Past moves that have substantially helped us!

[Trizzak]

As far as the praise being heaped on the Penguin, what exactly has he EVER won???

Over 600 games.

Which coach do you want on the Habs?

[hab29RETIRED]

Over 600 games.

Which coach do you want on the Habs?

I hate when people mention his 600 REGULAR season wins, without mentioning the number of games he lost. Bowman won more then DOUBLE the number of games the penguin won and lost only around 100 more games.

JM has been coaching since when - mid 80's??? if he didn't have 600 wins there would REALLY be something wrong with him. What is amazing is that guy has never won anything that MATTERS as a head coach.

I said last two year's ago, when Boucher was at risk of being lost. Fire JM hire Boucher. Quinnville would have been a great choice had Gainey acted sooner in dumping Carbo. Now, I'd say show some balls and hire someone doesn't speak french, but understands today's game and doesn't have his team playing pre-lockout hockey, is a good communicator and plays a style suited to the players he has.

[Trizzak]

I hate when people mention his 600 REGULAR season wins, without mentioning the number of games he lost. Bowman won more then DOUBLE the number of games the penguin won and lost only around 100 more games.

JM has been coaching since when - mid 80's??? if he didn't have 600 wins there would REALLY be something wrong with him. What is amazing is that guy has never won anything that MATTERS as a head coach.

I said last two year's ago, when Boucher was at risk of being lost. Fire JM hire Boucher. Quinnville would have been a great choice had Gainey acted sooner in dumping Carbo. Now, I'd say show some balls and hire someone doesn't speak french, but understands today's game and doesn't have his team playing pre-lockout hockey, is a good communicator and plays a style suited to the players he has.

Yes... the greatest coach of all time has more wins than him. Knock me down with a feather.

What has Boucher won? Quenneville hadn't "won" anything either before he was picked up by Chicago. Why is he a better choice?

You can try to put down Martin for a lot of things, but to say he hasn't "won" anything is pretty laughable. Based on your comments, you seem to think the Habs win in spite of having him as a coach.

He has a system of proven success, but because he hasn't won a Stanley Cup he hasn't actually had success? If the Bruins fire Julien, should we hire him because he's won a Cup?

[hab29RETIRED]

Yes... the greatest coach of all time has more wins than him. Knock me down with a feather.

What has Boucher won? Quenneville hadn't "won" anything either before he was picked up by Chicago. Why is he a better choice?

You can try to put down Martin for a lot of things, but to say he hasn't "won" anything is pretty laughable. Based on your comments, you seem to think the Habs win in spite of having him as a coach.

He has a system of proven success, but because he hasn't won a Stanley Cup he hasn't actually had success? If the Bruins fire Julien, should we hire him because he's won a Cup?

Boucher and Quinneville's coaching style is suited to post-lockout NHL - JM isn't. Boucher has been in the league for what one year??? Took his team to the final 4 in his first year. The penguin didn't get that far until around 14 years AFTER his first coaching stint.

The only difference between the habs playoff run in 2008 with Carbo and the 2010 run with the penguin was that Halak stood on his head, while Price was shaky. YOu exchange the goaltending performances of Price and Halak in those two years, the habs could have gone further in 2008 and would have been out in the first round in 2010.

With the Martin system, if your goalie doesn't stand on his head, you lose. Plain and simple.

The point i'm making comparing Bowman and JM's wins, is that you need some context for those 600 wins. Bryan Murray also has over 600 wins (i believe he has more wins then the penguins and less losses). Would you want him??? Just because a guy has been around forever, doesn't make him a good coach.

I'll take a Blysma, Boucher or Babcock type of coach over washed out never won anythings like the Penguin any day.

What really sucks is we are proabably going to lose another Kostitysn for nothing at the end of the year, thanks to the crappy way the Penguin has handled him. With any other team in the league, Ak46 is a 30-40 goal scorer. Under the penguin he is picked over Darche for PP time.

[Commandant]

I don't mean to attack you here, but I have to say, I really have a hard time taking your posts about coaching seriously when you continually use an insulting name for the coach. It just goes to show the continual lack of respect... the same lack of respect that means we give Halak all the credit for JM's wins, and give JM all the shit for his losses.

