Summer 2014 Target UFAs

[Lovett's Magnatones]

We've all basically outlined that article on this forum. It all makes sense. I also truly believe we won't see Plekanec back next year in a Habs uni'.

I hope not, just to get a different look to the roster. But it sounds like more Markov, more Gio, more Plek.

[Guest Stogey24]

I hope not, just to get a different look to the roster. But it sounds like more Markov, more Gio, more Plek.

Gio and Plek aren't leading Montreal to the cup. If Plek is back I can understand why, but if Gionta gets an extension I will be seriously questioning M.B's decision making skills.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I agree that it'd be better to have someone with size playing Gio's role. However, the decision to re-sign him would have to be weighed against the other available options out there. The organization is already very weak at RW; getting rid of Gio, taken in isolation, would deprive us of a 20-goal, 40-point RW to no good end. That's a terrible move. So the question is: are there bigger, more physical, defensively effective RW on the market who will provide comparable offence without locking us into massive and long-term contracts? If there are, then we should ditch Gio and look to them. If there aren't - or if they are long shots to sign here - then you might as well re-up the captain, provided the deal makes sense.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

I agree that it'd be better to have someone with size playing Gio's role. However, the decision to re-sign him would have to be weighed against the other available options out there. The organization is already very weak at RW; getting rid of Gio, taken in isolation, would deprive us of a 20-goal, 40-point RW to no good end. That's a terrible move. So the question is: are there bigger, more physical, defensively effective RW on the market who will provide comparable offence without locking us into massive and long-term contracts? If there are, then we should ditch Gio and look to them. If there aren't - or if they are long shots to sign here - then you might as well re-up the captain, provided the deal makes sense.

I just want him off the team. If Bourque and Briere get that ice team, they can come within 2-3 goals away from the difference. I'd really like to see them roll three lines, in that they don't focus on matchups, and have to see an anti-entertainment line out there for 18-20 minutes per game.

I think the match up line is going out. If you look at the four conference final teams, only the Habs relied on a shut down/exploitation line. I can't think of a West Coast team does that, and they're ahead of the curve. On the best teams, their top players play defense well and scoring is coming from possessing the puck. Having two polar opposite centers in Desh/Plek will only handicap the team in the long run.

Plus, watching Plek and Gio play is worse than doing data entry in a cubicle.

[Trizzak]

Plus, watching Plek and Gio play is worse than doing data entry in a cubicle.

Gionta: "Pleks, wouldn't it be beautiful if I did a nice little backhand saucer pass to you, then you did I nice little spin-pass to Galchenyuk, and he laced a top corner shot to give us a 4 - 0 lead? Wouldn't it be beautiful?"

Pleks: "Wow, it really would... it really would..."

Gionta: "Yeah..."

Pleks: "... well, better dump it in the corner."

Galchenyuk: "I ing hate you guys"

Bourque: "Where am I? Who are you?!?!"

fin

[Lovett's Magnatones]

Gionta: "Pleks, wouldn't it be beautiful if I did a nice little backhand saucer pass to you, then you did I nice little spin-pass to Galchenyuk, and he laced a top corner shot to give us a 4 - 0 lead? Wouldn't it be beautiful?"

Pleks: "Wow, it really would... it really would..."

Gionta: "Yeah..."

Pleks: "... well, better dump it in the corner."

Galchenyuk: "I ######ing hate you guys"

Bourque: "Where am I? Who are you?!?!"

fin

Vanek-"You know, I can hold the puck at the blue line, and then you streak up the ice off the rush, and drop it back to me. I'll either shoot, or find the F3 at the back door.

Plek-"Where will the opposing center be during all this."

Vanek-underhisbreath "noingwayIsignnoway."

[DON]

Resign own UFAs would be an OK plan (add one winger also)

Gionta is 9th highest goal-scoring UFA forward this off-season.

