Commandant Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Elliotte Friedman wrote a lot about the Habs and their system in this week's 30 thoughts. http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/30-thoughts-canadiens-more-than-a-one-man-team/ If you look at the system Elliotte talks about, you see exactly why Semin is not in the lineup. He can't play this system.... its all about getting the puck out of danger, and creating races for loose pucks which the Habs usually win due to superior team speed. Semin can't play this system, he can't skate. You can say 10 games isn't enough, but 10 games is more than enough for me to see his skating speed is just not up to par. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Elliotte Friedman wrote a lot about the Habs and their system in this week's 30 thoughts. http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/30-thoughts-canadiens-more-than-a-one-man-team/ If you look at the system Elliotte talks about, you see exactly why Semin is not in the lineup. He can't play this system.... its all about getting the puck out of danger, and creating races for loose pucks which the Habs usually win due to superior team speed. Semin can't play this system, he can't skate. You can say 10 games isn't enough, but 10 games is more than enough for me to see his skating speed is just not up to par. It's a totally valid point. But the alternatives to Semin in the top-6 seem to be Cement Hands Pelly, Forgettable Flynn, and Lord Byron. No doubt all those guys are better 'fits' for the Habs system - but they are also kinda laughable as top-6 options on ANY team. The case for Semin is not that he's a brilliant fit, it's that he, at least, has produced offence at the NHL level and has formidable skills in certain respects. He is the only one of the four who even begins to resemble a plausible top-6 FW. Don't get me wrong, I am a certified skeptic about Semin, and was from the get-go. But the case for permanently benching him falls apart when you consider the dismal quaity of the alternatives. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Price (no relation) Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 That's a scary good point by Friedman. Thanks, Commandant. I hadn't known about the Montreal "dump out of their own zone" statistic until I read that. I mean, I see it on the ice, but the only team I regularly watch is Montreal, and the difference didn't occur to me. Normally a bad tactic, but when you have enough speed, it becomes both beneficial and very dangerous to your opponents. This is probably also why faster teams seem to play much, much better against the Habs. It nullifies their advantage on dumpouts, and turns it back into a bad tactic. So...here's the next question - does the team adjust when the dump out isn't working? I think they do. We've seen several first periods where they get dominated in their own end, then they come back out and turn the tables. I would need to go back and watch them again now, but I'd bet when Montreal's dump-out tactic isn't working, they switch to carrying the puck more. Small adjustments... of course then, as a defender, you have to be aware of which opponents are on the ice at the time. Get a couple mediocre skaters out there, and suddenly it's open season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 That's a scary good point by Friedman. Thanks, Commandant. I hadn't known about the Montreal "dump out of their own zone" statistic until I read that. I mean, I see it on the ice, but the only team I regularly watch is Montreal, and the difference didn't occur to me. Normally a bad tactic, but when you have enough speed, it becomes both beneficial and very dangerous to your opponents. This is probably also why faster teams seem to play much, much better against the Habs. It nullifies their advantage on dumpouts, and turns it back into a bad tactic. So...here's the next question - does the team adjust when the dump out isn't working? I think they do. We've seen several first periods where they get dominated in their own end, then they come back out and turn the tables. I would need to go back and watch them again now, but I'd bet when Montreal's dump-out tactic isn't working, they switch to carrying the puck more. Small adjustments... of course then, as a defender, you have to be aware of which opponents are on the ice at the time. Get a couple mediocre skaters out there, and suddenly it's open season. Great post, Jeff! Very insightful stuff. And yeah, Friedman's post is a great example of what hockey analysts SHOULD be doing - and that most of them don't. