Neech Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 The biggest thing that seperates the two franchises is the Bell Centre. The ACC is full of suits and Old white people wearing Zubaz. The Bell Centre is affordable, full of energy and a lot of young adults who sing and blow the roof off the building with every goal. Montreal is Head and shoulders above Toronto because of that. I agree that the Bell centre is better, it's the best in the league. But the high cost of tickets isn't really what determines the hockey Mecca, what if some owner came to Montreal and jacked up the ticket prices and it was less affordable? Less of the young boisterous people would go, but Montreal would still care the same about hockey. That's what being the hockey Mecca is about, it's where people eat drink sleep and dream hockey, if you like clichés. People are die-hard about hockey in Montreal, as well as in Toronto, and you can't really say that one is more die-hard than the other. Now I agree that Montreal is the hockey Mecca, but any arguements that Toronto isn't don't really hold up because they're just as rabid as we are. It's like two Tool fans saying 'NO, I like Tool more!' 'NO, I like Tool more because I've been to more shows!' 'Well I have all their records on cd, cassette and vynil!' etc. It turns out to be a pissing contest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokyohabs Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 The ACC is full of suits and Old white people wearing Zubaz. You, sir, are a poet. Woke my kid up laughing out loud at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 (edited) I agree that the Bell centre is better, it's the best in the league. But the high cost of tickets isn't really what determines the hockey Mecca, what if some owner came to Montreal and jacked up the ticket prices and it was less affordable? Less of the young boisterous people would go, but Montreal would still care the same about hockey. That's what being the hockey Mecca is about, it's where people eat drink sleep and dream hockey, if you like clichés. People are die-hard about hockey in Montreal, as well as in Toronto, and you can't really say that one is more die-hard than the other. Now I agree that Montreal is the hockey Mecca, but any arguements that Toronto isn't don't really hold up because they're just as rabid as we are. It's like two Tool fans saying 'NO, I like Tool more!' 'NO, I like Tool more because I've been to more shows!' 'Well I have all their records on cd, cassette and vynil!' etc. It turns out to be a pissing contest. I disagree. The ACC is a mausoleum. I don't define the Mecca by rabid fanbase alone. Arena atmosphere is a huge factor for me, as is tradition, a winning history etc. Jersey and condo sales and loud mouths do not qualify you as the Mecca. Montreal is the most succesful franchise in NHL history and trails only the Yankees in Championships. There building is sold out nightly, the atmosphere in that sold out stadium is unbelievable every single night. Toronto has loyal fans and a sold out building with a tradition for losing regularly in the last 40 years. Wrigley field is a great place to get drunk and watch a game. Loyal fans, sold out Wrigley. But nobody defines Chicago as the Mecca of Baseball. Montreal is the Mecca. If Toronto steps up and re-establishes a winning tradition then I will place them in the same category. IMO Edited January 11, 2008 by Wamsley01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 But the high cost of tickets isn't really what determines the hockey Mecca, what if some owner came to Montreal and jacked up the ticket prices and it was less affordable? I read an article about a year ago saying that for a family of 4 to go to a Habs game (4 tickets), + Parking + Food + some Habs paraphanalia...the Bell Centre was the most expensive place to go. IN terms of just ticket prices, the Bell Centre is the Second most expensive place to go... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 (edited) I read an article about a year ago saying that for a family of 4 to go to a Habs game (4 tickets), + Parking + Food + some Habs paraphanalia...the Bell Centre was the most expensive place to go. IN terms of just ticket prices, the Bell Centre is the Second most expensive place to go... I thought it was second to the Nucks but those numbers are very skewed. A family can get 4 tickets in the family zone for less than 100$ and you do not need to buy concessions at a hockey game, it is possible to go 3 hours without food or water but are concessions anywhere not way over priced even the move theatre. Edited January 11, 2008 by JMMR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 I thought it was second to the Nucks but those numbers are very skewed. A family can get 4 tickets in the family zone for less than 100$ and you do not need to buy concessions at a hockey game, it is possible to go 3 hours without food or water but are concessions anywhere not way over priced even the move theatre. They are skewed. Toronto does not have a Molson Ex Zone. The cheapest seat is $25/$35 and they are gone instantly and scalpers get $100 each for them on the street. Also, a hot dog and a regular coke will cost you $9 at the ACC. A large beer is $15. I also question the validity of the article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 There is something to be said about where the players want to play being the mecca, in which case I gotta think Toronto or Detroit. But I also think there is something to be said about players not wanting to play somewhere. I gotta wonder how many players think, in the back of their minds, "Man, I am totally incapable of playing in Montreal." