Glad To Get The Point, But...

[jackp]

That's not what a captain is supposed to do. Simply disgraceful. And before too many people bitch... he DID grab the guy's stick, in the OFFENSIVE ZONE. Took away our chance to win, gave a bad example, and ultimately was most responsible for our loss. (Begin wouldn't have been on the ice, if not for that dumb penalty. We would have been on a powerplay, if not for that dumb penalty.)

I can't help but think back to all the great captains we've had over the years...

Beliveau would never have done that...

H. Richard wouldn't have...

Savard wouldn't have...

Carbonneau would have been a positive, not a negative.

Just one of the things that's wrong with our team... lack of great leadership. As hard as this guy tries (great heart), as great a human being as he is (beating cancer, setting up his foundation, and other charitable works), he simply is not a great captain. Takes dumb penalties. Sometimes gives away the puck in bad situations. A true leader LEADS. He is the calmest in pressure situations. He never gets dumb penalties, especially not late in tied games. The rest of the team looks up to him because he demonstrates what everyone on the team should be. (I know he's too young NOW and a quiet guy to boot, but I hope Markov gets the chance some day. I personally think he would make a great captain.)

Anyway, I'm happy to get the point. And I'm happy with the way we played. This team is slowly turning things around. But one of the things we need is some good leadership. And THAT'S been obvious for quite awhile now...

- Jack

Edited February 8, 2006 by jackp

[Strummerman]

That's not what a captain is supposed to do. Simply disgraceful. And before too many people bitch... he DID grab the guy's stick, in the OFFENSIVE ZONE. Took away our chance to win, gave a bad example, and ultimately was most responsible for our loss. (Begin wouldn't have been on the ice, if not for that dumb penalty. We would have been on a powerplay, if not for that dumb penalty.)

I can't help but think back to all the great captains we've had over the years...

Beliveau would never have done that...

H. Richard wouldn't have...

Savard wouldn't have...

Carbonneau would have been a positive, not a negative.

Just one of the things that's wrong with our team... lack of great leadership. As hard as this guy tries (great heart), as great a human being as he is (beating cancer, setting up his foundation, and other charitable works), he simply is not a great captain. Takes dumb penalties. Sometimes gives away the puck in bad situations. A true leader LEADS. He is the calmest in pressure situations. He never gets dumb penalties, especially not late in tied games. The rest of the team looks up to him because he demonstrates what everyone on the team should be. (I know he's too young NOW and a quiet guy to boot, but I hope Markov gets the chance some day. I personally think he would make a great captain.)

Anyway, I'm happy to get the point. And I'm happy with the way we played. This team is slowly turning things around. But one of the things we need is some good leadership. And THAT'S been obvious for quite awhile now...

- Jack

Carbonneau would certainly have grabbed someone's stick, the problem is they used to get away with it.

I think we are now in February, the players have had 6 months to get used to new rules. Koivu grabbed the stick to gain an opportunity for the team. It is a difficult situation, players try hard but cant break old habits. I noticed Kovalev after he was penalized started to restrain his tendencies to hook etc. Anyways I think Ryder's goal should have counted it was directed by his hand but it hit his leg before it went in.

[brboo]

Are you on drugs?

Watch the net game really close and watch how many times a stick gets held. They only call it when they feel like it.

your telling me none of our guys sticks were held tonight. or we werent interfeared with?

The reffing was far to inconsistant

dont put this loss on koivu.

this game was won by the refs.

And untill your in the dressing room you have no right to say what kind of leader koivu is.

Just cause markov puts up points he would make a great captain?

He dives more than Alex Despatie

Edited February 8, 2006 by brboo

[olematelot]

That's not what a captain is supposed to do. Simply disgraceful. And before too many people bitch... he DID grab the guy's stick, in the OFFENSIVE ZONE. Took away our chance to win, gave a bad example, and ultimately was most responsible for our loss. (Begin wouldn't have been on the ice, if not for that dumb penalty. We would have been on a powerplay, if not for that dumb penalty.)

I can't help but think back to all the great captains we've had over the years...

Beliveau would never have done that...

H. Richard wouldn't have...

Savard wouldn't have...

