smon Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Powerplay time doesn't equal production for every player/ Hell, if every habs scored 16 goals on the PP we'd be the best offensive team in the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 If is disk if fine this year, whatch him go and you will see why I'm so high on him and I'm still willing to give him a another year or 2 before saying that is a bum and that we should get rid of him. Read my 1st post in this thread about Ryder. I never said I wanted him gone. Just that he has his flaws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuRy Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 A lot of people seem to have forgotten that Ryder played with a hernia during most of the season, which might explain his lack of physical player (even though he was never considered a physical player) but still scored his share of goals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Hear hear. Ryder + herniated disc + sophmore jynx = 30 goals. For God's sake, count your blessings he's on OUR team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koivu-11 Posted July 6, 2006 Author Share Posted July 6, 2006 Ryder is good but we have so many wingers we can ship him somewhere, maybe not right now and i never said he sucked. He ok but also the PP time he has can go to developing our guns. take it how u wish lol. GO HABS GO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zumpano21 Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 (edited) Well here's my shot at the forward lines. The defense is fairly interchangeable in my opinion. Perezhogin - Koivu - Higgins Ryder - Ribeiro - Kovalev Kostitsyn - Plekanec - Morozov* Murray - Bonk - Begin Alex Morozov is an UFA who's been in the Russian Superleague for the last two years but is a consistent point getter. The Pens are having trouble getting him to sign and I think we should ditch Zed and go after him. Edited July 7, 2006 by zumpano21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(zore) Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 (edited) Zednik-Koivu-Kovalev Higgins-Ribeiro-Ryder Plekanec-Bonk-Latendresse Perezhogin-Begin-Kostitsyn Markov-Komisarek Souray-Emelin Boullion-Rivet Huet Danis I think they're strong enough with depth now, to give Zeds another shot with Koivu and Kovalev. I thought that line was excellent, unfortunately it soon burned itself out. If Zednik falters, switch Perezhogin to the first unit. Edited July 7, 2006 by (zore) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koivu-11 Posted July 7, 2006 Author Share Posted July 7, 2006 One problem is perezhogin and Kostitsyn cant play on 4th lines there talent is going no where and there confidence wont be so great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckleberry Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Considering out quiet UFA moves, leaving Ryder off any list is absurd. He is one of our hardest working goal scorers. Come Oct. I predict some people on the page will be denying they ever knocked him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaos Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Read my 1st post in this thread about Ryder. I never said I wanted him gone. Just that he has his flaws. Every player has flaws, why don't you pick on them as well. Koivu is always hurt. Kovalev only shows up when he wants to. Souray looks like a pylon sometimes. Ribeiro can't or won't play defense, etc., etc,. THe only thing Ryder has done is lead the team in scoring over the past two years and all anyone can do it bitch about him. F*ck...no wonder free agents don't want to come here. The guy scores 30 goals, the fans still find something to bitch about, and management doesn't want to give him a raise over his $1 Million dollar salary last year. Ryder has never professed to be a Rick Nash or Ilya Kovalchuk. What he is, is a guy who will score 30 goals a year, play a full season...he's only missed two games in two years, and actually shows up every night unlike alot of guys on the team. Not bad for a guy who drafted in the 8th round, worked his way up threw the minor leagues and is currently only making $1 Million a year. Get off his f*cking back already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chief_balthor Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Every player has flaws, why don't you pick on them as well. Koivu is always hurt. Kovalev only shows up when he wants to. Souray looks like a pylon sometimes. Ribeiro can't or won't play defense, etc., etc,. THe only thing Ryder has done is lead the team in scoring over the past two years and all anyone can do it bitch about him. F*ck...no wonder free agents don't want to come here. The guy scores 30 goals, the fans still find something to bitch about, and management doesn't want to give him a raise over his $1 Million dollar salary last year. Ryder has never professed to be a Rick Nash or Ilya Kovalchuk. What he is, is a guy who will score 30 goals a year, play a full season...he's