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Link67    95
59 minutes ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

Tavares would go well with the rest of the Habs that can only get it done with a red maple leaf on their chests.

 

He's always been below the top-tier guys like Crosby, Jumbo Joke, McDavid. I think he's PPG for the next couple years and then slides. Pass.

 

 

wth1.jpg

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Stogey24    221
1 hour ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

Tavares would go well with the rest of the Habs that can only get it done with a red maple leaf on their chests.

 

He's always been below the top-tier guys like Crosby, Jumbo Joke, McDavid. I think he's PPG for the next couple years and then slides. Pass.

What

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DON    9
53 minutes ago, Stogey24 said:

What

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

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What does Tavares have to show for his entire career? Carrying the Islanders on his back in the first round vs the Florida Panthers?

 

Or, like Evander Kane, Keith Yandle, and the other rumor mill stalwarts, is he supposed to be as good as Crosby and McDavid just because he's available? 

 

I can picture a day...far off into the future on a wooded lake in a forgotten town around July...Carey, Shea, and Tavares talking about the time of their lives at the cabin...those two tournaments in the Olympics on a heavily favored team that went all the way. Oh, the memories! 

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I don't blame him for being saddled with a crap team and a crap organization. The whole 'what has he ever done' thing is a shibboleth.

 

Amidst all the hubbub, however, it IS worth noting that his production dipped very substantially, from 86 to 70 and 66 points in the last two seasons. We think of him as an elite PPG+ guy, a superstar...but is he still? Or are we basically talking about Mikko Koivu in his prime, a legit #1C but not really a top-tier force? Sure, he's relatively young, but he wouldn't be the first guy to have a few explosive seasons in his early 20s before settling into a norm of good-not-outstanding production; think Rick Nash or Zach Parise.

 

The question may be unsettling, but it's worth asking.

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Stogey24    221

From december on Tavares had 49 points in his last 55 games... Dudes a bum 

 

 

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We're going to be like Maple Leafs fans in a few years. I'll never forget in 2014, the Laffs were playing the Panthers after the Olympics. They showed a clip of the Canadian players skating their after winning the gold, and many Leafs fans stood up and clapped and yelled and whooped it up for a proxy victory. The Laffs burped up a 3-0 lead in the 3rd and fans brought paper bags to wear over their heads. I can't even remember if the Leafs had any players on that team? But any win is a win. I suppose if Tavares got traded here, we could root for Tavares to be the best center like we do with Price, or the Sens with Karlsson, or the Leafs with Matthews. 

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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I don't blame him for being saddled with a crap team and a crap organization. The whole 'what has he ever done' thing is a shibboleth.

 

 

Fair enough. He wants to stay, so he's not a winner!

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Link67    95

He has averaged a clip under a PPG his entire career, which is more than anyone on this roster or anyone who has been on this roster in what feels like 20 years. A career that might I add is entering its Prime years, with a player who has the tools to remain a significant player because he does not build his game around Speed. Speed is the first thing that goes on a player, and usually when a Player who builds his game from speed loses that, he declines much faster, and when the opposite occurs, they remain effective for much longer. See Jagr, and Chara as prime examples of that, 2 players at 2 different positions who were elite for many reasons other than foot speed, and remain effective long into their twilight years because their greatest strengths never truly dwindle as losing a step does.

 

Point is Tavares could easily be effective until he is 35+ because he is not a point producer because of his speed, but because of his strength, shot, high end individual skill and hockey I.Q. If anyone in this fanbase or in upper management is ready to walk away from a deal that would land him here, after the years of trying to find someone just like him, for any reason other than he doesn't want to come here, or the price to get him is simply astronomical and insane to pay by an standards, then I really don't know what to say.