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 I thought it was second to the Nucks but those numbers are very skewed. I think you might be right on that one. In anycase, we all know that the Bell centre isn't a cheap place to go to a hockey game, and the fact that it sells out everygame in a building that has an extra 2000 seats more than any other place is all the more impressive! A family can get 4 tickets in the family zone for less than 100$ True, but have you ever tried to buy 4 tickets in the Molson Ex Zone? It's almost impossible! They are always the first tickets to be sold out! you do not need to buy concessions at a hockey game, it is possible to go 3 hours without food or water but are concessions I'm well aware of that, but the study wanted tyo take into consideration the price of concession stands. I mean, a beer, a small bag of chips and a Slice of pepperoni Pizza will cost you more than 20$ at the Phone Booth...it's just ridiculous! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 There is something to be said about where the players want to play being the mecca, in which case I gotta think Toronto or Detroit. That's mostly cause Detroit Has been really good over the past decade. Do you think many superstars wanted to play in Detrit back in the 80,s when they sucked? Where do you think most players wanted to play in the 70's?? Montreal obviously! Superstars had no problems playing in Pittsburgh in the early 90's...why was it soo hard for them to get superstars in teh early 2000's? Cause they sucked! Give it time, when the Habs will become contenders, they won'T have any problems attracting big name players! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 There is something to be said about where the players want to play being the mecca, in which case I gotta think Toronto or Detroit. But I also think there is something to be said about players not wanting to play somewhere. I gotta wonder how many players think, in the back of their minds, "Man, I am totally incapable of playing in Montreal." Players don't mind playing in Florida. It is hot and there is no state tax. Most Players want to get paid then win. If they can do both, great. That is why the Leafs used to collect old players in the early decade. Roberts, Corson, Nieuwendyk all made their money and then were attracted to their hometown team. If Montreal is a powerhouse and has cap room the players WILL go there. Ovechkin essentially sold his rights to the Caps for his career without knowing what the atmosphere will be in his prime. He did it for $$$$$. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 Ovechkin essentially sold his rights to the Caps for his career without knowing what the atmosphere will be in his prime. He did it for $$$$$. You are most probably right...but would you say no to 124 million$??? I know I wouldn'T! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShortHanded Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 You are most probably right...but would you say no to 124 million$??? I know I wouldn'T! no, but don't you think he would have gotten that from other teams too?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 no, but don't you think he would have gotten that from other teams too?? Who's to say he won'T be traded in 5 years? Maybe Washington will realize that they can't win with just one hig paid player, and will try to trade him...or maybe Ovechkin will ask for a trade after 3 years?? WHo knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 True, but have you ever tried to buy 4 tickets in the Molson Ex Zone? It's almost impossible! They are always the first tickets to be sold out! I'm well aware of that, but the study wanted tyo take into consideration the price of concession stands. Yeah I actually got 5 to a leafs game. And I said Family zone not Molson Ex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smon Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 Sounds like he saw a lot of brown people from his car window. Yeah, the original comment sure came out of left-field, that's for sure.