[Trizzak]

I'll take a Blysma, Boucher or Babcock type of coach over washed out never won anythings like the Penguin any day.

What really sucks is we are proabably going to lose another Kostitysn for nothing at the end of the year, thanks to the crappy way the Penguin has handled him. With any other team in the league, Ak46 is a 30-40 goal scorer. Under the penguin he is picked over Darche for PP time.

There's that "never won anything" comment again. Once again, say what ever you like about the kind of coach he is, but don't wave away his winning record like it's inconsequential. It matters.

AK46 hasn't been a 30-40 goal scorer under any of the 3 coaches he's played for. Is it possible he's just a career 25-25 guy?

[hab29RETIRED]

There's that "never won anything" comment again. Once again, say what ever you like about the kind of coach he is, but don't wave away his winning record like it's inconsequential. It matters.

AK46 hasn't been a 30-40 goal scorer under any of the 3 coaches he's played for. Is it possible he's just a career 25-25 guy?

To me his winning record does NOT matter. Like I said, Murray has won 600 games, and Keenan has also won 600 games. Would you pick them today (assuming they could speak french - since that seems to the most important criteria for the habs)???

Keenan at least WAS a good coach at one time. Murray was another won nothing, who took a loaded Senators team further then the penguin, but still coudn't win. The Penguin was washed up as a coach and was hired because he speaks French.

I'll gaurantee you that once Ak46 leaves the habs at the end of this year, he WILL score over 30 goals and probably will top 35. He had a break out year and then like the rest of the team regressed in 2009. Then the wonder that is the Penguin came in and treated him like shit. When Gomez, Cammy and Gionta took stupid lazy penalties, they never paid the price. When AK took a penalty, he gets his ass nailed to the bench. AK46 starts out hot last year, instead of being positive, Martin not only offers a flippant remark that he is just playing for a contract, he also banished him to the deep black hole that is Gomez.

[Trizzak]

To me his winning record does NOT matter. Like I said, Murray has won 600 games, and Keenan has also won 600 games. Would you pick them today (assuming they could speak french - since that seems to the most important criteria for the habs)???

Keenan at least WAS a good coach at one time. Murray was another won nothing, who took a loaded Senators team further then the penguin, but still coudn't win. The Penguin was washed up as a coach and was hired because he speaks French.

I'll gaurantee you that once Ak46 leaves the habs at the end of this year, he WILL score over 30 goals and probably will top 35. He had a break out year and then like the rest of the team regressed in 2009. Then the wonder that is the Penguin came in and treated him like shit. When Gomez, Cammy and Gionta took stupid lazy penalties, they never paid the price. When AK took a penalty, he gets his ass nailed to the bench. AK46 starts out hot last year, instead of being positive, Martin not only offers a flippant remark that he is just playing for a contract, he also banished him to the deep black hole that is Gomez.

Jacques Martin is still winning. The team has done well with him at the helm. This isn't a Pat Quinn or Mike Keenan situation... Jacques Martin is still relevant in the NHL. He's boring, but he's relevant.

Your qualifications for being a coach in Montreal seem to be either: won a stanley cup (preferably more than one)/play an up tempo system, OR you have to be young enough to not have failed at all/play an up tempo system. Please forgive the rest of us that enjoy watching a winning team that doesn't necessarily have the coach you want.

And AK was sent to Gomez's line to try to get Gomez going. That's actually a vote of confidence in Kostitsyn... Gomez just happened to be salvageable last season.

[hab29RETIRED]

I don't mean to attack you here, but I have to say, I really have a hard time taking your posts about coaching seriously when you continually use an insulting name for the coach. It just goes to show the continual lack of respect... the same lack of respect that means we give Halak all the credit for JM's wins, and give JM all the shit for his losses.

Well, frankly I don't have ANY respect for MARTIN.

When your coaching strategy pretty much requires your goalie standing on his head, its a hard not to blame the coach for the losses and credit the goalies for the win.

