hab29RETIRED Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Unlikely as it sounds, we are in total agreement on these boldfaced points. The season is a wash; let's concentrate on youth. Of course, it has to be said that doing this may actually require benching them and using them in ways you disagree with here and there. The path of player development never did run straight. As for the vets, I don't think you get anywhere by blaming them publicly, but they absolutely should be held accountable on the ice and benching Eller in particular, rather than Cammy, was very odd. Jim Nill = no brainer. We may or may not appreciate Gainey's tenure as GM, but the fact is that when he was available, he was far and away the best man for the job and the Habs aggressively went after him and got him. In contrast, Gauthier was an insider hired without any external search. Molson needs to take that earlier, get-your-man-at-all-costs attitude and bring Nill aboard. Provided we have a bilingual coach, I do not believe an anglo GM will cause too many problems once the initial outrage subsides. I don't have any issues with benching young players to send a message or have them learn from the pressbox - never have. What i have an issue with is when veterans are NOT held accountable at all. JM gave a free pass to guys like Gomez, Moen, Cammy, Gill, Hammer, Spacek when they were struggling or playing like crap, but pounced on the kids. During Martin's first camp, he pounced on SK74 in his FIRST friggin practice and started chewing him out. At least try and develop a relationship with a player before you start ripping into him!!!! But like i said, to me its about accountability for EVERYONE, not just the kids. THis past year, if it was embarressing the way JM after every friggin press conference until he got fired was blaming the kids, when clearly many of the games were loss due to the crappy play of the team's so called leaders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 First Callups: Leblanc, Palushaj, Gallagher, Kristo Just one thing to note, Palushaj is coming off his EL contract this season, so I think that means he'll need to clear waivers to go to the minors next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I want a retool.... My plan Take the team we have now Minus Weber - traded for a forward prospect or draft pick. Minus Campoli - traded for a forward prospect or draft pick. Minus Gill - traded for a forward prospect or draft pick. Minus Darche - explore all trade options at deadline, even for a 7th round pick.... still doubtful he's traded, he walks as a UFA. Minus Gomez - figure out how... anything..... new CBA, traded, buried in minors... something because you need this cap space. Add Coach Gerard Gallant Add Healthy Andrei markov. Attempt to Re-Sign Travis Moen, Josh Gorges, Andrei kostitsyn. Start negotiations in January. Give them fair offers, but tell their agents that the offer is only on the table until 48 hours before the trade deadline. If they still won't sign trade them. Whoever of Moen, Gorges, Kosty is traded at the deadline, find a replacement via UFA (you can even make them offers to come back on July 1st) but gotta re-sign or replace these guys. Add a Legitmate C who can play a 1a/1b role with Plekanec; turn every stone to find one in the trade market. If none becomes available offer a 1 year stop gap deal to Olli Jokinen... but thats just a stop gap. Sign Physical Third Pairing/7th defenceman in UFA. (Candidates Andy Sutton, Kurt Sauer, Shane O'Brien, Aaron Rome) Lineup Cammalleri - Plekanec - Cole Pacioretty - #1B Centre - Gionta Desharnais - Eller - AKostitsyn Moen - Nokaleinen - White First Callups: Leblanc, Palushaj, Gallagher, Kristo Defence Markov - Gorges Emelin - Subban Kaberle - UFA D Extra: Diaz Price Budaj I think we are in agreement for the strategy and most of the moves that are required. I pretty much posted the same plan in the Getting Ready for 2012/2013 thread I started. with the exception of Kaberle, Moen and Cammy. I don't want either back. With respect to Cammy, I want guys that show up every night. I think Moen should bring in a good return from a contender, given the start he had to this year. With respect to Kaberle, if Markov comes back, (I think/HOPE he will be fine), I'd move him. I'd rather see if we can bring someone who would be a better influence on young players then him if Markov is worse then I think he is. There are too many examples of other teams that have taken on the old losing leafs. ALl those teams suck right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I don't have any issues with benching young players to send a message or have them learn from the pressbox - never have. What i have an issue with is when veterans are NOT held accountable at all. JM gave a free pass to guys like Gomez, Moen, Cammy, Gill, Hammer, Spacek when they were struggling or playing like crap, but pounced on the kids. During Martin's first camp, he pounced on SK74 in his FIRST friggin practice and started chewing him out. At least try and develop a relationship with a player before you start ripping into him!!!! But like i said, to me its about accountability for EVERYONE, not just the kids. THis past year, if it was embarressing the way JM after every friggin press conference until he got fired was blaming the kids, when clearly many of the games were loss due to the crappy play of the team's so called leaders. I know where you're coming from. Still, I think the issue with 'accountability' for veterans is that, if you start benching them, you lose them, and then ultimately you lose the room. It's not 1965, where coaches can rule with an iron fist. Martin knew that his tenure would live and die by his veterans, as most teams do; and ultimately (Mike Gillis says this in Vancouver all the time) accountability has to come from within, from those