brobin Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 I would like to see what Let's undress could do on the Koivu line. I bet if someone could get him going its Koivu. Btw, Im quite sure that none of the other prospects would get many points playing on a 4th line either. Give him a shot with Koivu, he is the big powerforward we allways wanted for Koivu so give it a try Carbonneau. I am sure Koivu could get him going, but I am not sure that is the best thing to do. Ryder and Higgins deserve to be there, and I think Koivu's line is better with Ryder then Lats. Keep in mind that Lats has gotten both PP time and time on the 2nd line. Its not like he plays 5 minutes on the 4th line here. I also don't think he has to rack up points to be successful, necessarily. I want to see him better defensively and create more havoc in the other teams zone, buzzing and crushing, and bottling up. If he could do that more, he would justify being on the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 Yes, Lats is somewhat different because he cannot go to the AHL. Still, he is getting a ton of ice time with very little to show for it, ahead of other players in the system. I personally believe this is because he is from Quebec and they just shipped ribs and Theo away. Have to appease the home town fans. As for his hitting, we can get that from downey and murray. We need Lats to do more that just hit people. We need him to show he belongs in the NHL. I can't think of any other team that has a guy that young playing up who is not ripping it up. Staal for example earned his right to stay in the NHL. Bergeron did when we was with the Bruins too. Lats? I don't see it. I sure hope he comes around before his development (and confidence) is shattered by this. I would rather he be up in a year or two when he is truely ready to play at this level. I don't agree that Lats is getting "tons of icetime." He's been asked to play a pretty minimal role so far. About 10-11 minutes a game, I believe, but I'm not sure. @original post: fiery, not firery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easy Ryder Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 One thing that need to be considered too is that stats don't mean everything. +/- PP and PK are not considered. Some players are more valuable to the team while on special teams see Rivet on PK and Souray on PP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 1- Plekanec Case: Playing center is harder than playing on the wing Centers always have more responsabilities than wingers. Centers have to take charge of the line, call the shots, take faceoffs, be the first one to help out defensemen, etc. So the center position is harder than the winger position. Its a little detail often overlooked when people start raging on Plekanec. Just remember how Higgins exploded last season when moved from C to LW especially for younger players; or how playing C put a damp on Begin's firery style at the start of the season, as exemples of how the center position is difficult. This may be true, but he's certainly doing just fine centering the 4th line. I'm willing to bet his troubles at center were from trying to play above himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bombTHEice Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 It also seemed like Pleky knew that it maybe wasn't the right spot for him: “Getting the chance to play on one of the top two lines is obviously a great feeling,” admitted the 23-year-old Plekanec. “But I know I’m not the No. 2 center. I’m sure the team will try different combinations, like on the power-play. I just hope that I get to play on this line as long as possible.” Full article Maybe it's better for him to play in a more defencive role like he's doing now, maybe he's more comfortable with playing on the 3rd or 4th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 It also seemed like Pleky knew that it maybe wasn't the right spot for him: Full article Maybe it's better for him to play in a more defencive role like he's doing now, maybe he's more comfortable with playing on the 3rd or 4th. LOL, when I stated that after the Riberio trade, I took a lot of flack on this board for questioning Pleks as a 2nd line center. Turns out, Pleks agrees with me. I still think the kid has a ton of talent and if he focuses on his strengths, can be one of the best two way, 3rd line centers in the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaos Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 (edited) That's insulting toward Gainey and the coaching staff, as well as Latendresse. If Chipchura had earned a place would it be because they tried to make a "Western Hero"? Latendresse earned his place and the hockey staff try to put together the best team they can. Hockey is too much of a cut-throat business to start playing that kind of game. Carbo warned everyone that patience would be necessary with Latendresse. They expected people would whine that the kid shouldn't be in the NHL. But saying he's only there because he's from Quebec, that's very low. Brobin I fully agree that Latendresse made the team and was marketed by the Montreal Canadiens as the Quebec savior. The way he was hyped he was suppose to come and bash people and score goals in bunches and challenge for the Calder. Well he hasn't done any of that. There is no way he should have made the big club, and its unfortunate that he couldn't be sent to the AHL, but Jr probably would have been better for him than the NHL. Maxim Lapierre should have made this club before Latendresse. You could make a case for Kyle CHipchura and Andrei Kostitsyn as well. But the Montreal Canadiens made a decision to try and promote this new Quebec hero, and while it has not failed, it has not succeeded either. To say that he's only on the team because he's from Quebec is not low its honest. They could jsut as easily have returned Latendresse to Jr and went with Lapierre but he's not as high profile, yet he is the more complete hockey player right now. And thats what would have helped Montreal win, not some kid who happend to have one really good training camp and one decent training camp. Edited November 6, 2006 by