only missed two games in two years, and actually shows up every night unlike alot of guys on the team. Not bad for a guy who drafted in the 8th round, worked his way up threw the minor leagues and is currently only making $1 Million a year. Get off his f*cking back already. AMEN to that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Every player has flaws, why don't you pick on them as well. Koivu is always hurt. Kovalev only shows up when he wants to. Souray looks like a pylon sometimes. Ribeiro can't or won't play defense, etc., etc,. THe only thing Ryder has done is lead the team in scoring over the past two years and all anyone can do it bitch about him. F*ck...no wonder free agents don't want to come here. The guy scores 30 goals, the fans still find something to bitch about, and management doesn't want to give him a raise over his $1 Million dollar salary last year. Ryder has never professed to be a Rick Nash or Ilya Kovalchuk. What he is, is a guy who will score 30 goals a year, play a full season...he's only missed two games in two years, and actually shows up every night unlike alot of guys on the team. Not bad for a guy who drafted in the 8th round, worked his way up threw the minor leagues and is currently only making $1 Million a year. Get off his f*cking back already. Again, you don't seem to understand what I'm saying. I'm not picking on Ryder, and if I was then you can't say that I've never said anything bad about Souray, Ribeiro, Kovalev, Koivu, Huet, Bulis et al. Argueing about those guys would be going off topic though. Someone brought up Ryder's flaws and I agreed. If you want to yell about how much you hate Ribeiro then post it in the Ribeiro thread. Or go out with Colin for coffee. The fact is that Ryder is a solid 2nd liner who will score about 30 goals a season (not proven, but I expect him to do it), show up consistently, work hard and do a decent job on the powerplay. Some people (like you) claim him to be a legit first line RW. The truth is he's more of a powerplay specialist. The reasons why he cannot be a true first liner are because he can't play defence, isn't all that fast, isn't all that physical, is one-dimensional and doesn't have any noticable asset to his game aside for a good shot. There are no first liners in the entire league who have all those problems. And to everyone who keeps bringing this up - coming out of nowhere, being drafted in the 8th round, almost winning the Calder, working his way up through the minor leagues, etc, etc, etc are completely irrelevant on how good the player is. By the way, which NHL player HASN'T worked their way up through the minor leagues? None, so that wasn't a very good point either. Oh - and Ryder will get a big raise over that $1M. He'll get about the 2.5M he asked for. Maybe a little less since arbitration usually seems to settle on management's side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankhab Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 (edited) You people crapping on Ryder..what a joke. Did you even watch any games last year? Many times, when the team was short due to injuries, he was our only offensive threat. I like our young guys, but other than Higgens, Ryder was the only player who allways looks like he might put the puck in the net. Both Julian and Gainey relied heavily on Ryder last year. So what if 15 of his goals were power play goals, all goal scorers have similar stats. I didn't see anyone else popping in 30 goals for us last year. Maybe if he were french you people, and the Montreal media, might like him better. Well, guys, fact is, he's a newf, like me, and he probably doesn't care what you think anyway. Edited July 7, 2006 by hankhab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 You people crapping on Ryder..what a joke. Did you even watch any games last year? Many times, when the team was short due to injuries, he was our only offensive threat. I like our young guys, but other than Higgens, Ryder was the only player who allways looks like he might put the puck in the net. Both Julian and Gainey relied heavily on Ryder last year. So what if 15 of his goals were power play goals, all goal scorers have similar stats. I didn't see anyone else popping in 30 goals for us last year. Maybe if he were french you people, and the Montreal media, might like him better. Well, guys, fact is, he's a newf, like me, and he probably doesn't care what you think anyway. Reasons why I hate posts like these: 1) That whole "have you even watched the games?" argument has gotten old and has always been dog shit because we obviously have all watched the games and seen everything you have. 2) I'm not french. 3) Even if I was, you're racist. Can't I make the same argument that you only like Ryder because he's a newfie? 4) If Ryder was French I wouldn't like him any more than I do now. Not that I don't like him now, something you misunderstand from my post. Like I said, I find many flaws in my favourite player Bulis' game as well. 5) 15 of 30 goals came on the PP. Name me a healthy first liner with those stats. 