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 (edited) Who's to say he won'T be traded in 5 years? Maybe Washington will realize that they can't win with just one hig paid player, and will try to trade him...or maybe Ovechkin will ask for a trade after 3 years?? WHo knows? He may. But he has taken the control out of his own hands. If he signed a 5 year 48M contract he would still be set for life and he would have the option to cash out in Washington or wherever the hell he wanted in 5 years. A player like that will most likely always demand top dollar. What if the cap and salaries rise and Crosby on his next round of free agency gets 13 million per season for another 5 years? He will have almost matched that number while keeping his freedom. A player like Ovechkin would have to get an injury like Pavel Bure to not have somebody gamble on him. Forsberg still got top dollar even though he has not played a full season since 96 and has played over 75 games only 5 times in his career. Look at Dipietro. He is now locked in at 4.5 per season for the remainder of his career. Top goalies already get close to 7M per. What will they get in 5 years time? I don't believe the option exists to renegotiate in todays NHL cap world. So that is his number, like it or not in 5 years. Edited January 11, 2008 by Wamsley01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 I disagree. The ACC is a mausoleum. I don't define the Mecca by rabid fanbase alone. Arena atmosphere is a huge factor for me, as is tradition, a winning history etc. Jersey and condo sales and loud mouths do not qualify you as the Mecca. We're talking about if Montreal is the Mecca, not the Bell centre. And you're exaggerating about the ACC being a mausoleum, I've watched many games from there where the crowd is going wild. It's gotta be in the top 5 in the league. Montreal is the most succesful franchise in NHL history and trails only the Yankees in Championships. There building is sold out nightly, the atmosphere in that sold out stadium is unbelievable every single night. Toronto has loyal fans and a sold out building with a tradition for losing regularly in the last 40 years. Wrigley field is a great place to get drunk and watch a game. Loyal fans, sold out Wrigley. But nobody defines Chicago as the Mecca of Baseball. Montreal is the Mecca. If Toronto steps up and re-establishes a winning tradition then I will place them in the same category. IMO Well, as I said, Toronto's failures actually boost its status as a Mecca in my eyes. Who knows if hockey would be as huge in Montreal if we had been Stanley Cup-dry for 40 years. And they've sold out every game for something like 20 years I think. Mecca does not equal where the most pro championships are, it has more to do with the cultural importance of the sport in that area. Is Long Island more of a Mecca than Vancouver because they've had more championships? Using your baseball example, people might say Yankee Stadium is a Mecca of baseball, but the actual city of New York is no more so than Chicago or Boston. Boston has a worthy place as being a Mecca because they didn't win anything for 80 years and the fans still lived and died by the Red Sox. The success of the pro teams has very little to do with a place being a Mecca. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 (edited) We're talking about if Montreal is the Mecca, not the Bell centre. And you're exaggerating about the ACC being a mausoleum, I've watched many games from there where the crowd is going wild. It's gotta be in the top 5 in the league. Well, as I said, Toronto's failures actually boost its status as a Mecca in my eyes. Who knows if hockey would be as huge in Montreal if we had been Stanley Cup-dry for 40 years. And they've sold out every game for something like 20 years I think. Mecca does not equal where the most pro championships are, it has more to do with the cultural importance of the sport in that area. Is Long Island more of a Mecca than Vancouver because they've had more championships? Using your baseball example, people might say Yankee Stadium is a Mecca of baseball, but the actual city of New York is no more so than Chicago or Boston. Boston has a worthy place as being a Mecca because they didn't win anything for 80 years and the fans still lived and died by the Red Sox. The success of the pro teams has very little to do with a place being a Mecca. Hey you are entitled to your opinion. I don't hold it. If you think that it comes down to cultural importance than Montreal wins no?. The culture in Montreal reflects their hockey team a hell of alot more than Toronto's evolving culture does. So much that people question/argue how long until basketball better represents the demographic. Toronto does not posses a Rocket Richard who represented the culture arguably better than any athlete ever. Championships lead to the lore. Walking through the Bell Centre you feel the history. If you removed the Habs from Montreal you would rip the heart from the city. The way that Toronto is evolving, this city would get over it. It would hurt, but not to the same extent. Leaf fans would move on to the Raptors/Jays/NFL team. It is impressive that the Leafs have sold out for 20+ years. But Toronto also possesses a shit load of corporate money that makes it almost impossible not to sell out. (BTW, about 2 years ago coming out of the lockout there