You can guarantee if Habs don't sign him, someone else quickly will and same for Markov, who would fit nicely on many teams rosters, including Habs.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Unless his demands are ridiculous, Markov is a no-brainer - again because of the absence of superior UFA options out there.

[Commandant]

We've all basically outlined that article on this forum. It all makes sense. I also truly believe we won't see Plekanec back next year in a Habs uni'

I think that would be a major mistake unless we get a true 1st line winger or top pairing defender in retrun. Anything less than that and I think its a big mistake all in the name of size.

This playoffs should have taught us, speed and skill are still critical.

[KoRP]

Agreed that speed and skill are still critical, but I believe you need a good percentage of players who can bring it physically, and take the puck to the net on the offensive side, as well as a couple of D in your 6 that can punish players physically. Habs didn't have much of either this year past.

Moar big aside, moving the puck, both out of your zone, and into the opposition's zone is what separates the good teams from the ones that are mediocre, and that's skill, speed and physicality, but as much coaching and game plan. You still need players that can win physical battles along the boards, especially in the playoffs, even if partly because of their speed that win those battles, there still has to be size and strength in the mix to execute. Habs never take the body in their zone as much as they wave the stick, and rely on being first to pucks. When not first to pucks, you need to be able take the man, and eliminate possession, to initiate moving the puck out of your zone. If you can't play a man to man D system at times, against some teams you are just outmatched.

I admit, DD won a great many battles in this years playoffs, because of speed and effort, but he also lost a few battles because even though he is fast, and has an effort level of 200%, he is still too small to consistently win battles, and keep it up for long over a series, especially in the defensive zone.... simple fact for Habs team is there are just too many small, not so skilled and not so fast players. I'd keep DD, and Gallagher, but jettison Gionta, Briere up front, and Gorges on the back end for starters

Balance....

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Everyone agrees that we ought to be bigger up front.

It doesn't follow that we should trade Plekanec, unless you're sold on Eller as a fully adequate replacement for the near-elite two-way game Pleks provides.

I keep coming back to the alternatives. People want to get rid of Gio. Great, but just subtracting him hugely weakens our lineup. You have to replace him with a comparable or superior player. The same is true of the "trade Pleks" or "let Markov walk" crowd.

None of these guys are indispensable, but their role needs to be filled if they are moved. Otherwise you're just solving one problem by creating another huge problem.

[Guest Stogey24]

Everyone agrees that we ought to be bigger up front.

It doesn't follow that we should trade Plekanec, unless you're sold on Eller as a fully adequate replacement for the near-elite two-way game Pleks provides.

I keep coming back to the alternatives. People want to get rid of Gio. Great, but just subtracting him hugely weakens our lineup. You have to replace him with a comparable or superior player. The same is true of the "trade Pleks" or "let Markov walk" crowd.

None of these guys are indispensable, but their role needs to be filled if they are moved. Otherwise you're just solving one problem by creating another huge problem.

1 goal in 17 games for Gionta in the playoffs and we did alright. I wasn't even that happy with Gionta's defensive play.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

Gionta is useless. He scored 19 goals in 99 games last year. He will score 15 next year on a 4 million dollar deal. That can be replaced by any number of free agents, and even Danny Briere. At some point, you have to consider the ice time he and Plekanec have while contributing below average production. It's not enough to say "oh, well, they backcheck." We have all the backchecking we want in Michael Bournival.

Enough is enough.

We have too many of one type of player. It never works out. They need to upgrade. With Price/Subban/Markov and an elite PK, defensive forwards just aren't as important on this team. Just because they made the Conference Finals, doesn't mean that they are "true contenders" of which I only believe there are 2-4 per year. The best teams have balance, and the second tier teams have too many of one player type or glaring deficiencies.

