Game Thread | Senators @ Montréal | 09/22/07

[OneSharpMarble]

First, if you want to compare him to Ribs, Ribs had more points last year then Pleks, and was a plus player. Ribs also played less minutes. So.. blah blah to you.

Big deal this is what Plekanecs second full season? Half of last season he was stuck with the two dead weights. Who did Riberio play with last season?

Second. I never said I wanted Ribs back, I am just saying that Pleks has never even achieved what Ribs did, yet you somehow have annoited Pleks and the second coming of Guy Lafleur. Bogus I say. Pleks is a great 3rd line center, a decent 2nd line center. He is not an elite center.

I hope he never achieves Riberios infamy. I never "annoited" him anything, but I did say he was the future of this team and he is. He is a comparable talent to Higgins and Komisarek. No he is a perfect 2nd line center and he fits there well, Koivu is an adequate 1st line center when he has equally talented wingers.

We all get that you hate Riberio, for what ever reason. That is your right. I don't really care. What I do care about is the Habs and Ribs is no longer on this team. Pleks is and if he is the guy you think will turn this ship around, well, I am glad you are not the GM.

Turn what ship around? Are we careening down the standings? I am glad you're not GM or else we'd be up to our necks in the Riberios, Kovalevs and Yashins of this league.

As I said, we do have some good young players. I just don't see any sure bets. Every team (except maybe the leafs) have a bunch of young players that COULD turn into gold. I don't see any of our doing that yet. I would give the best chances to Higgins and Lats myself. Certainly none of them are giving me any reason for me to believe they will crush the league THIS year.

Hence, I will stick to my view that this is currently an average team and set my hopes from there.

An average team you say? But surely after last years performance I thought for sure a 10 year dynasty at least!

And yes thanks for pointing out any player could turn out great or terrible and that the laws of physics are still in effect.

[BTH]

The Ribs comments aside (you have a very negative view of Ribs, not validated by his numbers over the years), I think you are dreaming if you think Pleks will ever be better then Koivu.

Koivu is a low end first line center. If we had two like him, I would be very happy. We don't.

When did I ever say Plekanec will be better than Koivu? Plekanec is a great third line center or a legit second line center. Koivu is a great second line center or a legit first line center.

Which one of Ribs's negative qualities can you prove wrong with "the numbers." Getting rid of Ribeiro was a step in the right direction for this team just as much as trading Theodore was, or waiving Dagenais was. He is a powerplay specialist, he should be on the fourth line with PP time - and that would be only if he didn't have an attitude problem and actually worked hard. As things are, I just don't want that player on my team.

[Wamsley01]

This team's success lies with the system. Simple as that.

This is not Fantasy hockey. Breaking down individual players accomplishments leads you to poor predictions like the Hockey News provides. Who thought Eric Staal would get 100 points 2 seasons ago? He looked overmatched in his rookie year and was unnoticed while he improved during the strike year in the AHL. Cam Ward? He looked like a goalie who could put his team on his back and win a Cup didn't he. The Sabres. I guess everybody knew that Briere would go from a 65 point guy to a 95 point guy, or that Tomas Vanek would explode on the scene, or Ryan Miller would become a top 5 goalie. (Remember that Team USA left him off their Olympic roster for Robert Esche, John Grahame and Dipietro during his breakout year)

I guess breaking down New Jersey's roster last season player by player will lead you to the conclusion that they had no shot last season. Not one player broke 70 points, only 1 player had 30 goals and they had 3 20 plus goal scorers. But they have taught a system and remained faithful to this system and have Martin Brodeur in net. They finished in 2nd in the East.

Dallas is the same thing, no scorers, great goalie 107 points. Vancouver? Sedin twins and Luongo, 3rd place in the West.

It is about the system. Higgins and Pleks and Lats do not need to get 80 points for Montreal to finish in the top 4. All they need to do is fill their role in Carbonneau's system. Look at the players that have been added in the last 2 seasons. Higgins, Plekanec, Lapierre, Latendresse, Chipchura, Smolinski. They are all very responsible defensively in their own end and all will log alot of minutes on the penalty kill. In the mold of Gainey, Carbo, Muller and Jarvis maybe???? The Habs continued to send down Kostitsyn until he learned the system in Hamilton amongst the pleading of people on this board to leave him in the NHL.