vets themselves. Otherwise you just get a war of attrition with the coach in an environment where it's easier to fire a coach than to move players. So it's not that I think you're wrong in principle, so much as I think that you're asking Martin to take an extremely high-risk gamble with his own job. The irony, of course, is that it didn't save his job in the end. As for the media remarks, I think a lot of that was aimed at the GM as code for 'get me a veteran defenceman who can run a PP.' Remember how he publicly defended Kostitsyn during his pathetic 2010 playoff? I wouldn't make too much of the media stuff. Anyway, you make a good point about Moen, he might be a guy to move because his value is likely as high now as it will ever be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Given that I like our team on paper, I could get behind that. It's pretty conservative, though, and I suspect that Cammalleri might be an element in a trade for that elusive C. People will say he's untradable because of his contract, but with his playoff track-record and career numbers, I think some teams will be interested. Teams that are interested (read playoff teams) are not going to give a core player for him. They willl be looking to replace Pronger. I have already said, I'd like to see us target Brandon Schenn from Philly for Cammy and dmen (Gill, Weber, Kaberle, Campoli) and take back a contract in return to make the cap hit work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Given that I like our team on paper, I could get behind that. It's pretty conservative, though, and I suspect that Cammalleri might be an element in a trade for that elusive C. People will say he's untradable because of his contract, but with his playoff track-record and career numbers, I think some teams will be interested. I didn't actually move any pieces out for my C... so something will need to be moved. I just didn't want to get into what exactly it would be, because I don't know what Cs are available, and what the team trading them has in terms of needs. I'm not real big on making proposals anyway.... Teams that are interested (read playoff teams) are not going to give a core player for him. They willl be looking to replace Pronger. I have already said, I'd like to see us target Brandon Schenn from Philly for Cammy and dmen (Gill, Weber, Kaberle, Campoli) and take back a contract in return to make the cap hit work. If they are looking to replace Pronger; they aren't going to be coming to us for those guys. They are gonna want a legit shut down guy. You'd have to deal them Gorges. Also other teams may have more to offer than we do in legit top 4 Dmen. And I highly doubt Schenn would be on the table for a rental... he was the centerpiece of the trade for Mike Richards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I didn't actually move any pieces out for my C... so something will need to be moved. I just didn't want to get into what exactly it would be, because I don't know what Cs are available, and what the team trading them has in terms of needs. I'm not real big on making proposals anyway.... Me either. (In fact, it usually leads to a lot of frustration, as in 'why did he get THIS guy when I said we should go after THAT guy,' etc., etc., as though this were NHL 2012). The point is the spirit of your proposal, which is NOT a jettisoning of the core so much as surgical adjustments. I'm down with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I didn't actually move any pieces out for my C... so something will need to be moved. I just didn't want to get into what exactly it would be, because I don't know what Cs are available, and what the team trading them has in terms of needs. I'm not real big on making proposals anyway.... If they are looking to replace Pronger; they aren't going to be coming to us for those guys. They are gonna want a legit shut down guy. You'd have to deal them Gorges. Also other teams may have more to offer than we do in legit top 4 Dmen. And I highly doubt Schenn would be on the table for a rental... he was the centerpiece of the trade for Mike Richards. He was the main guy, but if they have a legit chance to go all the way - and the Flyers are loaded at centre. Teams in those situations are willing to move top end prospects. Iginla was making a big name for himself, when Gainey traded him to Calgary for Neiwendyk. I love Gorges. But to me it would be a no brainer if Schenn was available for Gorges. Who knows, with the shit going on here, he may not want to stick around. Moreover, he is a UFA, so you could try and still resign him in the summer (fat chance, but you could try - even tell him that prior to making the deal). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 BTH is completely right to say that the idea of internal divisions is speculative. That is the vibe I'm getting off these guys. The symptoms of a team with chemistry problems are not losing per se, but rather losing listlessly, not sacrificing to help each other, not trusting each other on the ice, being completely out of sync. While the team perhaps isn't as bad as all that. its play is not normal and has not been for a while. Last season's group got everything out of itself. This year is the opposite. Nevertheless, I could still be quite wrong that internal problems are the root of all this. If, however, I'm not wrong, then I don't ultimately see what choice you have other than to move the feuding players. I'm NOT talking about 'addition by subtraction,' a logic I completely reject. I'm talking about making deals that bring comparable talent back but address one or two key 'chemistry problems;' you can cite Chelios-Savard all you like, but Serge Savard also moved Corson for Damphousse and Courtnall for Bellows as a response to such chemistry problems, and in doing so acquired 2/3 of our 1993 first line. That's