True Contenders

LAK

BOS

CHI

Second Tier

SJ-Soft, mediocre goaltending

STL-3 #1 defensemen, poor scoring depth

ANA-Soft, young, goaltending

MON-Too small, not enough depth on the wings, need a top 2 Dman

NYR-Old, soft, overrated defense
PITT-Two # 1 centers, two flashy offensive D, the circus known as MAF

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

OK, fine, we can replace Gionta via the UFA market. What's available? Looking at Capgeek's list, Iginla, Setogouchi (although Gio outscored him) and Vrbata are the only available RW who arguably represent upgrades on Gio and who could probably be signed without tying us to cripplingly bloated long-term contracts. Callaghan supposedly wants an absurd contract, like $6 mil, all for numbers that are no better than Gio's; so scratch him off the list.

So those are your three options, seemingly. Iginla will be hotly in demand and therefore signing him is not a no-brainer (I'd guess he'll stay in Boston). Now you're down to Vrbata and Setoguchi - the latter, again, having had a worse season than Gionta. So did another stretch, i.e., Stempinak.

Again: it's all well and good to talk about the need for an upgrade. But identifying the need doesn't automatically generate the solution. Gio remains better than a lot of other options at RW, and if Bergevin ends up signing him, it will be because of that calculation, not necessarily because he regards Gionta as some sort of ideal answer. Like politics, general managing is the art of the possible.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

OK, fine, we can replace Gionta via the UFA market. What's available? Looking at Capgeek's list, Iginla, Setogouchi (although Gio outscored him) and Vrbata are the only available RW who arguably represent upgrades on Gio and who could probably be signed without tying us to cripplingly bloated long-term contracts. Callaghan supposedly wants an absurd contract, like $6 mil, all for numbers that are no better than Gio's; so scratch him off the list.

So those are your three options, seemingly. Iginla will be hotly in demand and therefore signing him is not a no-brainer (I'd guess he'll stay in Boston). Now you're down to Vrbata and Setoguchi - the latter, again, having had a worse season than Gionta. So did another stretch, i.e., Stempinak.

Again: it's all well and good to talk about the need for an upgrade. But identifying the need doesn't automatically generate the solution. Gio remains better than a lot of other options at RW, and if Bergevin ends up signing him, it will be because of that calculation, not necessarily because he regards Gionta as some sort of ideal answer. Like politics, general managing is the art of the possible.

It's not just production. He's a Captain from two administrations ago. I want a Captain like Markov/Subban or even Gorges that represents the current iteration of the team. Having him in that role is like the Cats bringing back JovoCop for one last spin on a 10 million dollar contract.

For all the talk of leadership, it might be right, but I can only go by what I see on the TV. Aside from his penalty shot goal against the Rangers, I can't remember him scoring one significant goal since the run in 2010. For all the "defensive talk" i'll admit I don't know much about that side of the game, but he brings nothing physical to the table.

We are the Habs. We deserve an inspiring, and dare I say, cool captain for this rising team.

I definitely wouldn't be surprised to see two or three right wingers drafted this year.

[dlbalr]

IFor all the talk of leadership, it might be right, but I can only go by what I see on the TV. Aside from his penalty shot goal against the Rangers, I can't remember him scoring one significant goal since the run in 2010. For all the "defensive talk" i'll admit I don't know much about that side of the game, but he brings nothing physical to the table.

He had 3 GWG's this year, tied for 3rd on the team (the PS winner in Game 82 being one of them). He was tied for 2nd in GWG's in 2012-13. Although GWG's can sometimes be misleading, I suspect at least a couple of these goals beyond the NYR OT one were significant.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

He had 3 GWG's this year, tied for 3rd on the team (the PS winner in Game 82 being one of them). He was tied for 2nd in GWG's in 2012-13. Although GWG's can sometimes be misleading, I suspect at least a couple of these goals beyond the NYR OT one were significant.

I just don't like the guy. He's like Boston having Jason Allison as a Captain in the 90's. Is this thing ever going to end?!

Is Gio going to get small deals until retirement, and then immediately sign on as a scout?

Will he be running the Habs in ten years?

I'm very much at a loss to understand the allegiance to a Captain who has never scored thirty goals or been to a Stanley Cup Final.