It is all consistent with what they are trying to achieve. Their number 1 prospect had a ridiculous 2007 season and looks like a franchise goalie in the mold of Brodeur and Luongo. They also have great depth in goal with Halak, Huet and Price. Doesn't that look familiar? They have also drafted defencemen exclusively the last couple of years. This shows me everything I need to know about this team. They are building with a proven winning blueprint. And that is all you can ask for as a fan.

This team DOES NOT NEED a Lecavalier to win or compete for the East. They DO NOT NEED a Guy Lafleur to win a Stanley Cup.

It need a team that buys into what Gainey and co. are selling. They need Higgins, Plekanec, Kostitsyn, Latendresse, Komisarek to keep improving, they need Chipchura and O'Byrne to show that they belong in the NHL and they need Price/Halak to push Huet to a higher level and then to the point that Montreal feels comfortable trading Huet to fill another need. Are all of these things so ridiculous to attain? Add in the fact that they have Cap room and 2 tradeable assets in Ryder and Huet and maybe a surprise like Higgins making the leap, or Price stepping in as the starter and everything you thought you knew goes out the door.

None of us know what the next 6 months holds, but if things go right there is no reason this team could not compete for a top 4 spot.

If a regression occurs or all the players simultaneously plateau...then the Habs will be fighting for their playoff lives once again.

I believe in the plan. And I think that in the next 2 years this team will make a leap that nobody will see coming.

Edited September 25, 2007 by Wamsley01

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I believe in the plan. And I think that in the next 2 years this team will make a leap that nobody will see coming.

The voice of reason as ever, Wamsley. I agree with most of what you say here, and especially the last bit.

All the same, it's worth asking at what point you would lose faith. What if the current wave of talent proves insufficient to make us contenders? (And surely talent does matter to some extent - even Jersey has Brodeur, Elias, Parise, Gionta, and before this season Gomez, all arguably better players than what Montreal can ice in comparable positions). Would you stand by Gainey over another, say, five seasons of mediocrity, because his plan is solid even if the execution failed to come off? Would you give him a second chance, with a second generation of players? Just asking, I genuinely want to know.

Wamsley's post also undercores something else. A lot of our assessment of the team's 'progress' under Gainey works from tacit assumptions about the hand he inherited. We may tend to underestimate just how catastrophically gutted the organization had become in the Houle years. If you take a team with almost no talent at all; few credible players in the system; no effective practices, good institutional culture, or talent and expertise at any level, from drafting to administrative work to travel-planning and training and all the rest of it - that's gonna take many years to rebuild. It took five years to eradicate an organization that had already grown somewhat soft during the last years of Serge Savard's reign; but it might take longer to reconstruct, it always being easier to destroy than to build. Andre Savard started the process, but we may be talking the hockey equivalent of rebuilding Afghanistan here. Indeed, my own belief is that Gainey worked as much on getting good people, practice, and culture in place organizationally as on the ice.

This should justify patience. Nonetheless, I still wonder - at what point do we cash in the chips?

Edited September 25, 2007 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Wamsley01]

The voice of reason as ever, Wamsley. I agree with most of what you say here, and especially the last bit.

All the same, it's worth asking at what point you would lose faith. What if the current wave of talent proves insufficient to make us contenders? (And surely talent does matter to some extent - even Jersey has Brodeur, Elias, Parise, Gionta, and before this season Gomez, all arguably better players than what Montreal can ice in comparable positions). Would you stand by Gainey over another, say, five seasons of mediocrity, because his plan is solid even if the execution failed to come off? Would you give him a second chance, with a second generation of players? Just asking, I genuinely want to know.