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Great post, Jeff! Very insightful stuff. And yeah, Friedman's post is a great example of what hockey analysts SHOULD be doing - and that most of them don't. Friedman has never been afraid of statistics, which has earned him belittling from guys like Stock and Healy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Impressive. A skating game more than ever. Guys like Kesler, Pommenville, Semin are having trouble. However talent and scoring touch still an asset. Caught a good portion of the Islander Kings game last night. Great game played at blinding speed. Lucic was best player on the ice, or one of. Scored the winner in 2-1 game. The big hunchback not exactly a great or fast skater. Jagr leads the Panthers in scoring. Has not been considered fast since Christ was a child. No doubt speed is an asset on any team. Habs of this season for sure.. But I am not so sure a talented player who does have have pure speed does not "fit into a team" built on speed. But i will admit Elliot makes a strong case for just that. A great report by the Broadcaster of the Year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 I see Subban and Beaulieu flip the puck a mile in the air all the time when things get a little Harry in their own end. The tactic of flipping the puck up is more advantageous than chipping off the glass. It puts Montreal on the forecheck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 I see Subban and Beaulieu flip the puck a mile in the air all the time when things get a little Harry in their own end. The tactic of flipping the puck up is more advantageous than chipping off the glass. It puts Montreal on the forecheck. I agree. I always liked the 'puck flip' - Subban is particularly gifted at it - and thought it was an under-used tactic by defencemen under pressure. I guess it's hard to execute without committing an icing, and that's why it's been infrequently deployed. But I'm glad we have guys that can actually do it effectively. Further to Jeff's post above: it may well be that the road to the Cup depends on the degree to which we can be successful against teams that rival our speed. As Jeff says, such teams (Tampa, for instance) ca neutralize the system Friedman describes. A major thing to keep an eye on as the season proceeds, therefore, will be the extent to which we do indeed adapt effectively against those clubs. If we can still reliably win in those conditions, then we are heavy-duty contenders for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXx..CK..xXx Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 I've actually been meaning to make a post of my own on an observation that the Habs are literally a solid team. Watched a highlight of Tarasenko's goal last night against Lundqvist and thought to myself that we never see snipes like that on the Habs (although we do, it was just a biased thought). What was more important, was that when I furthered the thought, it was obvious to me that our success really has been a team effort. Subban does not stand out as much as usual, Pacioretty has stood out for a few games I guess but in general he's blending in. Price isn't even around. Long story short, I just believe that as a unit, this is one of the strongest teams out there. You might see a few more highlight reel individual plays on other teams but those same teams are envious of our team play and structure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Price (no relation) Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Definitely. We are tied for first in the NHL for scoring, but don't have a single player in the top ten for points. Team effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 I agree. I always liked the 'puck flip' - Subban is particularly gifted at it - and thought it was an under-used tactic by defencemen under pressure. I guess it's hard to execute without committing an icing, and that's why it's been infrequently deployed. But I'm glad we have guys that can actually do it effectively. Further to Jeff's post above: it may well be that the road to the Cup depends on the degree to which we can be successful against teams that rival our speed. As Jeff says, such teams (Tampa, for instance) ca neutralize the system Friedman describes. A major thing to keep an eye on as the season proceeds, therefore, will be the extent to which we do indeed adapt effectively against those clubs. If we can still reliably win in those conditions, then we are heavy-duty contenders for sure. Rangers, Kings, Hawks, Lightning, all fast teams with size , talent , great goaltending and star dmen. Gonna be some great battles. There a game/date Price is expected back for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 But is that good to not have a top ten scorer? Wouldn't you ultimately want a couple top forwards in scoring race? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Price (no relation) Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 @Habs30/31: If there is, the Habs ain't tellin' us. It's an LBI, he'll be out a week... Oh, now a second opinion and another week... But is that good to not have a top ten scorer? Wouldn't you ultimately want a couple top forwards in scoring race?Depends. If the choice is one fifty goal scorer and a ten goal scorer, vs. Getting two 35 goal scorers at the same price, always go with the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Yes but Habs never have two 35g scorers on same team since...? Weise & Max on pace for 39g Gallagher & Plekanec on pace for 34g (Will they all continue to score at same rate? I would guess 2 at best will.