing the post. SORRY. When did they release Lacroix? I have had my line-ups drawn up for months. I have a 23 man roster in Montreal which is another forward which you have in Hamilton. I see your point about forwards.

I'm not sure when they released Lacroix specifically, I only found out about it when we did the live chat with Derek Wills last month (that was our "big scoop"). As for a 23-man roster in Montreal, Martin has said he'll only carry 22 so the extra forward will be sent down...barring injuries of course. (Given the suspension, there'll probably be a 23-man roster through to Friday though.)

[BlueKross]

I'm not sure when they released Lacroix specifically, I only found out about it when we did the live chat with Derek Wills last month (that was our "big scoop"). As for a 23-man roster in Montreal, Martin has said he'll only carry 22 so the extra forward will be sent down...barring injuries of course. (Given the suspension, there'll probably be a 23-man roster through to Friday though.)

As I have said before we have always had trouble dealing with the 23 man roster. Hockey players want to play. Begin, Dandy, Stewart, Laraque,Murray, Sergei K all had issues with not playing. Maybe it is time to go back to 18-20 and have a waiver draft to fill in the rest. This would be one way to create some movement.

[JCPetit]

Lacroix was released. As for spare forwards, here's a rough projection of the lineup:

Avtsin - Desharnais - Palushaj

Pacioretty - Engqvist - White

Russell - Maxwell - Wyman

Conboy - Fortier - Schultz

Bishop, Bonneau, Dumont, Masse all scratches. 2 or 3 of these gotta go down. (I can't see Bonneau being one of them either.)

Defence, there's currently 8 if Henry is sent down (not including tryouts):

Henry - Weber

St.Denis - Klubertanz

Nash - Carle

Petruic, Urquhart as scratches - 1 will drop down, both if Bisaillon signs.

If Delmas does sign (be it an NHL TW or AHL TW deal) and he gets sent down too, there could be as many as 6 from Hamilton in Wheeling. (Speaking of goaltending, Killeen was sent down so there goes one of the two spots available...There's 2 other goalies on their camp roster too but I suspect they'd be cut if need be, they're there as fillers right now.)

It looks like a very strong line-up to me. As I wrote before, it's been a long time since I have seen as much depth in the organization.

[saskhab]

Man, I hope Maxwell gets better linemates than what you've posted, dlbalr. Obviously Russell will be hurt to start the year, or at least he's hurt to start the NHL year.

[dlbalr]

Man, I hope Maxwell gets better linemates than what you've posted, dlbalr. Obviously Russell will be hurt to start the year, or at least he's hurt to start the NHL year.

It was a quick depth chart I threw together - you could probably flip Engqvist and Maxwell.

[BlueKross]

I assume our boys all made it through waivers?

2 Quick Questions

Waiver period is 24 or 48 hrs.?

If you put a player on waivers say at 5 pm., does that time period start from then or does it start from say noon the next day?

I am just trying to understand why there is such a delay from the time they are announced till when we find out they have cleared.

[dlbalr]

I assume our boys all made it through waivers?

2 Quick Questions

Waiver period is 24 or 48 hrs.?

If you put a player on waivers say at 5 pm., does that time period start from then or does it start from say noon the next day?

I am just trying to understand why there is such a delay from the time they are announced till when we find out they have cleared.

Yes, all the Habs' players cleared. As for waivers, the correct answer technically is...both. Here's how:

If waived by noon EST, Monday to Friday, it's a 24 hour waiting time with the claim being awarded (or the player clearing) the next day. If waived by noon EST Saturday or Sunday, it's a 48-hour wait. If a player is waived after noon on a certain day (say Monday at 2:30), it would be processed on the Tuesday and awarded on the Wednesday.