We need to finish 30th one or two times.

[kaos]

I'd prefer if the time we finish 30th isn't during a season in which we occupied the 4th pkace in the conference at the half-way point.

Good point

[Wamsley01]

I'd prefer if the time we finish 30th isn't during a season in which we occupied the 4th pkace in the conference at the half-way point.

Here here but even if we jettisoned Kovy/Koivu/Samsonov/Souray this team is still not bad enough to finish last overall. In the Kovalchuk draft we stunk and we still finished up with 8th pick.

We would have to let Markov walk, and hope that Higgins/Lats/Komy/Kosty/Chips/Perez/Price all stink.

Personally for me, that is the extreme opposite of what I would like to happen.

Edited February 15, 2007 by Wamsley01

[Doktor Kosmos]

True that, but I'm still very disappointed with the team for not being able to get out of this horrible slump. They need to start working whatever magic they were capable of in the first half of the season, or else we won't even get the chance to loose in the first round this year.

I don't know what I am to make of this slump. I am wondering whether I should be as sceptical about Carbo's abilities to coach an NHL team as I am right now. I'm leaning more towards thinking that our offense stinks though. It absolutely stinks that as soon as Koivu stops producing goals and points, we can't seem to be able to score if our lives depended on it. We need offense from others than just Koivu and Souray.

I'm starting to loose my patience. I'm just so sick and tired of rooting for a team that hasn't accomplished diddely squat in 14 years.

[JoeLassister]

You are saying the way to rebuild is through the draft, with top Draft picks. All those guys are top draft picks, and only 2 of them won the cup. Losing is no guarantee of future success.

Tampa Bay did not win the CUp because of Lecavalier. They won the Cup because they drafted Richards/Kubina with value picks, they picked up the MVP off the junk heap as a Free Agent, they traded an average young defenseman Paul Mara for Nikolai Khabibulin, they stole Dan Boyle out from under FLorida's nose.

All those other moves were more responsible for the Cup then the Micheal Jordan of hockey.

Maybe but most of these are players that everybody will always remember.

I don't say if we draft the #1 he will win the cup. But he would certainly interest some UFA to play with him, then will be traded for a young prospect or another good player without giving several players and/or draft picks in return. You can't build a team by giving a good prospect and a 1rst rounder in exchange of a former #1 overall pick. It has to start with the #1 overall pick ON YOUR TEAM. And we never have this kind of player in Montréal, exept Patrick Roy, who wasn't even a #1 overall pick.

Right now, Therrien in Pittsburgh could have any player in the league by trading his 2 stars in Crosby and Malkin. When Malkin will have done his time with the Pens, then he will be traded for a player AS GOOD AS HIM. Markov is the only one in the team right now that i would not be pissed if he was traded for a player as good as him. For ALL THE OTHERS, i'd not be happy to see them traded for an equivalent player. I want some players BETTER than them.

Back to the red sentence : If I was Datsuyk right now where do you think i'd like to play next season as a centre player? WASHINGTON DUDES !!!! I would want to play with this guy tomorrow morning. Ovechckin will bring a real 1rst line center. Zubrus plays well, but it's much because of Ovechkin.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Good thread.

I'd add that you can't simultaneously argue

A. that the Habs' drafting sucks and

B. that we should therefore finish last overall so as to secure a higher draft position.

If A is true then we will likely end failing to take full advantage of B, not to mention failing to properly develop the talent we acquire - since scouting is one facet of the much wider process of *player evaluation* that distinguishes great teams from mediocre.

You also can't argue A and B while ALSO arguing, C., that the Habs have tons of good young talent in the system, which is a very commonly-held view around here.

Personally I think we DO have good young players and are mucking up their development. So neither A nor B holds much water.

Edited February 15, 2007 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Wamsley01]

True that, but I'm still very disappointed with the team for not being able to get out of this horrible slump. They need to start working whatever magic they were capable of in the first half of the season, or else we won't even get the chance to loose in the first round this year.

I don't know what I am to make of this slump. I am wondering whether I should be as sceptical about Carbo's abilities to coach an NHL team as I am right now. I'm leaning more towards thinking that our offense stinks though. It absolutely stinks that as soon as Koivu stops producing goals and points, we can't seem to be able to score if our lives depended on it. We need offense from others than just Koivu and Souray.

I'm starting to loose my patience. I'm just so sick and tired of rooting for a team that hasn't accomplished diddely squat in 14 years.

It has been frustrating, the only time I have ever outright supported tanking was when the Raptors lost Carter for the year and Lebron James was the prize. Other than that, I have never supported losing to get better.

[JoeLassister]

Here here but even if we jettisoned Kovy/Koivu/Samsonov/Souray this team is still not bad enough to finish last overall. In the Kovalchuk draft we stunk and we still finished up with 8th pick.