kaos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huzer Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 This may be true, but he's certainly doing just fine centering the 4th line. I'm willing to bet his troubles at center were from trying to play above himself. I think the Habs needed to do as much to resolve the issues with the 4th line, as they did with the 2nd line. Begin is much more comfortable on the wing, rather than C. I think that has been the most significant impact for that line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanny Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 I would like to see what Let's undress could do on the Koivu line. I bet if someone could get him going its Koivu. Btw, Im quite sure that none of the other prospects would get many points playing on a 4th line either. Give him a shot with Koivu, he is the big powerforward we allways wanted for Koivu so give it a try Carbonneau. Well, it looks like you'll get your wish. Higgs is injured (ankle I think, from the White hit on Saturday), and Lats was on the first line in his place for practice today. Higgins won't be playing tomorrow against Edmonton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CerebusClone Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 I agree with KoZed that Latendresse earned his spot in the lineup, even though I also believe that the best thing for the organization was to send him to the juniors while at least one (if not both) of Maxim Lapierre and Andrei Kostsitsyn should be playing in the NHL. However, where I agree that he deserved and earned a spot after training camp, I don't believe he did anything to deserve staying with the Montreal Canadiens during his first 8-9 games, and that at that point he should have been sent back. He's been nowhere close to being the same type of player he was during training camp, and he has been completely useless to us so far. Not only is he clearly not ready to have any kind of impact in the immediate future, but we have a guy like Maxim Lapierre who would probably be superior to him on all aspects of the game waiting in Hamilton. Could Latendresse improve during the season, and be of some use to us by the end of the season? Of course, and let's hope so because he's staying. However, I do believe other players deserve to be there more than he does at this point, and that they would have a more significant impact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beliveau1 Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 (edited) Yes, Lats is somewhat different because he cannot go to the AHL. Still, he is getting a ton of ice time with very little to show for it, ahead of other players in the system. I personally believe this is because he is from Quebec and they just shipped ribs and Theo away. Have to appease the home town fans. As for his hitting, we can get that from downey and murray. We need Lats to do more that just hit people. We need him to show he belongs in the NHL. I can't think of any other team that has a guy that young playing up who is not ripping it up. Staal for example earned his right to stay in the NHL. Bergeron did when we was with the Bruins too. Lats? I don't see it. I sure hope he comes around before his development (and confidence) is shattered by this. I would rather he be up in a year or two when he is truely ready to play at this level. For those of us old enough to have seen Lafleur breaking into the NHL, you will probably remember the skeptics who were beginning to question just how good he really was and if he'd ever live up to his potential. Late in his third year with his numbers having slipped significantly each season, people were beginning to say he was an over-rated flop; that he was just another Junior who would never live up to the hype that had preceded him? 1971-72 73 games 29 goals 35 assists 64 points 1972-73 70 games 28 goals 27 assists 55 points 1973-74 73 games 21 goals 35 assists 56 points 1974-75 70 games 53 goals 66 assists 119 points People were beginning to think that his 233 goals, 146 assists and 379 pts in 118 games during his two years of Junior were actually not a true indicator of his talent level? Late in the 73-74 season in a game verses I believe Chicago, he scored a remarkable goal that seemed to spark his eventual rise to superstar in the NHL. It was one that had many in the know commenting on the play, and many were saying that he had finally announced his arrival once and for all? The numbers he would then post in 1974-75 were the proof of that brief instance in one game that had prompted several experts to announce his arrival at last..... Now I'm not even daring to compare Latendresse to Lafleur, as he is just not in the same talent zone at all. However his development is in some ways similar in the fact that the skeptics are there wondering what he will become eventually - although less than a quarter of the way into his first season isn't the same time frame. In other words like Lafleur they are asking, is he the real deal, or just the by product of far too much hype? Only time will really tell us that for sure? Personally I'm of the opinion another year in Junior would have benefited him far more than most want to believe, but management has rolled the dice on his development. And like the leadership the current management team grew up under, they are showing extreme patience in carefully preparing him for his NHL career. In their eyes this is nothing new, and it has paid dividends in the past. Unlike today, many a solid player apprenticed in the AHL before starring with the Habs. In fact several of them would have struggled in the NHL if tossed into the ring of fire just out of Junior. Some may have flamed and burned out under such circumstances just as many did with other teams who for a variety of reasons had rushed them into service! Looking at Latendresse I still see a young boy who is caught in a man's body with a ton of potential. With a cultural driven audience starved for a Francophone hero the pressure is tremendous, not to mention that it is unreasonable and absolutely unfair at this point in his career. Management sees this and is managing his ice