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Scoring race has Kane and Seguin sitting on top. Two young "party animals" ripping it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Yes but Habs never have two 35g scorers on same team since...? Weise & Max on pace for 39g Gallagher & Plekanec on pace for 34g (Will they all continue to score at same rate? I would guess 2 at best will.) Montreal is going to add a big name at some point this year. Scoring race has Kane and Seguin sitting on top. Two young "party animals" ripping it up. Ya, funny how that works eh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Price (no relation) Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Yes but Habs never have two 35g scorers on same team since...? Weise & Max on pace for 39g Gallagher & Plekanec on pace for 34g (Will they all continue to score at same rate? I would guess 2 at best will.) It was an example. The point was it's better to distribute your scoring across the team than to concentrate it in one line that can be shut down. If you had a lineup of 20 guys scoring 15-20 goals each, you'd have nobody in the top 25, but you'd dominate the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 It was an example. The point was it's better to distribute your scoring across the team than to concentrate it in one line that can be shut down. If you had a lineup of 20 guys scoring 15-20 goals each, you'd have nobody in the top 25, but you'd dominate the league. Ideally its better to distribute your scoring across the team , AND still have a "go to line" that rarely gets shut down. With a top ten scorer on that line. As most cup winners have had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Max had 5/ Gallagher had 3, no other forward had more than 1g in last years playoffs. To go deeper in playoffs may need one more highly skilled forward (and not one named Semin). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Max had 5/ Gallagher had 3, no other forward had more than 1g in last years playoffs. To go deeper in playoffs may need one more highly skilled forward (and not one named Semin). How about Plekanic and DD? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted November 14, 2015 Author Share Posted November 14, 2015 How about Plekanic and DD? Secondary scoring options. The team needs another game breaker.... The fact is that every team in the final four had 2 game breakers or more in their forwards, they had gamebreakers on multiple lines..... Toews, Kane, Hossa, Saad, Sharp..... Getzlaf, Perry, Kesler..... Nash, Brassard, St. Louis, Stepan.... Stamkos, Johnson and the rest of the triplets... The Habs have one guy (Max) and the other teams are always gonna get their best defence on him. We need a second guy who can play on a different line and face the second pair of defence. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 I was kidding. Team needs to add that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Agree 100% with Commandant, need more than 1 big weapon up front to get cup...I think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Secondary scoring options. The team needs another game breaker.... The fact is that every team in the final four had 2 game breakers or more in their forwards, they had gamebreakers on multiple lines..... Toews, Kane, Hossa, Saad, Sharp..... Getzlaf, Perry, Kesler..... Nash, Brassard, St. Louis, Stepan.... Stamkos, Johnson and the rest of the triplets... The Habs have one guy (Max) and the other teams are always gonna get their best defence on him. We need a second guy who can play on a different line and face the second pair of defence. Gallagher is a game breaker. Galchenyuk had one bad playoff but in 13-14 he was huge returning for us. Stepan and Brassard as gamebreakers is pushing it. If those two are gamebreakers, Eller is a gamebreaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXx..CK..xXx Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Gallagher is a game breaker. Galchenyuk had one bad playoff but in 13-14 he was huge returning for us. Stepan and Brassard as gamebreakers is pushing it. If those two are gamebreakers, Eller is a gamebreaker. Stepan scored the OT winner against the Caps in game 7 last year. I agree that people don't give enough credit to the players we have though. Gallagher will make team Canada and has definitely gone from a 5th round draft pick who exceeded expectations because of his hussle and work ethic to a bonafide 1st liner. Subban is a game breaker defense or not. We have the captain of the Czech Republic as well as one of team USA's best players. I don't necessarily agree that Eller is a game breaker but even though he did score that game 7 winner, I'd argue that if Stepan, Brassard, Kessler (even St. Louis last year) and the triplets are game breakers in the playoffs, then Dale Weise is as well. Alright, I take that back. But he does know how to score some big goals. All that being said, I welcome more offensive power for the playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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