Wamsley's post also undercores something else. A lot of our assessment of the team's 'progress' under Gainey works from tacit assumptions about the hand he inherited. We may tend to underestimate just how catastrophically gutted the organization had become in the Houle years. If you take a team with almost no talent at all; few credible players in the system; no effective practices, good institutional culture, or talent and expertise at any level, from drafting to administrative work to travel-planning and training and all the rest of it - that's gonna take many years to rebuild. It took five years to eradicate an organization that had already grown somewhat soft during the last years of Serge Savard's reign; but it might take longer to reconstruct, it always being easier to destroy than to build. Andre Savard started the process, but we may be talking the hockey equivalent of rebuilding Afghanistan here. Indeed, my own belief is that Gainey worked as much on getting good people, practice, and culture in place organizationally as on the ice.

This should justify patience. Nonetheless, I still wonder - at what point do we cash in the chips?

Cucumber, you nailed it on the head. I agree that the decline had begun before Houle put his dirty fingers on this franchise. He took a declining team and gutted it. You win through building a foundation and build floor by floor until you reach the top floor. It takes years and most teams call it the 5 year plan. We are in year 4. That is why I am still patient. We are not watching kids like Eric Chouinard, Jason Ward and Matt Higgins and praying for the best. We are looking at Chris Higgins, Ryder, Plekanec, Latendresse, Komisarek and Price. Guys who are improving greatly every year and are showing that they are a future that I can look forward to.

As far as Gainey, I believe in his plan. But I also have been critical of him not trading Souray at the deadline. And last year not locking up some of the youth to longer term deals. The Vanek signing has caused teams to lock up their youth in growing numbers this summer for fear of having to overpay them on somebody else's terms. I will have faith in him until I feel he is deviating from the plan that has built him a Cup in the past.

As far as this team right now. I do not understand the pessimism. Gainey finally has his guys in place and is trying to create the stability winning organizations possess and the farm is producing 2-3 NHL players per draft. We have one of the best prospects in hockey in arguably the most important position in sports today banging on the door and 60% of our roster that gets better every single game.

On the outside everybody looks and says...same old Habs around 90 pts, battling for the playoffs. Essentially the same since 2002.

But look at the core of the 90 pt team in 2002 in comparison to today. What team would you rather have?

This team will jump and I will have to watch Kyrpeos, Miller, McKenzie, Maguire talk about how they came from nowhere and continue to wait for them to fall on their face to make themselves feel better. I think the leap is going to happen in the next 2 years.

Edited September 25, 2007 by Wamsley01

[JoeLassister]

Cucumber, you nailed it on the head. I agree that the decline had begun before Houle put his dirty fingers on this franchise. He took a declining team and gutted it. You win through building a foundation and build floor by floor until you reach the top floor. It takes years and most teams call it the 5 year plan. We are in year 4. That is why I am still patient. We are not watching kids like Eric Chouinard, Jason Ward and Matt Higgins and praying for the best. We are looking at Chris Higgins, Ryder, Plekanec, Latendresse, Komisarek and Price. Guys who are improving greatly every year and are showing that they are a future that I can look forward to.

This team DOES NOT NEED a Lecavalier to win or compete for the East. They DO NOT NEED a Guy Lafleur to win a Stanley Cup.

It need a team that buys into what Gainey and co. are selling.

I believe in the plan. And I think that in the next 2 years this team will make a leap that nobody will see coming.

I agree with almost everything you said, just like you, i think Habs are on their way to finish the rebuilding plan.

Foundation built in Carey Price.

Basement built in Markov, Komi, Fisher, McDonagh, Hamrlik, etc.

First floor nearly built in Higgins, Kost brothers, Tender, Plex

Second floor in Koivu and Kovy (Higgins slowly heading there)

What about a roof ?? Lecavalier ??

[simonus]

I am somewhat doubtful that Ryder will be with the organization for too much longer. I also think his impending free agency limits our ability to trade him for something resembling par value.

I only see two ways for us to get anything for Ryder:

1) We are out of the playoff hunt at the deadline.

I really hope this doesn't happen, but if it does there is no real reason not to trade Ryder to a contender. Contenders, however, don't generally trade impact roster players for deadline acquisitions. Think 2nd round draft pick and a middle-low (Gorges-esque) prospect. This kind of trade wouldn't really help the team that much in the short term.