Carbonneau would have been a positive, not a negative.

Just one of the things that's wrong with our team... lack of great leadership. As hard as this guy tries (great heart), as great a human being as he is (beating cancer, setting up his foundation, and other charitable works), he simply is not a great captain. Takes dumb penalties. Sometimes gives away the puck in bad situations. A true leader LEADS. He is the calmest in pressure situations. He never gets dumb penalties, especially not late in tied games. The rest of the team looks up to him because he demonstrates what everyone on the team should be. (I know he's too young NOW and a quiet guy to boot, but I hope Markov gets the chance some day. I personally think he would make a great captain.)

Anyway, I'm happy to get the point. And I'm happy with the way we played. This team is slowly turning things around. But one of the things we need is some good leadership. And THAT'S been obvious for quite awhile now...

- Jack

Disgraceful, give your head a shake. That was a very weak call. How do you know Koivu isn't a good leader, are you in the dressing room or on the bench. You have no idea what your talking about. :?-

[PB]

I sympathise with JACK and share his revulsion towards the penalty and the

overall significance of it,......its troubling,....yet if Gainey and Koivu nailed themselves

in a room with the door locked behind them and do what they have to do an order to

get every other notable members of this undiscipline squad to join them in a rehabilitation

process......it might not have been in vain.

Lets face it......turning the page to the last chapter of mediocrity this team

have been trought,....is the only agenda that matters and all energies most be devoted as

to do only that. Debating captainship at this stage is non-sens.

This team has now obtain 5 of their last 6 points obtainable.

The team is playing better with the new line-ups, Sundstrom is out, while Bonk and Zednick

have been giving less responsabilities.......its a good start and it work.

But there is still alot to do or to undo.

The next step is DISCIPLINE FOR ALL.

I have said before how I fell the roster had been shortsupplied by Gainey.....I also fell

that they have been miss-directed in part by Julien.

Take Bufallo,.....I read at the begining of the season that their coach has been calling penaltys

during the very first scrimages during the pre-saison in accordance with the DVD that the NHL

had provided them on the New Rules........from DAY ONE.....thats a whole month even before

the real thing would take place.

Here there was some complacency in playing the old ways.....resistance to comply....from

Julien.....most everyone.....and Koivu, of course.

Even the new kids are not embarassed to take penaltys.....take Plek, he might average

one per game since its return......its un-acceptable of course,... yet this state of affair has

been with the team from the start.

Julien has its faults but its NOW the time to Kik the habits once and for all,...Its hard to

believe how lenient they have been with themselves,.....there was excuses for the defence players

since everything was against them in the NewNHL.........but the forwards,...MY GOD !!!

I hope Gainey has a quik de-conditioning program in his pocket.

The solution is simple.

The team sit in a dark room and they watch tapes of Bouillon for twelves hours.

This player has earned but 18 minutes penaltys from the start,.....while playing every game....while

being a defenceman.......while being listed as top 12 in the whole league for number of

body check delivered by any players.........this guy is a model of intelligence, restrain and fury...

by comparaison our defencemen average around 50-60 minutes,....Bouillon is great !! and the

rest of the team should NOW emulate him as best as they can,....well at least the restrain part.

otherwise his team will

[KoZed]

It is somewhat unfair to compare Saku to Beliveau, Richard or Savard, or even Carbo. You're talking about Hall of Famers who were elite at their position for decades.

Saku is a courageous little skill player. Nothing more, nothing less. I dont know what the problem is with him this season, he just doesn't look like himself.

It really looks like Saku is trying to play himself out of town. Does he hold a hidden grudge against the organization for some reasons? Its though to guess, but something is definitely wrong with Saku.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Based on his career patterns - no sustained funk as long as this one, but tons of injuries - I still think that the odds are he's playing hurt.

[BTH]

Disgraceful, give your head a shake. That was a very weak call. How do you know Koivu isn't a good leader, are you in the dressing room or on the bench. You have no idea what your talking about. :?-

A very weak call? It was a perfect call. On the replay you see Koivu obviously grabbing the players stick for no reason. I don't care who you are - you don't do that. Saku let the team down. They were on the powerplay and in a position to win but he lost them the game. definitely the turning point. I woldn't have counted Ryder's goal.