We would have to let Markov walk, and hope that Higgins/Lats/Komy/Kosty/Chips/Perez/Price all stink.

Personally for me, that is the extreme opposite of what I would like to happen.

I don't either wanna see it happen, but i think this is the only way to build a competitive team for the next 10 years. I don't want the habs to be competitive for one Stanley Cup and then miss the playoffs the next year.

Name me only 1 guy in the whole Habs system who would be as good at the end of his carreer than Lecavalier, Sakic or even Iginla. I can't see none of them for the moment...

Edited February 15, 2007 by JoeLassister

[Wamsley01]

Maybe but most of these are players that everybody will always remember.

I don't say if we draft the #1 he will win the cup. But he would certainly interest some UFA to play with him, then will be traded for a young prospect or another good player without giving several players and/or draft picks in return. You can't build a team by giving a good prospect and a 1rst rounder in exchange of a former #1 overall pick. It has to start with the #1 overall pick ON YOUR TEAM. And we never have this kind of player in Montréal, exept Patrick Roy, who wasn't even a #1 overall pick.

Right now, Therrien in Pittsburgh could have any player in the league by trading his 2 stars in Crosby and Malkin. When Malkin will have done his time with the Pens, then he will be traded for a player AS GOOD AS HIM. Markov is the only one in the team right now that i would not be pissed if he was traded for a player as good as him. For ALL THE OTHERS, i'd not be happy to see them traded for an equivalent player. I want some players BETTER than them.

Back to the red sentence : If I was Datsuyk right now where do you think i'd like to play next season as a centre player? WASHINGTON DUDES !!!! I would want to play with this guy tomorrow morning. Ovechckin will bring a real 1rst line center. Zubrus plays well, but it's much because of Ovechkin.

Players will probably not come here. We cannot even talk homegrown kids to come back here. But that is when you have to take your money and spend it wisely. Pay $2 million for a Ray Whitney instead of $3.5 Million for Samsonov. Pay $2.5 Million for Slava Kozlov instead of $4million for Alex Kovalev.

Buffalo has done a great job drafting but they pulled their 2 best players out of their ass. They stole Drury from Calgary and Briere from Phoenix.

It is Gainey's job to sell High on his assets and buy low on other people's. The reason we are where we are is because we have not had much success in Free Agency and we have not uncovered any gems in trades.

We have made some good trades, but not any Briere/Drury type steals.

I don't either wanna see it happen, but i think this is the only way to build a competitive team for the next 10 years. I don't want the habs to be competitive for one Stanley Cup and then miss the playoffs the next year.

Name me only 1 guy in the whole Habs system who would be as good at the end of his carreer than Lecavalier, Sakic or even Iginla. I can't see none of them for the moment...

Maybe Price. He did step up huge on the biggest stage for players his age.

It looks like we have a ton of depth but no superstars. And unfortunately that has been the problem that this organization has had to deal with for the last 15 years.

But like I said in my previous post, Daneil Briere was considered a washout by Phoenix 4 years ago and now the kid is tearing up the NHL. So as much as I can say that we have no Superstars in the minors I have not seen Grabovski play every night, I have not watched Big and Lil Kosty play every night and all I have seen of Halak was him standing on his head in the AHL All-Star game. So what does my opinion really mean.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I don't either wanna see it happen, but i think this is the only way to build a competitive team for the next 10 years. I don't want the habs to be competitive for one Stanley Cup and then miss the playoffs the next year.

Name me only 1 guy in the whole Habs system who would be as good at the end of his carreer than Lecavalier, Sakic or even Iginla. I can't see none of them for the moment...

You may say I'm crazy, but based on Higgins' performance in the second half of 2006, and in the first 30 games of this season, and bearing in mind that he was captain of the US junior team, I think that Higgins has at least a chance of becoming a player in the range of a Brad Richards. I don't think that's utterly insane.

And Latendresse has the potential to be a major power-forward in the NHL - maybe not Iginla, but high-impact.

[Wamsley01]

You may say I'm crazy, but based on Higgins' performance in the second half of 2006, and in the first 30 games of this season, and bearing in mind that he was captain of the US junior team, I think that Higgins has at least a chance of becoming a player in the range of a Brad Richards. I don't think that's utterly insane.

And Latendresse has the potential to be a major power-forward in the NHL - maybe not Iginla, but high-impact.

It is funny, because before Higgins got hurt he was drawing Sakic comparisons, and although that is lofty...he was playing his ass off. Disappointing considering how much of an impact he had on our team in the first 2 months.

Lats could go either way, I just worry about the talent he will be surrounded with. Everybody bashes Micheal Ryder but he has always been made in the Andreychuk mode. No center, no production.