2) Ryder is totally supplanted by one of the up and comers by mid-season.

Also unlikely. Somebody not named Higgins or Plekanec would really have to produce in order for this to happen. Think Latendresse or Kostitsyn breaking out something crazy by December. Perhaps we could then flip Ryder (+ Dandenault?) to an 8-10 team for some middle 30's declining scorer or experienced 5-6 D man (hopefully not Niinimaa2).

of course there is the mystical 3rd possibility: BG can work out some awesome multiplayer deal that nets us a top 6 scorer... but I ain't holding my breath.

[Wamsley01]

I am somewhat doubtful that Ryder will be with the organization for too much longer. I also think his impending free agency limits our ability to trade him for something resembling par value.

I only see two ways for us to get anything for Ryder:

1) We are out of the playoff hunt at the deadline.

I really hope this doesn't happen, but if it does there is no real reason not to trade Ryder to a contender. Contenders, however, don't generally trade impact roster players for deadline acquisitions. Think 2nd round draft pick and a middle-low (Gorges-esque) prospect. This kind of trade wouldn't really help the team that much in the short term.

2) Ryder is totally supplanted by one of the up and comers by mid-season.

Also unlikely. Somebody not named Higgins or Plekanec would really have to produce in order for this to happen. Think Latendresse or Kostitsyn breaking out something crazy by December. Perhaps we could then flip Ryder (+ Dandenault?) to an 8-10 team for some middle 30's declining scorer or experienced 5-6 D man (hopefully not Niinimaa2).

of course there is the mystical 3rd possibility: BG can work out some awesome multiplayer deal that nets us a top 6 scorer... but I ain't holding my breath.

In any deal the Habs make they have a plethora of talent in the minors that can sweeten any pot. Maybe another organization values Ryder more than the Habs and works out a contract with him before it goes through, in which case the player coming back would be more valuable. When you have stockpiled this many assets anything is possible.

[MMPL]

I really think we have great youth here in Montreal and agree with you when you say two years from now we will be ready to be cup contenders, but unfortunaltely, so are some other teams like Pittsburgh and Edmonton might make a push in some time. Also all of those mediocure seasons hurt us! Because if we would have a crappy season we could have landed a Ovehkin or a Eric Staal instead of a David Ficher or A.Kosty.

I hate to say it but I'm praying for a bad season instead of a mediocure this time around so we can draft a TOP prospect instead of a 3rd line centre or something.

[Wamsley01]

I really think we have great youth here in Montreal and agree with you when you say two years from now we will be ready to be cup contenders, but unfortunaltely, so are some other teams like Pittsburgh and Edmonton might make a push in some time. Also all of those mediocure seasons hurt us! Because if we would have a crappy season we could have landed a Ovehkin or a Eric Staal instead of a David Ficher or A.Kosty.

I hate to say it but I'm praying for a bad season instead of a mediocure this time around so we can draft a TOP prospect instead of a 3rd line centre or something.

Edmonton?

I am looking forward to a sustained push built on a solid foundation. Not a couple of chances and start over. If you continually build your minor league system to compliment your NHL system you will be able to plug in replacements over time. The Devils consistently plug in new players. They correctly identified the irreplaceable parts (Niedermayer/Brodeur) and built around those 2. That is why I am so excited about Carey Price and the way Hamilton has been set up to teach these kids how to suceed in Montreal.

In the new NHL Pittsburgh will have a small window to win the Cup with that core. The Penguins model is the model that lead to dynasty's in the pre salary cap days. But you cannot keep that roster together for any length of time and they will have to make intelligent decisions to build around Crosby. Look at Tampa. They won their Cup and then had to decide to keep Richards or Khabibulin. They decided to cap out Vinny, Marty and Richards and have been dying for a goalie every since.

If Pittsburgh invests in the wrong players alongside Crosby they will not sustain anytype of Stanley Cup contender. You cannot pay Staal, Crosby, Malkin and Fleury a combined 25 million dollars in a 50 million cap world. One player does not make a team.