[johnnyhasbeen]

Bad penalty for sure , but his leadership has been shown in the last few games, both on the bench, giving direction on the forecheck for example, and on the ice. Trust me, I questioned his leadership a week ago and he has really stepped it up.

Once again, this game was won by a ref. When I saw Koharski's name before the game I knew we were doomed. He is a a big fat idiot, anothe r of the over abundance of Ontario refs. How could Ryder's goal be disallowed. Yes he did make an attempt to knock the puck in, WITH HIS STICK, he missed, it hit him and went in, GOAL. Unreal call. Maybe with the Tocchet crap going on they will be forced to call things equally soon. (they wear stripes for a reason you know).

[jackp]

I would have called Ryder's shot no goal also. He made a clear motion with his arm and it went in. What was sad about that, is that it would have went in off his body had he not knocked it in. But, of course, in the heat of the action, he had no way of knowing that and he WAS trying to knock the puck down onto his stick.

If you want an example of really bad refereeing, look at last Sunday's superbowl. It was so atrocious, that 3 days after, Holmgrem's accepting the inevitable fine and is speaking up. The refereeing in that game has made neutral fans like me suspicious. Almost every Seattle key play was penalized and even a neutral observer like John Madden commented on the bogus penalties...

- Jack

[Komisarek the Cruncher]

Leader or not, Koivu needs to go. We need a new #1 center that as the skills to be a #1 center.

Koivu as a great heart and everything, but is skills are somewhat limited, which he compensates by playing hard...but the fact is that he doesn't have what it takes to be a great #1 center and to bring us a cup.

We have never done anything under is captaincy and its time to bring in fresh blood.

And don't give me that "he never had a good team to captain" crap!!!! Is Buffalo that much better...NO!!!! But there doing great. I'm not saying that he should have made us a elite team year after year, but it's not normal that we never even had one very good year under is captaincy.

As much as I like Koivu "the man", I'm fed up of Koivu "the captain".

TIME TO GO !!!

By the way, I think BG is on the same page...wonder why they haven't started negociating yet for a new contract...oh wait...it's because he wants to see who will be available this summer....maybe Jokinen. I would replace our Fin with that Fin in a flash.

[olematelot]

Bad penalty for sure , but his leadership has been shown in the last few games, both on the bench, giving direction on the forecheck for example, and on the ice. Trust me, I questioned his leadership a week ago and he has really stepped it up.

Once again, this game was won by a ref. When I saw Koharski's name before the game I knew we were doomed. He is a a big fat idiot, anothe r of the over abundance of Ontario refs. How could Ryder's goal be disallowed. Yes he did make an attempt to knock the puck in, WITH HIS STICK, he missed, it hit him and went in, GOAL. Unreal call. Maybe with the Tocchet crap going on they will be forced to call things equally soon. (they wear stripes for a reason you know).

NO GOAL, look at the replay, the goal was called off because Ryder made a forward pushing motion with his body, if he'd not made that motion it's a goal. Don't blame Koharski he made the right call. By the way Koharski isn't from Ontario, he's from Dartmouth NS.

Leader or not, Koivu needs to go. We need a new #1 center that as the skills to be a #1 center.

Koivu as a great heart and everything, but is skills are somewhat limited, which he compensates by playing hard...but the fact is that he doesn't have what it takes to be a great #1 center and to bring us a cup.

We have never done anything under is captaincy and its time to bring in fresh blood.

And don't give me that "he never had a good team to captain" crap!!!! Is Buffalo that much better...NO!!!! But there doing great. I'm not saying that he should have made us a elite team year after year, but it's not normal that we never even had one very good year under is captaincy.

As much as I like Koivu "the man", I'm fed up of Koivu "the captain".

TIME TO GO !!!

By the way, I think BG is on the same page...wonder why they haven't started negociating yet for a new contract...oh wait...it's because he wants to see who will be available this summer....maybe Jokinen. I would replace our Fin with that Fin in a flash.

:?-

A very weak call? It was a perfect call. On the replay you see Koivu obviously grabbing the players stick for no reason. I don't care who you are - you don't do that. Saku let the team down. They were on the powerplay and in a position to win but he lost them the game. definitely the turning point. I woldn't have counted Ryder's goal.