Seriously, we're entering "Florida Panthers Fans Talking About Brian Skrudland" terriotry.

[Trizzak]

Habs have a problem at right wing and Brian Gionta is the answer?

Are we really clamoring for a 5'7", 35 year old, 40 point player who is on a downswing to his career just because he has leadership and some defensive responsibility?

We've squeezed all we can out of him.

If free agency isn't the answer, and promoting from within isn't the answer, then trading is the answer. Gionta is not the answer.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I'm not sure I see why Gionta's captaincy is some terribly degrading, franchise-destroying problem the Habs absolutely must overcome. The team this season showed tremendous resiliency, and Price said it had the best chemistry of any Habs team he's been on. That suggests good internal leadership, of which the captain is presumably a part. Gio has won Cups (unlike most guys in that room), has been on two Habs semi-finalists in his five years with us, and is universally respected for his work ethic, commitment, and success despite small size.

Against this, we have some amorphous argument that captains have to be "cool." That seems a pretty cruddy rationale for hockey decisions.

As for the idea that we MUST engineer a trade to replace Gionta rather than just re-sign him, it also seems dubious. Besides the fact that they can be incredibly difficult to engineer, trades add to your team in one area while weakening you in another, unless you have internal replacements ready for the guy(s) you're trading away. Like I keep saying, IF you think Eller is ready to eat Plekanec's minutes, then you can start to contemplate trading a player like Pleks for a RW. By contrast, if we just make such a trade due to some quasi-religious belief that we MUST NOT!!!! have Brian Gionta on our team, then we upgrade (or make a lateral move) at RW and create new holes elsewhere in the roster. Whoop-de-doo.

Contrary to Trizzak's rhetoric, nobody, but nobody, is "clamouring" for us to keep Gionta. I'll bet you everyone readings this agrees that an upgrade on Gionta is desirable in principle. What I'm saying is the following:

1. RW is our weakest position by far and we have no internal replacements for Gionta.

2. We would be idiots to let him walk without replacing him with a comparable or superior option. There are only a couple of superior options on the UFA market.

3. Failing to re-sign him OR one of those superior options puts us in a desperate situation at RW and forces us to make a trade which will probably create substantial new roster problems. All because you didn't want a 20-goal, 40-point RW on a two-year deal.

4. Therefore, re-signing Gio to a short-term and tolerably affordable deal makes sense under the circumstances.

The whole debate reminds me a bit of the anti-Koivu arguments that used to circulate, e.g., people want some mythical Stud Centreman, blamed Koivu for not being it, and therefore fell prey to the delusion that just getting rid of Koivu would somehow automatically translate into achieving the desired objective. It was bad logic then and it's bad logic now.

[KoRP]

Everyone agrees that we ought to be bigger up front.

It doesn't follow that we should trade Plekanec, unless you're sold on Eller as a fully adequate replacement for the near-elite two-way game Pleks provides.

I keep coming back to the alternatives. People want to get rid of Gio. Great, but just subtracting him hugely weakens our lineup. You have to replace him with a comparable or superior player. The same is true of the "trade Pleks" or "let Markov walk" crowd.

None of these guys are indispensable, but their role needs to be filled if they are moved. Otherwise you're just solving one problem by creating another huge problem.

I didn't mention trading Plek did I? But since you mentioned it, yep, there's a way to get a quality RW !

As far as the rest of your point, I think Bournival can bring more than Gionta if given the chance, so the line up wont be "depleted" imo, and the Habs have leadership in the younger stars they do have....

[DON]

I would guess Gionta is extended anytime now, Markov after that and maybe trade some stuff for Spezza? And habs will be set for 2014-15.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

The Old Guard on this team had been a figurehead since the Cammi trade.

This team belongs to the young stars, the Subbans, Prices, Paciorettys, and the bevvy of young talent that's flooded the roster for the last four years.