Gretzky on LA won nothing, Lemieux took 5 years to make the playoffs on his own and did not win cups until he was joined by Francis, Jagr, Murphy, Coffey, Recchi, Barrasso etc.

It is true that Montreal should have bottomed out, unfortunately the Habs tried to win in 2000/01 instead of trying to tank and land Kovalchuk. 7 years ago it made a ton of sense as the farm was bare and there was really mainly veterans at the NHL level as well. Theodore had a couple of spectacular seasons which really masked how poor those teams were. But bottoming out now is pointless.

[Habitforming]

It is true that Montreal should have bottomed out, unfortunately the Habs tried to win in 2000/01 instead of trying to tank and land Kovalchuk. 7 years ago it made a ton of sense as the farm was bare and there was really mainly veterans at the NHL level as well. Theodore had a couple of spectacular seasons which really masked how poor those teams were. But bottoming out now is pointless.

The habs turned down an offer to move up and take Kovalchuck at the draft. I think including Garon was the deal breaker...might have been Theodore. Don't remember now.

[Wamsley01]

The habs turned down an offer to move up and take Kovalchuck at the draft. I think including Garon was the deal breaker...might have been Theodore. Don't remember now.

It was Theo, the Habs were offering Garon and their pick. Atlanta wanted Theo.

But they were in last place in December and improved in the second half.

I believe they ended up with the 8th pick and took Komisarek.

Edited September 25, 2007 by Wamsley01

[BTH]

It was Garon, Markov, MTL 1st (Komisarek) + late 1st (Perezhogin) for ATL 1st (Kovalchuk).

Right now, it looks like it was a great decision not to do that trade.

[MMPL]

It was Garon, Markov, MTL 1st (Komisarek) + late 1st (Perezhogin) for ATL 1st (Kovalchuk).

Right now, it looks like it was a great decision not to do that trade.

Yep but are you sure, Montreal was considering making this trade back then?

Edited September 25, 2007 by MMPL

[Wamsley01]

Yep but are you sure, Montreal was considering making this trade back then?

Atlanta wanted Theodore. Montreal would not add Theo in the deal and Atlanta kept the pick.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

The sad thing is, if we'd made that trade, we be a worse team, but a more *respected* one. Because as Wamsley points out, fans - and, I regret to say, media 'experts' as well as UFAs and other hockey players - tend to be dazzled by Big Stars and lose sight of the big picture.

Sorry, I just get frustrated with the Habs being routinely dismissed as garbage because they lack big names.

Edited September 25, 2007 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Wamsley01]

The sad thing is, if we'd made that trade, we be a worse team, but a more *respected* one. Because as Wamsley points out, fans - and, I regret to say, media 'experts' as well as UFAs and other hockey players - tend to be dazzled by Big Stars and lose sight of the big picture.

Sorry, I just get frustrated with the Habs being routinely dismissed as garbage because they lack big names.

Agreed, it happens in every sport. I am not even going to mention a certain NY team that had tons of stars and no playoffs.

Last year everybody said Boston was going to be good because they added Chara and Savard.

This year everybody has buried Buffalo because they lost Drury and Briere. Buffalo played half the previous season without Briere and was fine and played a large part of last season without Afiniganov and Connoly and just brought up kids like Stafford and Paille to fill the void.

Hockey is a team game. Always will be.

[MMPL]

So you two are trying to say that big name players destroy the big picture of your team?

I tend to disagree, I think A kovalchuk would help us, A LOT.

[BTH]

So you two are trying to say that big name players destroy the big picture of your team?

I tend to disagree, I think A kovalchuk would help us, A LOT.

No, we're saying that when people analyze rosters they only look at the stars of the team and don't analyze the rest. For this reason, most people overlook Montreal's potential and have high expectations for teams like Philly.

Kovalchuk would be great for us but would yuo be willing to give up Huet and our top D pairing to get him? That trade would have set us back even more. Look at Florida - they have Jokinen but have never had enough around him to be a good team. That's what we would be like had we done that trade.

[MMPL]

Oh okay,

Now that you put it that way i totally agree, that's why i signed up for habsworld to learn something.

[les_glorieux]

God damnit I hope we do well this year...