6) I agree with his offensive contribution, consistency and use but my entire point was on other areas of his game - defence, physicality and lack of foot speed. 7) Do you even watch the games!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smon Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 I just don't understand why his scoring PP goals is a bad thing! You need some comparisons, all these are roughly similar, either more than half or slightly less: - 27 of Kovalchuk's 52 goals came on the powerplay - 20 of Marleau's 34 goals - 19 of Brind'amour's 31 - 24 of Gionta's 48 - 23 of Heatley's 50 It should be a great thing. Subtract Ryder and you'd notice a weak powerplay. He led the team in gamewinning goals last season too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 I just don't understand why his scoring PP goals is a bad thing! You need some comparisons, all these are roughly similar, either more than half or slightly less: - 27 of Kovalchuk's 52 goals came on the powerplay - 20 of Marleau's 34 goals - 19 of Brind'amour's 31 - 24 of Gionta's 48 - 23 of Heatley's 50 It should be a great thing. Subtract Ryder and you'd notice a weak powerplay. He led the team in gamewinning goals last season too. He's a good addition to the PP. Never said he wasn't but 15 goals at 5-on-5 is a big difference. Look at Gionta. half his goals came on the PP but the 24 on even strength alone would have been something like 2nd on the Habs scorers of last season. The only 2 on that list that are anywhere close to Ryder's 30 goals are Marleau and Brind'Amour both who show leadership, can play defence, can play physical, are fast and also racked up a bunch of assists which Ryder didn't do. That's the point, that true first liners are good both ways and have more than one aspect to their game. Brind'Amour just won the Selke, didn't he? (I can't remember who won but it should have been him if it wasn't.) So yeah, I'm just arguing that Ryder isn't a first line forward, just a solid second line forward. That's not a knock on him. There's no shame in being a legit top 6 NHL forward on the most storied hockey franchise of all time. A good player but overrated. No way did he belong on Team Canada like some Habs fans thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smon Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 I never said he was a first line forward, just a vital member of the team, that's all. Yes technically he plays on what could be called the first line with Koivu and Higgins, but there's more because Kovalev and Koivu haven't clicked much than anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 I never said he was a first line forward, just a vital member of the team, that's all. Yes technically he plays on what could be called the first line with Koivu and Higgins, but there's more because Kovalev and Koivu haven't clicked much than anything. Well yeah, I wasn't really talking to you. Just to people who called him a legit 1st liner. I remember a while ago kaos called him and Higgins our "1st line wingers of the future". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justintb Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 MTL Lineup For 2006-2007 Higgins-Koivu-Ryder Kovalev-Ribeiro-(Gomez,Gionta from NJ) or Sykora Perezhogin-Plekanek-Zednik Murray-Begin-Downey Souray-Rivet Streit-Boullion Markov-Komisarek Emelin? Poti? (LETS HOPE!) Huet -Aebischeir SPLIT DUTY IN GOAL Lets show no shame in montreal. You have to admit that they did catch bad luck in the 06 playoffs (running into a hot goaltender). An interesting point that I must bring up is the fact that in the past two years, Montreal has been eliminated by the teams that went on to WIN the Stanley Cup. I am disappointed in Bob Gainey's decision for not going after some UFA's, however I still believe that help is along the way. There is no way in hell that New Jersey can afford to resign all of that offensive firepower from their first and second lines. I firmly believe that Scott Gomez is the man that Montreal needs. He is known to be a habs killer,loves playing at the Bell Centre, and has proven himself as a complete two way player. We also must take into consideration that Jose Jokeadore was the starting goaltender for 40 some odd games last season, and costed us valuable conference points, which Huet would have prevented if he had been in goal for the duration of the season, which might have made us finish higher in the standings. I respect Gainey's decision in keeping Aebischeir. Having two solid goaltenders is always a good idea, in fact I would like to see a goaltending duo between these two all season long. By keeping the same team, chemistry still exists in the dressing room with no newcomers. If the Habs do happen to go into a mid-season tailspin as they did last season, they have the money to throw around at the trade deadline to possibly get some "Rent-A-Players" (like Carolina did this season). Believe in 2007, Believe in the Drive