[hab29RETIRED]

Jacques Martin is still winning. The team has done well with him at the helm. This isn't a Pat Quinn or Mike Keenan situation... Jacques Martin is still relevant in the NHL. He's boring, but he's relevant.

Your qualifications for being a coach in Montreal seem to be either: won a stanley cup (preferably more than one)/play an up tempo system, OR you have to be young enough to not have failed at all/play an up tempo system. Please forgive the rest of us that enjoy watching a winning team that doesn't necessarily have the coach you want.

And AK was sent to Gomez's line to try to get Gomez going. That's actually a vote of confidence in Kostitsyn... Gomez just happened to be salvageable last season.

My criteria for a coach is one that can take the habs to the next level. Not one that has his team SCRAPE into the playoffs each year. If you call making the playoffs during the last week, or the last day of the season, as in 2009/2010, winning hockey, our definitions of winning hockey are quite different.

As for AK46, he has been a whipping boy for Martin since he started coaching here (AK46 has also been a whipping boy for the media as well). Why is it that if he makes a lazy play or takes a penalty his ass is nailed to the bench. If Cammy, Gionta, or Gomez, who is the most useless player making over $2M (let alone $8M), makes the same play, there are never any repurcussions. Why is it when Gill, Hamrlik, or Spacek make stupid plays, for the most part they don't miss a shift. If a young dman makes a similar play they are in the pressbox. Outside of the PK, Gill has been useless, yet Emelin has been rotting in the pressbox. Gill is 6'7" and probably couldn't hit a marsmellow hard enough to squish it, but the first supposedly physical dman we have, one we have been chasing for 5-6 years, is sitting in the pressbox.

[Commandant]

So Martin's strategy only works with great goalies, and he never wins anything without one?

Doesn't really explain the Lalime years.

[hab29RETIRED]

So Martin's strategy only works with great goalies, and he never wins anything without one?

Doesn't really explain the Lalime years.

First of all that is an entirely differnt era. Even then, you are talking as if his entire tenure in Ottawa was successful. During his tenure his record was:

Team Year Regular Season Post Season G W L T OTL Pts Finish W L W% Result

OTT 1995–96 38 10 24 4 – (41) 6th in Northeast 0 0 – Missed Playoffs OTT 1996–97 82 31 36 15 – 77 3rd in Northeast 3 4 .429 Lost in First round OTT 1997–98 82 34 33 15 - 83 5th in Northeast 5 6 .455 Lost in Second round OTT 1998–99 82 44 23 15 - 103 1st in Northeast 0 4 .000 Lost in First round OTT 1999–2000 82 41 28 11 2 95 2nd in Northeast 2 4 .333 Lost in First round OTT 2000–01 82 48 21 9 4 109 1st in Northeast 0 4 .000 Lost in First round OTT 2001–02 80 38 26 9 7 94 3rd in Northeast 7 5 .583 Lost in Second round OTT 2002–03 82 52 21 8 1 113 1st in Northeast 11 7 .611 Lost in Conf. Finals OTT 2003–04 82 43 23 10 6 102 3rd in Northeast 3 4 .429 Lost in First round

Given the stacked lineup he had (Alfresson, Spezza, Hossa, Havlet, Phillips, Chara, Redden) his regular season record isn't much of a surprise. His playoff record is another matter. Five first round losses isn't very imprressive (although i do grant a few of those were with the earlier weaker teams).

Bottom line was he was there a long time and was never able to take the next step and was usually out-coached in the playoffs.

Second of all issue with Lalime was NOT the regular season, but the pressure in the playoffs. Lalime's regular season record was a respectful:

Season Team Lge GP A PIM Min GA EN SO GAA W L T Svs Pct GP A PIM

2000-01 Ottawa Senators NHL 60 1 2 3607 141 3 7 2.35 36 19 5 1499 0.914 4 0 0 2001-02 Ottawa Senators NHL 61 1 19 3583 148 1 7 2.48 27 24 8 1373 0.903 12 0 0 2002-03 Ottawa Senators NHL 67 1 6 3943 142 1 8 2.16 39 20 7 1449 0.911 - - - 2003-04 Ottawa Senators NHL 57 2 17 3324 127 3 5 2.29 25 23 7 1207 0.905

sorry how the above post looks. When i did the cut and paste, it still showed as a table, but looks pretty messed up after pressing post.