He didn't grab the stick, he pinned it under his wrist for a split second, WEAK CALL

[GoHabs2002]

Leader or not, Koivu needs to go. We need a new #1 center that as the skills to be a #1 center.

Koivu as a great heart and everything, but is skills are somewhat limited, which he compensates by playing hard...but the fact is that he doesn't have what it takes to be a great #1 center and to bring us a cup.

We have never done anything under is captaincy and its time to bring in fresh blood.

And don't give me that "he never had a good team to captain" crap!!!! Is Buffalo that much better...NO!!!! But there doing great. I'm not saying that he should have made us a elite team year after year, but it's not normal that we never even had one very good year under is captaincy.

As much as I like Koivu "the man", I'm fed up of Koivu "the captain".

TIME TO GO !!!

By the way, I think BG is on the same page...wonder why they haven't started negociating yet for a new contract...oh wait...it's because he wants to see who will be available this summer....maybe Jokinen. I would replace our Fin with that Fin in a flash.

I agree, we need a #1 center. But who will be out #2? Why can't Koivu be our #2. If we have a solid, big center in front of Koivu, that would not only add a dynamism to the team's attack, but it'll give Koivu more freedom on some of his shifts, away from the stronger checkers of other teams. The problem with Koivu is he's been played as a #1 center since '97, and really he's been a 2nd line center since at least 2000.

And they have started negotiations, RDS had a report on their site about it a month ago...haven't heard much of it since. BG respects Koivu and I think he understands that Koivu steps it up during big games and if this team was able to perform on a more consistent basis, then Koivu would be that much better.

[kaos]

Hey

Ultimatley, two dumb ass penalties cost us. Thats all there is to say. At the most critical point in the game, a guy decides to hold another guys stick and another decides not to control his own stick. Can't have that happen if you wanna beat one of the top three teams in the NHL.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

Is there anyone on this team that hasn't been bitched and complained about?

Koivu did hold the stick.

Koivu held the stick in the exact same fashion several times throughout the game. No call......Holding the stick for 1 second usually means nothing.

I agree that we need a big #1 center. Koivu is a perfect #2.

Leadership? We have no idea what goes on in the dressing room.

[kaos]

Bad penalty for sure , but his leadership has been shown in the last few games, both on the bench, giving direction on the forecheck for example, and on the ice. Trust me, I questioned his leadership a week ago and he has really stepped it up.

Once again, this game was won by a ref. When I saw Koharski's name before the game I knew we were doomed. He is a a big fat idiot, anothe r of the over abundance of Ontario refs. How could Ryder's goal be disallowed. Yes he did make an attempt to knock the puck in, WITH HIS STICK, he missed, it hit him and went in, GOAL. Unreal call. Maybe with the Tocchet crap going on they will be forced to call things equally soon. (they wear stripes for a reason you know).

How can you be so ignorant? Koharski is from out East loser...and if your from Halifax, you should know he's from Nova Scotia. Don't be blaming Ontario for donut eating fat ass.....

[Mont Royale]

Leader or not, Koivu needs to go. We need a new #1 center that as the skills to be a #1 center.

Koivu as a great heart and everything, but is skills are somewhat limited, which he compensates by playing hard...but the fact is that he doesn't have what it takes to be a great #1 center and to bring us a cup.

We have never done anything under is captaincy and its time to bring in fresh blood.

And don't give me that "he never had a good team to captain" crap!!!! Is Buffalo that much better...NO!!!! But there doing great. I'm not saying that he should have made us a elite team year after year, but it's not normal that we never even had one very good year under is captaincy.

As much as I like Koivu "the man", I'm fed up of Koivu "the captain".

TIME TO GO !!!

By the way, I think BG is on the same page...wonder why they haven't started negociating yet for a new contract...oh wait...it's because he wants to see who will be available this summer....maybe Jokinen. I would replace our Fin with that Fin in a flash.

It's my understanding that they HAVE started negotiating. These things take time, and there's no urgency to get it finished right now.

Yes, Koivu made a mistake last night. All players do that, captain or not. I would agree he's been taking too many penalties lately - that can be said about a lot of players.