more in the way of what I have in mind. Every losing team looks like that! It's possible to look good in a single loss but if your team is consistently losing, I bet they look completely uncoordinated on the ice. Claiming rifts in the dressing room is the easiest explanation because it allows for the choosing of a scapegoat. In the second paragraph, you're talking about hockey chemistry, not personality chemistry. Obviously, GMs need to consider what each player will bring in relation to the group of players he is being added to, but that is different from speculating that X, Y, and Z are feuding with A, B, and C based on the way they play. Gauthier has more access to their feuds than we do, but from our perspective, as mere viewers without inside information, we really have no window into the locker room dynamics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 He was the main guy, but if they have a legit chance to go all the way - and the Flyers are loaded at centre. Teams in those situations are willing to move top end prospects. Iginla was making a big name for himself, when Gainey traded him to Calgary for Neiwendyk. I love Gorges. But to me it would be a no brainer if Schenn was available for Gorges. Who knows, with the shit going on here, he may not want to stick around. Moreover, he is a UFA, so you could try and still resign him in the summer (fat chance, but you could try - even tell him that prior to making the deal). Of course it would be a no brainer for gorges straight up. But for Schenn... who was the centrepiece to the Mike Richards deal... Its gonna take more than that. I was thinking Philly might be interested in Gorges, not that they'd give up Schenn for him. I think you'd get picks or other prospects. And Holmgren has a history of giving up 1st rounders. If I got the idea that Gorges wouldn't sign; I'd try to get Philly's first rounder; plus something else. This draft is so deep, it would be nice to have a couple extra picks... 4-5 picks in the first two rounds would be awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 And all of this because we made a coach "interim." By doing that, they hacked him off at the knees. Now Gauthier is backed into a corner. Micky Mouse Molson is running the show, lads. I hope he's just being nice and allowing people to keep jobs through Christmas, because really, he needs to move fast and purge and get decisive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 And all of this because we made a coach "interim." By doing that, they hacked him off at the knees. Now Gauthier is backed into a corner. Micky Mouse Molson is running the show, lads. I hope he's just being nice and allowing people to keep jobs through Christmas, because really, he needs to move fast and purge and get decisive. I agree with what you're saying here; that we've cut Randy off at the knees and its messed things up. However I'm not sure about your narrative. Making him interim wasn't so bad... What PG did wasn't that big a mistake. Tons of teams name "interim" coaches and then if they do well, hire them full time. Where we messed up was Molson's press release which said that "bilingualism is important" to the choice of the next full time coach. As soon as you did that; you made Cunneyworth a lame duck. No matter how well the team did, he was in a no win situation. And that is the moment you lost the room IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 <br>I agree with what you're saying here; that we've cut Randy off at the knees and its messed things up. However I'm not sure about your narrative.<br> <br> Making him interim wasn't so bad... What PG did wasn't that big a mistake. Tons of teams name "interim" coaches and then if they do well, hire them full time.<br> <br> Where we messed up was Molson's press release which said that "bilingualism is important" to the choice of the next full time coach. As soon as you did that; you made Cunneyworth a lame duck. No matter how well the team did, he was in a no win situation. And that is the moment you lost the room IMO.<br> I agree. Making a guy an interim coach, with the understanding that if he succeeds he has a shot at the job is fine. But when you have a friggin owner releasing and idiotic press release and knuckling under media and pressure from wing nut politicians like the culture minister was about the dumbest thing Molson could have done. It was a time for ownership to back the leadership team. Instead he killed any chance this team had this year to get into the playoffs - however slim it was. This after the whole "Chara police investigation" is really going to make montreal a laughing stock for the league. For an organization that prides itself on secrecy and not saying much, Molson really put his foot in this mouth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Just one thing to note, Palushaj is coming off his EL contract this season, so I think that means he'll need to clear waivers to go to the minors next season. Make him the 13th forward instead of first callup. I have no pressbox forward in my lineup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Oh and how about this guy for the #1b centre. You wouldn't have to give up any assets, just keep losing. Mikhail Grigorenko. I'm willing to accept losing the rest of the year just to get him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsy Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 If we're talking fire Gauthier, Scotty Bowman just had some nice things to say about Pierre McGuire. I know some around here would like to see him get a chance. He said that Pierre's done a great job in the media, but he's more of a hockey guy, than a media type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I really don't want McGuire. Like really don't want that guy. Too reactionary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.