were a handful of games that were not sell outs) As far as the ACC, it is loud when the Leafs score or the scoreboard prompts you to make noise. Thassit. I brought a bunch of Leaf fans on a road trip to a Habs game and the look of shock on their face to the crowd reaction when the Habs scored was priceless. One of them looked at me and told me he could not believe how loud it was. The Leaf fans on the road are louder during a game then the Leaf fans in the ACC. In T.O they sit on their hands waiting for something to happen. But like I said. IMO Edited January 12, 2008 by Wamsley01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 Hey you are entitled to your opinion. I don't hold it. If you think that it comes down to cultural importance than Montreal wins no?. I'm saying it's culturally important to both to such an extent that you can't say one is more of a Mecca than the other. The culture in Montreal reflects their hockey team a hell of alot more than Toronto's evolving culture does. So much that people question/argue how long until basketball better represents the demographic. Toronto does not posses a Rocket Richard who represented the culture arguably better than any athlete ever. Hey, Montreal's culture is evolving pretty fast too. And saying that No. 9 represented the culture, you're coming from an ethnic standpoint, right? Then what about all the Anglos and immigrants in Montreal? Besides, that was half a century ago, and we're talking about today. And you could come up with a few prominent Leafs that fans could claim 'represented their culture,' Gilmour and Sittler to name a few. Championships lead to the lore. Walking through the Bell Centre you feel the history. The history of all the championships won in the Bell Centre? When I go to see a movie at the AMC I feel the history. I agree that we have the most storied past in hockey, and lore has something to do with being a Mecca. But look at the Red Sox, they won nothing but still have loads of lore. Lore is basically the shared experience of the fanbase, and that occurs with or without winning. If you removed the Habs from Montreal you would rip the heart from the city. The way that Toronto is evolving, this city would get over it. It would hurt, but not to the same extent. Leaf fans would move on to the Raptors/Jays/NFL team. Well you're plain wrong there, the Leafs are by far the number one team in southern Ontario, and if they left it would be devastating to fans. The fact that Toronto's sports fans are more diversified in taste and have more choices to pick from doesn't detract from how much they care about hockey. It is impressive that the Leafs have sold out for 20+ years. But Toronto also possesses a shit load of corporate money that makes it almost impossible not to sell out. (BTW, about 2 years ago coming out of the lockout there were a handful of games that were not sell outs) As far as the ACC, it is loud when the Leafs score or the scoreboard prompts you to make noise. Thassit. I brought a bunch of Leaf fans on a road trip to a Habs game and the look of shock on their face to the crowd reaction when the Habs scored was priceless. One of them looked at me and told me he could not believe how loud it was. The Leaf fans on the road are louder during a game then the Leaf fans in the ACC. In T.O they sit on their hands waiting for something to happen. But like I said. IMO Well it says something that Leafs fans are the most common in opposing arenas, but that's mainly speaking to the size of their fanbase. But when it comes down to it, I would say that Montreal is the Mecca of hockey if I had to make a call on it. I just don't think that someone saying Toronto would be provably wrong. I also sense that lots of Habs fans, possibly you, are coming from an anti-Toronto place when they're involved in these discussions, and it effects the impartiality of the judgment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokyohabs Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 so finally, what you're both saying, is, er... Montreal is the Mecca of hockey. Right, next, please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 (edited) And they've sold out every game for something like 20 years I think. Sorry my friend, that argument is a bit misleading! True that the leafs may have sold out for the past 20 years, but 11 of those years were in the tiny maple leaf garden(Max capacity of 16,000 people) Not a very hard thing to do. The Habs used to sell out the Forum as well, which again had a larger max capacity (17,959). Also, like Wamsley said, Toronto has a larger Corporate presence, which makes not selling out, almost impossible. Well it says something that Leafs fans are the most common in opposing arenas, but that's mainly speaking to the size of their fanbase. Did you watch the Game the habs played against the Panthers during the holidays? I had one of my colleagues at work who was in Florida for a golf vacation and he was at the Game. HE said there were more people wearing the Red white and Blue compared to Panther