You fail to make a good argument about Koivu's shortcomings. A successful team has many ingredients, which may or may not include a strong captain. To pin Montreal's struggles on Koivu is ridiculous. On-ice leadership alone does not make a winner. Last week it was the goaltending, this week it's the captain... :nono:

If you think Koivu doesn't have the skills to be a #1 centre, then we should get a #1 centre. Koivu could be among the best 2nd line centres in the league, if that happens. Why does he have to go? There's no rule stating that the #1 centre has to be captain! Carbonneau and Gainey were checking-line players (centre and LW respectively), and made great captains.

[RobRock]

I would have called Ryder's shot no goal also. He made a clear motion with his arm and it went in. What was sad about that, is that it would have went in off his body had he not knocked it in. But, of course, in the heat of the action, he had no way of knowing that and he WAS trying to knock the puck down onto his stick.

When I saw the initial replay on that goal, I also thought that he knocked the puck down with his hand, but the more replays they showed, the less obvious it was. He made a forward motion with his arm, no question about that, but I had trouble seeing where the puck actually hit him. Did it hit his arm, his chest, his stomach, his waist? There was no angle that clearly showed where the puck hit him. If Koharksi hadn't waived it off immediately, then the replay wouldn't have been enough to reverse that ruling either.

Having said all that, there was a definite slant to the penalties last night. There's no way Markov should have gotten an interference call for skating his check to the boards. He established body position by getting in front of him. He never used his stick to control him, he didn't grab him, he didn't knock his check off his skates. He neutralized him.

[simonus]

just saw the ryder goal for the first time.... Looks like a goal to me!

If we could put someone in the depth ahead of koivu, it would be fantastic... I don't know how easy it would be to do that though.

Maybe Arnott? Not that he is necisarily better than Koivu, but could split the other teams attention and is big. I could see an Arnott-Latendresse tandem being quite the thing at some point in the future.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

The question is, what do you do if Koivu wants to be PAID like a #1 centreman when really, he's a #1A? Do you cut him loose? Do you sign him at an inflated rate? We have to face the possibility that Bob may not be willing to give Koivu what he wants (whatever that might be).

What do you guys think Koivu should make? And what should be the length of his contract? I say, 2-3 years, absolutely no more than that; as for the number, I'm less sure, but it should be less than most other #1 centremen.

Don't get me wrong, I love the guy, but there's no room for sentimentality in a cap system...

[olematelot]

Absolutely, Koivu should be resigned. I agree that a 2-3 year deal is probably sensible, as far as what he should make goes, it should be what the Habs figure he's worth. What that is I have no idea, that's why they pay BG the big bucks.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

The question is, what do you do if Koivu wants to be PAID like a #1 centreman when really, he's a #1A? Do you cut him loose? Do you sign him at an inflated rate? We have to face the possibility that Bob may not be willing to give Koivu what he wants (whatever that might be).

What do you guys think Koivu should make? And what should be the length of his contract? I say, 2-3 years, absolutely no more than that; as for the number, I'm less sure, but it should be less than most other #1 centremen.

Don't get me wrong, I love the guy, but there's no room for sentimentality in a cap system...

He currently makes a little over 3 million a season. Top forwards in the league are making over 6 million a season.

I think 3 years for 9 million is fair.

I would like to see 5 years but it won't happen. I want Koivu to win a cup in Montreal.

[brboo]

Koivu wants to stay in montreal. I think he would sign here for slightly less then he could make on the open market. Deffinately worth 3-3.5 million per year.

[simonus]

i have no problem with koivu at ~$3 mil. No way can you give a guy with that much injury trouble a 5 yr deal... 2 - 3 yrs imo.

[BTH]

He currently makes a little over 3 million a season. Top forwards in the league are making over 6 million a season.

I think 3 years for 9 million is fair.

I would like to see 5 years but it won't happen. I want Koivu to win a cup in Montreal.

There are maybe 5 top forwards in the league who make over 6M. 3 years at 3M, 2.5M, 2M would be best. Or maybe a 2 year contract of 3M, 2.5M and then the year after resign him until the end of his career for a cheaper contract.