[Habsy]

I tend to agree with hab29. But I also think, and this is really over simplifying it, that Carey Price is our best player. First round pick, has won at every level, developed by us, climbed the ladder the sport has in place. I once heard an interview with Ken Holland, the Red Wing GM. After Hasek, they decided to not spend mega dollars on the goaltending position. It's one way to build a team. Going forward, ours is built differently. We should be able to rely heavily on Carey, who's one of the leagues best. I believe that if the NHL participates in future Olympic games, Carey's going to be Canada's goalie. Though I'd certainly prefer the team play a more aggressive system.

[hab29RETIRED]

I tend to agree with hab29. But I also think, and this is really over simplifying it, that Carey Price is our best player. First round pick, has won at every level, developed by us, climbed the ladder the sport has in place. I once heard an interview with Ken Holland, the Red Wing GM. After Hasek, they decided to not spend mega dollars on the goaltending position. It's one way to build a team. Going forward, ours is built differently. We should be able to rely heavily on Carey, who's one of the leagues best. I believe that if the NHL participates in future Olympic games, Carey's going to be Canada's goalie. Though I'd certainly prefer the team play a more aggressive system.

I grew up being spoiled by Dryden and then Roy, so I'm a big believer in having strong goaltending. However, those teams also were stacked with guys that could scare. What scares the hell out of me now about Price, is not how good he will be going forward, its how much it will cost to keep him. With the contract that Rine just signed, I don't see how we don't have to pay around $7.5M/yr to Price.

It kills me how the owners are the one's that constantly cry they are going broke and then sign guys to stupid deals like the Rinne deal. He is a great goalie, but does he deserve to be the top paid goalie (along with Kipper and Luongo I believe), despite not having won anything yet??? It's one thing to have a conn smythe/cup winning goalie with a track record signing a big deal, its another for a guy who has what, won one playoff series, getting that kind of deal!!!

On a side note, why do we constantly have work stoppages when the idiots like Sather who sign players to dumb deals keep their jobs?????? The owners demand a system that they get, then screw themselves over again, then impose a new system that they will somehow find a way to screw up again.

[BTH]

I agree with all the examples in the OP. Gauthier has also made some good short term moves like adding Wisniewski and Moore.

hab29retired - you always have to overpay during UFA. It's an auction and you don't necessarily know what the other teams are bidding. You try to throw them the lowest offer they can't refuse possible. If the Flames wanted to give 5M for 4 years, it makes sense that adding 1M and 1 year might be able to get it done. He's unlikely to accept the same offer in Montreal. Long term contracts are annoying but we should be grateful Gainey and Gauthier have avoided signing old players into the final years of their career (except Spacek which was only 3 years to a 35 year old, not a Chris Pronger type contract). At any rate, I think it's better to have the player at an overpayment than to not have him at all. It usually isn't that hard to deal a decent but overpaid player when they only have one year left on their contract.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

BTH is 100% right

I agree with all the examples in the OP. Gauthier has also made some good short term moves like adding Wisniewski and Moore.

hab29retired - you always have to overpay during UFA. It's an auction and you don't necessarily know what the other teams are bidding. You try to throw them the lowest offer they can't refuse possible. If the Flames wanted to give 5M for 4 years, it makes sense that adding 1M and 1 year might be able to get it done. He's unlikely to accept the same offer in Montreal. Long term contracts are annoying but we should be grateful Gainey and Gauthier have avoided signing old players into the final years of their career (except Spacek which was only 3 years to a 35 year old, not a Chris Pronger type contract). At any rate, I think it's better to have the player at an overpayment than to not have him at all. It usually isn't that hard to deal a decent but overpaid player when they only have one year left on their contract.

Bingo.

A surprising number of fans seem to be cheering, not for players and on-ice results, but for a team's cap management - measured against some theory whereby it is ALWAYS an unforgiveable, franchise-destroying sin to 'overpay.' The reality is far more complicated. 'Bad contracts' very often end up looking far better than the alternative...and often don't end up looking all that bad at all, really.