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Stogey24    221

Good post 

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42 minutes ago, Link67 said:

He has averaged a clip under a PPG his entire career, which is more than anyone on this roster or anyone who has been on this roster in what feels like 20 years. A career that might I add is entering its Prime years, with a player who has the tools to remain a significant player because he does not build his game around Speed. Speed is the first thing that goes on a player, and usually when a Player who builds his game from speed loses that, he declines much faster, and when the opposite occurs, they remain effective for much longer. See Jagr, and Chara as prime examples of that, 2 players at 2 different positions who were elite for many reasons other than foot speed, and remain effective long into their twilight years because their greatest strengths never truly dwindle as losing a step does.

 

Point is Tavares could easily be effective until he is 35+ because he is not a point producer because of his speed, but because of his strength, shot, high end individual skill and hockey I.Q. If anyone in this fanbase or in upper management is ready to walk away from a deal that would land him here, after the years of trying to find someone just like him, for any reason other than he doesn't want to come here, or the price to get him is simply astronomical and insane to pay by an standards, then I really don't know what to say.

 

I'm not slagging him. I'm just suggesting that it would be good to have some understanding of why he's seen a 20-point drop in production over the past three seasons, before we go and anoint him the Saviour. A 66-point C is great and all, but that's quite different from "averaging a clip under a PPG his entire career." Which JT would we be getting?

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16 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I'm not slagging him. I'm just suggesting that it would be good to have some understanding of why he's seen a 20-point drop in production over the past three seasons, before we go and anoint him the Saviour. A 66-point C is great and all, but that's quite different from "averaging a clip under a PPG his entire career." Which JT would we be getting?

 

Where Are They Now? 

 

2011-2012 Edition

 

Claude Giroux-94

Jason Spezza-84

Ilya Kovalchuck-83

Henrik Sedin-81

Patrik Elias-78

Ray Whitney-77

Maria Gaborik-76

 

2012-2013 Edition

 

Martin St. Louis-60 points

Eric Staal-53 

Mike Ribeiro-49

Pavel Datsyuk-49

Claude Giorux-48

Hank Zetterberg-48

Tavares-47

Andrew Ladd-46

Henrik Sedin-45

 

The list gets better as the years go on, but you get my point. I don't remember half of these players being dominant. Four or five years out on a Tavares deal could get really stinky.

 

"His whole career" is classic Link67 exaggeration. Tavares had four or five years out of (8?) that are PPG. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I've seen him take over games. But the time to sell the store was 2014.

 

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Link67    95

is 537 points in 587 games not a clip under a PPG as I suggested? are the stats exaggerated? Because they equate to  0.91 PPG, if that isn't the epitome of a clip under a PPG then please enlighten me as to how I am classically exaggerating.

 

Although I had a feeling he was close to a PPG player his whole career, I still went and did my homework before making the claim in my original post, perhaps you should have done the same instead of now knowing what the front half of your foot tastes like, unpleasant I imagine.

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illWill    392

Re: Tavares

 

Mr. Lovett, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent responses were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

 

Billy Madison is one of my favorite movies

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1 hour ago, Link67 said:

is 537 points in 587 games not a clip under a PPG as I suggested? are the stats exaggerated? Because they equate to  0.91 PPG, if that isn't the epitome of a clip under a PPG then please enlighten me as to how I am classically exaggerating.

 

Although I had a feeling he was close to a PPG player his whole career, I still went and did my homework before making the claim in my original post, perhaps you should have done the same instead of now knowing what the front half of your foot tastes like, unpleasant I imagine.

 

2009-2010 82 games/54 points

2010-2011 79/67

2011-2012 82/81

2012-2013 48/47

2013-2014 59/66

2014-2015 82/86

2015-2016 78/70

2016-2017 77/66

 

I said:

 

"Tavares had four or five years out of (8?) that are PPG."

 

That is exactly correct. If you based your claim on career points instead a season by season tally you're using the wrong methodology. Since you know, we're talking about how many seasons he was PPG.

 

 

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Link67    95
24 minutes ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

 

2009-2010 82 games/54 points

2010-2011 79/67

2011-2012 82/81

2012-2013 48/47

2013-2014 59/66

2014-2015 82/86

2015-2016 78/70

2016-2017 77/66

 

I said:

 

"Tavares had four or five years out of (8?) that are PPG."