for 25, Believe in the best damn NHL hockey team ever. My Name is Justin Bhatt, And I bleed Bleu, Blanc, en Rouge until I die GO :hlogo: GO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koivu-11 Posted July 7, 2006 Author Share Posted July 7, 2006 Im just going to say so people don't bash me like i seen happen to BTH Ryder can be expendable in Montreal with all this " Young Talent " Ryder Has no dynamic winger skills for the first line, the same move is " Ryder has the puck tries to go around McCabe Ohh and Loses the puck!" constantly. He Also was -5 at the end of the year, i know Kovalev was minus 1 but hes lazy but has WAY more skill to back up then what ryder has. Ryder can score 30 goals yes he can, so can Koivu ( possible ) kovalev ( VERY POSSIBLE) Higgins (!) Perezhogin ( if he improves this year) and Kostitsyn(well see what he brings to the table) So don't go nuts saying Ryder is THE ALL STAR FIRST LINER MONTREAL NEEDS because hes really not in every other team he would be a 2nd liner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Its real fun to see how some are quick to defend Ryder against any criticism; while on the other hand pulling no punches against Ribeiro. As if both players were at both opposites ends of the performance spectrum; when in reality both are quite close to one another in terms of overall output. If you dont agree why someone is evaluation a player in a way or another, bring arguements to the contrary. If you can't deal with an opinion that goes against what you think of a player, dont slam other users and tell them to stay off X or Y's back. It just reeks of groupie-ism and goes against the point of the forums. This is a forum to discuss hockey, the Habs and Habs players; not to form little judging cliques around which players are "GOOD" and which are "BAD". It is a place to exchange hockey opinions; not to make your own opinion dominant and shut off the opinions that dont fit your own. So leave the manicheanism at the door, please. This is Habs Talk forum; not the Republican vs Democrats US Politics forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaos Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Well yeah, I wasn't really talking to you. Just to people who called him a legit 1st liner. I remember a while ago kaos called him and Higgins our "1st line wingers of the future". There is no reason they can't be. Higgins finished very strong and had this been any previous year without Ovechkin, Crosby, Phaneuf and Lundqvist he probably would have won the calder. HE's an excellent two way winger in the same mold as Jere Lehtinen who plays alongside Mike Modano in Dallas on the first line. Explain to me after watching him for one year why he can't be a first line winger in this league? And explain to me how your going to go out and get a first line left winger to replace him, and don't say a free agent pickup, because Montreal doesn't have the cap room to do that, not mention there are no first line wingers left out there. As for Mike Ryder, this guy scored 30 goals. Now that may be tied for something like 35th in the league, but lets consider who this guy had to play with. Saku Koivu, Montreal's supposed 1st line Centre, which is pretty much a joke, missed alot of time due to injuries. Ryder was then forced to shuffle between Mike Ribeiro and a rookie Thomas Plekanec who while decent players do not hold a candle to guys like Brad Richards, Vincent Lecavalier, Jason Spezza, Eric Staal, Joe THornton, Pavel Datsyuk, Matt Sundin, Joe Sakic or any other superstar that draws checkers away from Ryder. Ryder scored 30 goals on a team that is pretty much devoid of any real superstars. Which makes what Alexander Oveckins acheivements in Washington so spectacular, but thats another point. BUt Ryder isn't like because he doesn't put up huge totals. The guy is a goal scorer. Not a passer or playmaker. Have you seen his release? He scores goals and he is a first line winger. No he's not one of the top 15 forwards in the league but you put him with a real player like one of the guys mentioned above and he easily scores 40+ goals and probably 50. But no, he plays in Montreal, where there is no real centre to give him the puck and he gets shit on for it and its f*cking pathetic. And to say that Ryder is not defensively responsible is pure shit as well. This guy is a +5 in the NHL. He was a +10 in his first year, and played very well this year with the exception of when Koivu and Kovalev were out for an extended time and he was forced to play with Riberio who is extremely weak in the defensive end. The whole team struggled, everybody was a - goals against at that time and very few recovered. He was also a +28 or so in the AHL as well. He knows the way around a defensive zone. On most nights he is Montreal's only consistent offensive threat, yet he continues to get shit on and it pisses me off. Its amazing that everytime a rumour pops up about Montreal making a trade his name always pops up! Why? Because every other GM in the league