time and his shift appearances accordingly. At an average of about 9:35 of ice time per game it is really hard to expect his production to be any higher, when given the slower baptism of fire that management has chosen to proceed with in Latendresse's case. Others being named here are getting significantly more ice time for a variety of reasons that do not compare to this situation. In each case they are talented young players who have had the good fortune to be drafted by an organization that does not even begin to replicate the pressure associated with playing in Montreal, no matter what your heritage is. What compounds Latendresse's situation even further is the fact that he is being projected to be the next Francophone to hold the torch for a starving Francophone population. Management sees the dangers that are inherent with this situation and is doing their utmost to deflect the pressure off his young shoulders as they gradually edge him into his future role with this team. While it may be tough waiting to see what will eventually transpire, the fact is this is the right way to bring this kid along given the fact that management has now committed to having him here the whole season. Much of his tutoring will take place in the confines of practises where he be taught the finer points of the game, and from time to time he can be teamed with the big boys when occasion arises to do so in order to give him a taste of their pace and intensity. Measuring his stats is therefore not a true indicator of his NHL readiness at this point in his young career as it is not a fair assessment. What really matters is if his play itself is getting better, even if only a little bit at a time. Are his shifts better spent; are his mistakes being reduced; is he still making the same ones over and over; is he picking his spots better; is he making smarter plays with & without the puck? Those are all indicators one needs to use when assessing a player being developed slowly at any level of the game. It is not about goals scored, big hits delivered or points produced in huge numbers - after all no one with any real hockey sense can reasonably compare this guy to a Malkin or a Staal. He is at best destined to be a hard-nosed power forward, not a big offensive numbers player. Given the situation Latendresse has been placed in and the expectations accorded him, one has to understand the implications that come with rushing his progress. Expecting too much too soon could have horrendous results. Anyone who doubts the wisdom of this process obviously does not recall the horrible fate that befell Doug Wickenheiser in Montreal? As it currently is playing out, Latendresse is probably right on schedule as far as habs's management is concerned. The fans may want more faster but they need to have some patience, and they especially need to understand just what Gainey & company are doing - things are playing out according to plan..... barring the unforeseen, his time will come! Edited November 6, 2006 by beliveau1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dark_faerie87 Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 Bravo beliveau1! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beliveau1 Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 Bravo beliveau1! Not to take a bow for this, but the way fans are reacting to not only Latendresse, but a host of other players has me just fed up with it. PATIENCE, PATIENCE, PATIENCE...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athlétique.Canadien Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Not to take a bow for this, but the way fans are reacting to not only Latendresse, but a host of other players has me just fed up with it. PATIENCE, PATIENCE, PATIENCE...... Beautiful post beliveau1. When I saw him play his first game I figured he would "show up" around the 15th game. I don't know why everybody is on him. He's played well. Geeez, it'll come. And, he isn't "slow". He appears "slow" because he's tired from staying out too long. Fresh off the bench his speed is satifactory as far as I'm concerned. The only issue right now is the double shifts. No worries. 15 games Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 You are comparing Lats to Lafleur? wow.... You do realize we could post lots of stories about guys who flame out under the pressure and how many think they were brought up too soon, right? No one is saying that Lats has no future with the Habs, but he is hardly a Lafleur type prospect so the comparison is rather silly, imo. You are right, time will tell. I think the point is that there are several other prospects who are not getting the benefit of the doubt. So what makes Lat's so special? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beliveau1 Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 (edited) You are comparing Lats to Lafleur? wow.... You do realize we could post lots of stories about guys who flame out under the pressure and how many think they were brought up too soon, right? No one is saying that Lats has no future with the Habs, but he is hardly a Lafleur type prospect so the comparison is rather silly, imo. You are right, time will tell. I think the point is that there are several other prospects who are not getting the benefit of the doubt. So what makes Lat's so special? Maybe you should have read the line that said I'm not comparing their talent - they're not even in the same league!!!! It's called drawing an analogy from a similar situation...... X2 I simply pointed out that people were asking the same questions of someone else they considered the next great French hope. It is exactly the same boat Latendresse finds himself in regardless of his talent. Neither one were there by their own choice I never said he was special - in fact I made it clear that I feel he would be better served with another year in Junior instead of playing nine and a half minutes a game in the NHL. My point was to consider how to judge his progress - something most people seem to be missing in this situation. Edited November 7, 2006 by beliveau1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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