 

That is exactly correct. If you based your claim on career points instead a season by season tally you're using the wrong methodology. Since you know, we're talking about how many seasons he was PPG.

 

 

 

First off you are going off-course, I disputed the claim about me, personally where I "Classically Exagerated" when I said 

2 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

He has averaged a clip under a PPG his entire career

 

Which is exactly what the stats I posted immediately after your incorrect claim about me, showcased loud and clear. And in response to that you come up with some "but I said this afterwards and it is also correct" Hoopla? It is irrelevant in its complete form, you made a claim about me and it was wrong, I proved it with stats that line up exactly with what I SAID, and had nothing to do with what you were going to say, that's all there is to it.

 

Can anyone explain to me how someone says "Player A is a clip under a PPG his whole career because he has a career PPG of 0.91" and would be considered Exaggerating by any stretch of the imagination? Doubtful..

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14 minutes ago, Link67 said:

 

First off you are going off-course, I disputed the claim about me, personally where I "Classically Exagerated" when I said 

 

Which is exactly what the stats I posted immediately after your incorrect claim about me, showcased loud and clear. And in response to that you come up with some "but I said this afterwards and it is also correct" Hoopla? It is irrelevant in its complete form, you made a claim about me and it was wrong, I proved it with stats that line up exactly with what I SAID, and had nothing to do with what you were going to say, that's all there is to it.

 

Can anyone explain to me how someone says "Player A is a clip under a PPG his whole career because he has a career PPG of 0.91" and would be considered Exaggerating by any stretch of the imagination? Doubtful..

 

"Classically" exaggerated? I didn't know you wrote in Latin or Attic Greek. I can't even read to the bottom of this. Time to refresh the ignore list...

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Alrighty let's have some fun.

 

Montreal is in win now mode, right?

 

To Montreal

- Henrik Zetterberg

 

To Detroit

- Artturi Lehkonen

- 1st Round Pick 2018

- 1st Round Pick 2019

 

The Detroit Red Wings are $3.9M over the cap and still have someone to sign. They need to cut some of their cap to play this season. They are also in a rebuilding stage (but in denial about it) so they would need skilled young players.

 

Zetterberg is 36 with four more years left on his contract but the deal was signed before he was 35 and the final two years are at only $1M (he could also play all four years just fine). He had 67 points last year and can play left wing and centre.

 

Zetterberg allows you flexibility with Alex Galchenyuk. He can either be your #1 centre with Chuck on the LW, or he creates a 1A/1B situation with Pacioretty with Chuck at centre. Losing Lehkonen sucks but Montreal needs a Cup in the next two years. With Zetterberg, Montreal could potentially have a Top 10 offence in the league. There's no real sign of his game dropping as he had his best offensive season since 11-12 despite the Wings having their worst season in like 30 years. While only six points in his last 14 playoff games, he's in the past been a real gamer. Multiple Cups. He might be real hungry to win another before he retires.

 

If this team is going after the Cup, those first round picks won't mean much. This is about getting one of the best in the league, maybe older, but still elite. Top 25 in the league, 13th among centres. You want a top centre? Here's what you can do to get it. It ain't Tavares but that's a pipe dream anyway. This is realistic, and could make the Habs an actual threat in the East.

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Link67    95
13 minutes ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

 

"Classically" exaggerated? I didn't know you wrote in Latin or Attic Greek. I can't even read to the bottom of this. Time to refresh the ignore list...

 

Ah yes, in any form of discussion board, when someone resorts to nothing left but trying to attack some sort of grammar, it is also the exact moment they are soundly defeated in a discussion. Go ahead and do what you gotta do with your ignore list, I certainly won't miss being quoted or misrepresented by you in any way shape or form, I will however lightly miss the opportunity to shove your foot in your mouth with my response to it.

 

And in a Final Bow to you, I invite you to type the word "Classically" in the text window and let me know if it is underlined in Red. Actually don't let me know, I wouldn't want to be responsible for having shoved both your feet in your mouth in one discussion, how are you supposed to walk out of here with any dignity left after that, or walk out of here at all for that matter...