would love to have this guy. Because he knows how to go to the net and score goals. I hope it never happens, but it'd be interesting to watch all the Ryder haters bitch and moan if he ever left (UFA, trade) for another team and watch him put up 40+ goals playing with an excellent centreman somewhere else. I don't mean this to knock the other players on the Habs roster, because I love most of them, but the fact of the matter is that Koivu and Ribeiro, and Bonk are not top quality centers, while Higgins, Perezhogin, Plekanec and Kostitsyn while excellent young talent and future top 6 wingers have yet to prove elite status. So get off the kids backs. There doing the best they can with what has been built around them, and will continue to get better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Higgins, the jury is still out on. He exceeded expectations this year and I would agree that he has a chance at becoming a legit first line LW. The reason is that he is every bit as good offensively as Ryder yet is very strong defensively and is a great PKer. He's also physical, faster and very smart. A great garbage goal scorer. Of course, Ryder can put up big numbers with big players but so can many people. The big knock on Marc Savard was that all his points were earned by his superstar linemates. Should we argue that Ryder needs superstar linemates to put a 90 point or a 40 goal season? I'm sure Ribeiro can put up Savard-numbers in Atlanta too. But we know that Ribs isn't really a first line. If Ryder needs first line wingers to put up first line numbers then it seems that he is no first liner himself. That is the knock that people use to say Koivu isn't a firstliner, isn't it? Most argue that Koivu is a real first liner but doesn't put up the numbers because he has crap like Higgins and Ryder on his wings. You say that Higgins and Ryder don't do well because they have a 2nd line center between them. I think both are extreme but that Koivu is definitely currently the best player on that line. "Explain to me after watching him for one year why he can't be a first line winger in this league? And explain to me how your going to go out and get a first line left winger to replace him, and don't say a free agent pickup, because Montreal doesn't have the cap room to do that, not mention there are no first line wingers left out there." You're asking me questions that I've already answered. I've explained it several times throughout this thread why I think he isn't a #1 winger. No need to repeat myself. To the second question - I said several times that if I were GM I would have no intentions whatsoever of trading Ryder. I would definitely try and keep him. So there is no need to replace him. About Ryder being +5 - well, he has Higgins and Koivu (two very defensively responsible linemates) on his line. That's what you do with a defensive liability - you put him with two TW guys and his weaknesses are hidden. Not that that's a bad thing. It's a good line that works because the linemates compliment eachother. And yeah, that's pretty much it. When someone has good linemates they're accused of doing nothing and when they have bad linemates people use the excuse that all he needs is good linemates. If the argument is all about the linemates then there's nothing we can argue right now, because Ryder will have the same linemates and the same team when he returns to camp this year. Maybe after this year we'll truly find out who's relying on who. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koivu-11 Posted July 7, 2006 Author Share Posted July 7, 2006 (edited) . Saku Koivu, Montreal's supposed 1st line Centre, which is pretty much a joke, missed alot of time due to injuries. Injuries happen often and koivu first line center a joke, When you watch the games you would have to see what happens not just with the rubber puck. 1.Passion 2.Dedication 3.Skill 4.Leadership 5.Sacrifice Koivu is good in many aspects so hes small and he gets injured im not going to give Koivu problems. When he came back from cancer.Mainly injuries happen often and a lot to all players as soon as i saw what you said i couldn't even read the rest of your post, and Koivu > Ryder Big diffrence don't Compare the Two Edited July 7, 2006 by koivu-11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Also, like you argue that Ryder is goalscorer so it doesn't matter about his playmaking, well Koivu is a playmaker so I guess it doesn't really matter about his goalscoring abilities. Not that he wouldn't have scored 20 goals had be been healthy. It's true that never being healthy is a legit knock on a player but when the injuries are cancer, getting a high stick underneath his visor or something then you can't really blame him as it can happen to anyone. The groin injury he had...well...it was a very common injury at the start of the season. It's true that he would be much better if he was in the line-up more often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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