Take Cole. You're telling me that, the way he's been playing over the last stretch, you don't want him on our team? - big, fast, power forward who makes things happen? Yes, it's a 'bad contract' in terms of length, but what that means is that it will likely look bad in the final season or season and a half. Meanwhile, you've acquired 2-3 years' prime-time service from a player who is EXACTLY what the lineup needed. Why obsess over what the deal will look like on the back end and ignore its benefits prior to that? Hamrlik's contract was similarly derided as a grotesque overpayment, yet he was an absolute rock for us for three of its four seasons and our team would have been significantly worse without him over that span. I never seriously regretted that deal.

Even Philly with Pronger. For God's sake, the guy led them to the Finals and is still the engine that drives that bus. I'm sure that contract will hurt when he's 41 or whatever, but I doubt anyone in Philly is grumbling about it because he will add so much value for the bulk of the deal. (Not that I'd really want that deal). Even Briere, he's been a great little player for them. If he's a drain during the last couple of years of the contract, does that invalidate his excellent contributions for the previous six?

Bottom line, every (good) team carries players whose contracts look bad at any particular juncture. Unless you're Columbus or Calgary - locked in long-term to a cellar-dwelling disaster - it's silly to overthink cap issues.

Cap space doesn't win. Players do. And this is the secret of teams like Vancouver, Philly, Chicago and Boston, they get the guys they want and sort out the cap issues later. The real key is not to avoid overpaying, it's to have good young players who can take quality shifts and add cheap value to the cap-costly core.

[Fanpuck33]

Rivet for Gorges and the pick used to take Pacioretty is clearly the best trade the Habs have made in years. I don't even think there is a close 2nd.

[Habsy]

Bang on Fanpuck. C'mon Mr. Gauthier, lose the moronic philosophy that you can't negotiate during the season, and sign Josh to a long term deal. It would be a nice Xmas present for us all. That has to be the dumbest approach in all of sports, this wait till the summer garbage.

[l<OV4L3V]

signing Cammalleri was the best move Habs have done in years. (one of the biggest reasons we made it to East Finals?), Rivet for Gorges, Halak for Lars Eller is turning out to be pretty solid (despite being opposed to it during the time), the bad moves: gomez, not trading players for assets at trade deadline for countless amount of years, Ribs for Ninnemma, Firing Carbo/letting Muller walk, not re-signing solid depth players (Metropolit, Moore)

that's all I can think of..for now

[Trizzak]

Bang on Fanpuck. C'mon Mr. Gauthier, lose the moronic philosophy that you can't negotiate during the season, and sign Josh to a long term deal. It would be a nice Xmas present for us all. That has to be the dumbest approach in all of sports, this wait till the summer garbage.

Well he did just sign Tinordi, which I don't think has been done before by Gainey/Gauthier. That would suggest they're moving away from the "wait till summer" philosophy.

[bbp]

signing Cammalleri was the best move Habs have done in years. (one of the biggest reasons we made it to East Finals?), Rivet for Gorges, Halak for Lars Eller is turning out to be pretty solid (despite being opposed to it during the time), the bad moves: gomez, not trading players for assets at trade deadline for countless amount of years, Ribs for Ninnemma, Firing Carbo/letting Muller walk, not re-signing solid depth players (Metropolit, Moore)

that's all I can think of..for now

Cammy has been huge for us in the playoffs and Georges-Rivet was amazing I agree, I like Eller so Halak Eller is good. Never liked Ribs. Carbo wasn't that good of a coach no? I thought it was decided he was part of the reason we were a losing team (he hasn't got a job since). I agree with Muller and the depth. I loved Muller's style and solid/consistent depth players are the a markee of teams like Detroit who has been one of the best teams in resent years!

I do not understand why we let depth players go only to sign new ones to fill the same role. What about Detroit with Drapper and that lot? Could have got younger cheap guys but they didn't. These guys had the experience and played hard for Detroit. I think some more loyalty would be great for our bottom sixer's.