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Link67    95
23 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

Alrighty let's have some fun.

 

Montreal is in win now mode, right?

 

To Montreal

- Henrik Zetterberg

 

To Detroit

- Artturi Lehkonen

- 1st Round Pick 2018

- 1st Round Pick 2019

 

The Detroit Red Wings are $3.9M over the cap and still have someone to sign. They need to cut some of their cap to play this season. They are also in a rebuilding stage (but in denial about it) so they would need skilled young players.

 

Zetterberg is 36 with four more years left on his contract but the deal was signed before he was 35 and the final two years are at only $1M (he could also play all four years just fine). He had 67 points last year and can play left wing and centre.

 

Zetterberg allows you flexibility with Alex Galchenyuk. He can either be your #1 centre with Chuck on the LW, or he creates a 1A/1B situation with Pacioretty with Chuck at centre. Losing Lehkonen sucks but Montreal needs a Cup in the next two years. With Zetterberg, Montreal could potentially have a Top 10 offence in the league. There's no real sign of his game dropping as he had his best offensive season since 11-12 despite the Wings having their worst season in like 30 years. While only six points in his last 14 playoff games, he's in the past been a real gamer. Multiple Cups. He might be real hungry to win another before he retires.

 

If this team is going after the Cup, those first round picks won't mean much. This is about getting one of the best in the league, maybe older, but still elite. Top 25 in the league, 13th among centres. You want a top centre? Here's what you can do to get it. It ain't Tavares but that's a pipe dream anyway. This is realistic, and could make the Habs an actual threat in the East.

 

Hmmm

 

While I have no issue welcoming Zetterberg here with open arms, I do have issue with giving up that much of our future for him. While I do believe he is capable of a couple more 50 point seasons, anything over that would be a stretch, although not impossible. The value of what you are giving for him seem too high to me for a pretty good chance at 2 solid years from a player, with anything more than that being a low percentage chance.

 

And if I am being realistic, Zetterberg seems like the Detroit or Retire kind of guy, much like many from that Guard were. I doubt he would want to leave, and I doubt Holland would force him after all he has done. Better chance he ends up in Sweden for a year or 2 than he does in another NHL team if you ask me, but nothing is certain, i'm merely guessing the most likely outcome.

 

I'd love to have him here if he wanted to, but I certainly wouldn't give up a guy like Lehkonen and two 1st rounders for him at this point. I'm not saying either, that a package for him has to be some junk like Shaw and a 2nd or anything silly. But Lehkonen could easily be outscoring Zetterberg in 2 years time, how small are we trying to make this window exactly? the window should be as long as Price is under 35, Lehkonen might not help as much as Zetterberg in year 1 or 2 of that window, but he certainly helps more in year 3, 4 and 5. It has to be some other sort of package, Lehkonen cannot be part of a deal that doesn't at least see us getting our hands on a player in his Prime at the very least.

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1 hour ago, Link67 said:

 

Ah yes, in any form of discussion board, when someone resorts to nothing left but trying to attack some sort of grammar, it is also the exact moment they are soundly defeated in a discussion. Go ahead and do what you gotta do with your ignore list, I certainly won't miss being quoted or misrepresented by you in any way shape or form, I will however lightly miss the opportunity to shove your foot in your mouth with my response to it.

 

And in a Final Bow to you, I invite you to type the word "Classically" in the text window and let me know if it is underlined in Red. Actually don't let me know, I wouldn't want to be responsible for having shoved both your feet in your mouth in one discussion, how are you supposed to walk out of here with any dignity left after that, or walk out of here at all for that matter...

 

Man, relax. I don't know what's up with you and Lovett, but for my part, all I said was that his production has dropped substantially over the last two seasons. Now that's just a fact, and his career points-per-game average occludes that fact rather than bringing it to the fore. Therefore, i suggested that we might want to think harder about the difference between an 80-point and a 66-point C, and where we see Tavares falling on that continuum in the future as opposed to the past. I'd also feel better if there were an explanation for his rather dramatic drop in production, because Lovett is correct on the following specific point: we've seen other stars have explosive early careers before settling into lesser production levels, and there is no particular reason to assume that Tavares is different.