Keeping Gionta around is akin to the Queen of England. We don't owe him anything. He's not a flying Frenchman, or even Andre Markov, who imo, is worth keeping around a year or two too long.

Think of who we could get for 5 million dollars. Callahan might come down to that price. Kulemin would, so would Vrbata who is a great player. Even Hemsky would. There are a lot of options to replace Gionta, and remember, he hasn't been on the second line for 20-30 games.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

The Old Guard on this team had been a figurehead since the Cammi trade.

This team belongs to the young stars, the Subbans, Prices, Paciorettys, and the bevvy of young talent that's flooded the roster for the last four years.

Keeping Gionta around is akin to the Queen of England. We don't owe him anything. He's not a flying Frenchman, or even Andre Markov, who imo, is worth keeping around a year or two too long.

Think of who we could get for 5 million dollars. Callahan might come down to that price. Kulemin would, so would Vrbata who is a great player. Even Hemsky would. There are a lot of options to replace Gionta, and remember, he hasn't been on the second line for 20-30 games.

If Gio wants $5 mil we should send him packing. And note you can sign and then trade him later, ya know (a NTC is also a demand that Zoot Suit should laughingly reject).

Meanwhile, I wouldn't touch Hemsky with a 20-foot hockey stick, Callahan won't sign for that, Kumelin is an interesting "project" player, Setguchi likewise - both are statistically quite a bit worse than Gionta - and Vrbata or Iggy would be a excellent acquisitions. Jussi Jokinen is officially a LW but can play the right side, he'd be another good pick-up.

Like I say: if we can upgrade Gio, then I'm all for it. Heck, KoRP's point that Bournival qualifies as an internal replacement is worth considering as well. In fact that's probably the "move Gio" argument I'm most sympathetic towards, one I'd sort of lost sight of in all this. What I'm NOT in favour of is letting guys go without adequate replacements, and I'm definitely not in favour of letting guys go if doing so means you have to then trade some core piece in order to make up for that (!), which is simply a bizarre fantasy-league way of thinking. I also don't buy this "old guard" stuff, which is more about fans feeling a certain way about the team than anything that actually goes on on the ice. Everybody knows the real drivers of this bus are Subban, Price and to a lesser extent Patches. It doesn't follow that we need a Stalinist purge of all veterans on the club.

But like I say, Gio or no Gio, it's all the same to me, provided we have quality RW in September.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

If Gio wants $5 mil we should send him packing. And note you can sign and then trade him later, ya know (a NTC is also a demand that Zoot Suit should laughingly reject).

Meanwhile, I wouldn't touch Hemsky with a 20-foot hockey stick, Callahan won't sign for that, Kumelin is an interesting "project" player, Setguchi likewise - both are statistically quite a bit worse than Gionta - and Vrbata or Iggy would be a excellent acquisitions. Jussi Jokinen is officially a LW but can play the right side, he'd be another good pick-up.

Like I say: if we can upgrade Gio, then I'm all for it. Heck, KoRP's point that Bournival qualifies as an internal replacement is worth considering as well. In fact that's probably the "move Gio" argument I'm most sympathetic towards, one I'd sort of lost sight of in all this. What I'm NOT in favour of is letting guys go without adequate replacements, and I'm definitely not in favour of letting guys go if doing so means you have to then trade some core piece in order to make up for that (!), which is simply a bizarre fantasy-league way of thinking. I also don't buy this "old guard" stuff, which is more about fans feeling a certain way about the team than anything that actually goes on on the ice. Everybody knows the real drivers of this bus are Subban, Price and to a lesser extent Patches. It doesn't follow that we need a Stalinist purge of all veterans on the club.

But like I say, Gio or no Gio, it's all the same to me, provided we have quality RW in September.

But how can MB be "The Man of Steel" like Stalin, if he can't crush Gio like a bug? 1 year, 1.5 mil!

[habs rule]

But how can MB be "The Man of Steel" like Stalin, if he can't crush Gio like a bug? 1 year, 1.5 mil!

I like your thinking.