[sbhatt]

No center, no production.

Hit the nail right on the head....hard to judge a winger until you see them play with a suitable center.

[JoeLassister]

Hit the nail right on the head....hard to judge a winger until you see them play with a suitable center.

Damn true. And we drafted Price instead of Kopitar... Maybe Price will be amazing, I hope so, but we have Halak who's awesome and 2 good veterans. We missed the boat with our big RH center player.

[BTH]

lmao...

first of all, you're only embarassing yourself by tanking. A classy guy like Gainey wouldn't even consider it.

then, it doesn't take high draft picks to become a contender. If you have good scouts (which we do) you can get a good player with any pick, in any round. Saying you need a top 3 pick to get a superstar is just blind.

then there's the fact that we have so much prospect depth that upgrading is much easier for us than it would be for countless other teams...

also, we DO have guys in the system with high potential, even if you don't know about them. Kostitsyn (Andrei, though his brother is looking to be a real reliable 2nd liner), Price, Latendresse, Higgins, Komisarek & Halak are examples. Perezhogin can definitely turn out to be another Maxim Afinogenov.

plus, we're already only a player or two away from being a serious threat, there's no point restarting once we've already gotten this close...

and like I said, the whole idea of tanking is laughable and pathetic... The Montreal Canadiens will never let something like that tarnish their record. :hlogo:

[habs rule]

This is how big teams get their big players. Why do you think Pittsburgh are so good right now? Because they finished last almost every season since 2002.

How do you want to get big time players by finishing 15th every seasons? You'll always get the 15th best player available...

The problem in Montréal is : Nobody wants to see us finishing in the bottom ranking. If that happens, everyone will scream for a change of GM, Coach, goaler, top forwards, even Youpie will have to go.

So the team never upgraded, never won any cup since a decade, never finished at the very end of the ranking and everybody is happy because it's hot to watch hockey game at spring.

Results : no big draft pick (maybe except Carey Price... we'll see...) in 2000, no Heatley, no Gaborik but a Marcel Hossa, in 2001 no Kovalchuck, no Spezza but a Komisarek (not so bad there), in 2002 no Nash, no Bouwmeester but a Chris Higgins (not so bad there too but...) in 2003 no Staal, no Fleury but a Kots, in 2004 no Ovechkin, no Malkin but a Chipchura, in 2005 thanks there was a lottery but no 3 tickets no chance for Crosby or J. Johnson, same for 2k6 no E. Johnson, no J. Staal, no Teows but Fisher...

We NEED to finish in the last spots to upgrade. NOBODY will help us to upgrade by trading big players in Montréal for our 15th draft picks

On the other hand, no cup won since a decade = less chances to see a UFA of quality sign here in Montreal because he feels this is our year...

How do you feel about that?

i think it is crap. take a look at the habs of the 70's and how many 1st overall picks they had. 1 guy lafleur and they traded for that. this team has always been built on superior scouting coaching and management. the other teams have never wanted to help us and they never will. We are the HABS. What you are proposing would cause rioting in the streets, people would jump off buildings. We must be better than the rest we get no easy outs it is just a fact of life.

[JoeLassister]

When's the last time the Leafs finished first? When's the last time the Leafs finished last? When's the last time the Leafs won the Cup ?

So ok guys, i'll trust you. Let's continue to fight with our 8 forwards out ouf 12 who would have difficulty to play on the 2nd line of any other team and if they rock the house, then we're gonna be strong enough to have 6 or maybe 7 40 pts players, but none with 80 pts.

Let's hope our 10th choices become VERY GOOD, very much better than Higgins or Komi, cuz if not, i think the Leafs will win the Cup before the Habs...

[Doktor Kosmos]

Personally I am a of the opinion that your first round draft picks are NOT the only ones who can end up being franchise players. Luc Robitaille always comes to my mind, and in recent years also guys like Henrik Zetterberg and Pavel Datsyuk in Detroit. Meanwhile, through the years we've seen guys like Daigle being chosen #1 overall, just to name one.

I'd say that guys like Ovechkin and Crosby are the exceptions; far, far, far from everyone looks that good from even before they're drafted.

Edited February 16, 2007 by Doktor Kosmos

[JMMR]

Well Datsyuk is a special case because no one thought he was going to come to North America otherwise he would have been drafted younger and with a higher pick.

[BTH]

Let's continue to fight with our 8 forwards out ouf 12 who would have difficulty to play on the 2nd line of any other team

If you want credibility, you shouldn't pull "facts" like this out of thin air.

Koivu, Kovalev, Higgins, Samsonov, Perezhogin and Latendresse are 6 guys right there that would play on the top 6 on basically any other team (aside for chemistry reasons). Believe it or not, our forward depth is excellent.