 

Just to be clear, I'm not saying this to attack anybody (including Tavares), nor to score cheap debating points. Why would I? What do I care, particularly, about John Tavares? But there is often a gap between a player's rep and his actual performance, and I find it interesting to consider that this might be the case with him. That's all. (And I certainly wouldn't deny that even as a 66-point guy, he would still be the best C the team has had since pre-injury Koivu).

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I don't know how you argue someone is a PPG player when he's only gotten a PPG four years out of eight, and not come close in the last two years?

 

I guess Zetterberg is a PPG player because he has 904 points in exaclty 1000 games. Spezza, too. 862/912. Hey, with that logic, let's just give the 8.5 in cap space to Jagr!

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Link67    95
3 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Man, relax. I don't know what's up with you and Lovett, but for my part, all I said was that his production has dropped substantially over the last two seasons. Now that's just a fact, and his career points-per-game average occludes that fact rather than bringing it to the fore. Therefore, i suggested that we might want to think harder about the difference between an 80-point and a 66-point C, and where we see Tavares falling on that continuum in the future as opposed to the past. I'd also feel better if there were an explanation for his rather dramatic drop in production, because Lovett is correct on the following specific point: we've seen other stars have explosive early careers before settling into lesser production levels, and there is no particular reason to assume that Tavares is different.

 

Just to be clear, I'm not saying this to attack anybody (including Tavares), nor to score cheap debating points. Why would I? What do I care, particularly, about John Tavares? But there is often a gap between a player's rep and his actual performance, and I find it interesting to consider that this might be the case with him. That's all. (And I certainly wouldn't deny that even as a 66-point guy, he would still be the best C the team has had since pre-injury Koivu).

 

I don't have an issue with what you said other than I don't particularly agree, which is fine, its a discussion forum and opinions will vary. Lovett tried to personally call me out on something and label me something , and the facts I presented showed the complete opposite, I am not going to let something like that slide without my 2 cents. As for your point, I explained why I thought Tavares would remain an effective player until his mid 30s already, and would therefore not in the slightest of ways avoid aggressively pursuing him on the notion he MAY decline in his early 30s. In my opinion there is way more chance we benefit greatly from his presence on the team, than there is of him suddenly falling off a cliff at age 32, and I would personally take those chances any day.

 

His point totals eclipse everyone on this team, his ability to produce those points from our position of greatest need is also of great importance. How the heck anyone would pass on a player like Tavares because of some doomsday prophecy of his future production is mind boggling. This coming from the same fan base who is angry we didn't pay a 31 year old 7 million for 5 years? REALLY?

 

I've said it earlier and I'll say it again, There is no reason not to try and acquire John Tavares other than He does not want to come here, or the Islanders don't want any package we could put together for him. Our interest in him, a true and elite #1C entering his prime, should be absolute, period.

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Link67    95
3 hours ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

I don't know how you argue someone is a PPG player when he's only gotten a PPG four years out of eight, and not come close in the last two years?

 

I guess Zetterberg is a PPG player because he has 904 points in exaclty 1000 games. Spezza, too. 862/912. Hey, with that logic, let's just give the 8.5 in cap space to Jagr!

 

Jesus I said HE IS A CLIP UNDER A PPG, how hard is it to read that properly, and how many times am I going to have to explain it to you, it is exactly what he is..

 

Also every person you just mentioned is ALSO a clip under a PPG player, perfect examples of players who would have greatly benefited us if they were our #1C when they were 26 years old. You starting to see why it is so important NOT to pass on a guy like Tavares yet?

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DON    9
Posted (edited)

I wonder what else Oilers GM would demand with Gallagher for Hopkins? Habsterix posed it, sounds good to me, unless Oiler demand would be too much.

"I still feel like a deal based on RNH and Brendan Gallagher (add here or there) makes a lot of sense for both teams."

Edited by DON
2nd thought
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