jerseys. He said Habs fans outnumbered the Panther fans 2 to 1...and anyone watching on TV could clearly hear it on TV. There were also a few thousand habsfans in Tampa. On Thursday's game, there must have been 2000 Habsfans who were in Boston(this is becoming more and more popular for Montrealers who can'T find tickets for the Bell centre.) They buy group packages for Habs games in Boston and drive down with a bunch of friends/family for a week-end in Been town! And let's not even mention the amount of Habsfans there are when ever the habs play in Ottawa...it's almost like a second home for the Habs! All this to say that there's no doubt in my mind where the Mecca is, but like I said before, there is alos no doubt in my mind that Toronto is a close second! Edited January 12, 2008 by Habsfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 There were also a few thousand habsfans in Tampa. On Thursday's game, there must have been 2000 Habsfans who were in Boston(this is becoming more and more popular for Montrealers who can'T find tickets for the Bell centre.) They buy group packages for Habs games in Boston and drive down with a bunch of friends/family for a week-end in Been town! And let's not even mention the amount of Habsfans there are when ever the habs play in Ottawa...it's almost like a second home for the Habs! Habs fans are probably number 2 in terms of presence in opposing arenas. Lots of Quebecers go to Florida for Christmas, that's why we always play there over the holidays. And we probably have a bigger presence in Boston than Leafs fans would, while Ottawa would be pretty close with an advantage to Leafs fans. But in the other arenas around the league there is bigger likelihood of a significant showing by Leafs fans. Too bad they rarely ever go to Detroit any more, that used to be big rivalry (and it would result in a more TO losses). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 I'm saying it's culturally important to both to such an extent that you can't say one is more of a Mecca than the other. Hey, Montreal's culture is evolving pretty fast too. And saying that No. 9 represented the culture, you're coming from an ethnic standpoint, right? Then what about all the Anglos and immigrants in Montreal? Besides, that was half a century ago, and we're talking about today. And you could come up with a few prominent Leafs that fans could claim 'represented their culture,' Gilmour and Sittler to name a few. The history of all the championships won in the Bell Centre? When I go to see a movie at the AMC I feel the history. I agree that we have the most storied past in hockey, and lore has something to do with being a Mecca. But look at the Red Sox, they won nothing but still have loads of lore. Lore is basically the shared experience of the fanbase, and that occurs with or without winning. Well you're plain wrong there, the Leafs are by far the number one team in southern Ontario, and if they left it would be devastating to fans. The fact that Toronto's sports fans are more diversified in taste and have more choices to pick from doesn't detract from how much they care about hockey. Well it says something that Leafs fans are the most common in opposing arenas, but that's mainly speaking to the size of their fanbase. But when it comes down to it, I would say that Montreal is the Mecca of hockey if I had to make a call on it. I just don't think that someone saying Toronto would be provably wrong. I also sense that lots of Habs fans, possibly you, are coming from an anti-Toronto place when they're involved in these discussions, and it effects the impartiality of the judgment. In regards to Richard I am talking about the importance of his role in Quebec culture. The way he crossed over into the politics and represented and enhanced the pride of his people. Guy Lafleur was a Quebecois as was Roy but they did not fan the flame of the people because they did not come along at the right time. Richard was like Ali in the 60s. He arrived at the right social and political climate. He represented the people like no other in the sport. Doug Gilmour and Darryl Sittler did not represent anything more than being good players. Nothng more, nothing less. You can believe what you like. There is no right and wrong answer. It is unprovable. But the factors I choose to annoint the Mecca are different than yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 while Ottawa would be pretty close with an advantage to Leafs fans. I respectfully disagree. 50% of Gatineau are Habs fans...that's 125,000 people in a city of just over 1 million(the entire Ottawa region) and that doiesn'T even count the habs fans in Ottawa proper! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smon Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 The problem with stats is surely you can't prove them - did anyone ever actually survey every single person in Gatineau and ask them if they are Habs fans? Somehow, I doubt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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