Any Chance Martin Gives Halak a Real Shot?

[BTH]

Price outshone Halak at camp, made the team, took the starting job at 20 years old, and was one of the better starting goalies in the league for a year. That's not earning the job? From that point on, of course, we're going to favor our starter over our back-up. Who wouldn't?

When your starter's slumping and your back-up's outplaying him, you let the back-up play. But obviously, you're going to try as hard as you can to get your original guy back in the crease. This is as true for Montreal with Price and Halak as it is for every other team in the league.

For one thing, the starter at his best is better than the back-up at his best.

Then, the starter is more proven as a starting goalie - meaning, that our back-up seems unlikely to be able to handle more than 40 games in a season.

And then, in our case, Price also has the advantage of having a lot more potential. Some people are jumping on this argument, as if it weren't one of three, and calling it irrelevant, while forgetting that the above two things are also true. This is just a bonus to make it even more obvious that Price is the one we want to have in our net.

Halak, as the second most talented, most experienced, most reliable, most potential-filled, and most valuable goalie on the team, is put in a position to fail. That's life. Aspiring starting goaltenders can be patient opportunists, or they can remain back-ups.

[Fanpuck33]

Price outshone Halak at camp, made the team, took the starting job at 20 years old, and was one of the better starting goalies in the league for a year. That's not earning the job? From that point on, of course, we're going to favor our starter over our back-up. Who wouldn't?

Yes, but Price's play after the injury has to affect his status as "the guy." Halak earned more starts than he got in the second half, but instead, Price kept getting starts he didn't deserve. Part of being "the guy" is keeping the job. Price did not appear to me to do enough to keep his job over Halak last season. They should have been getting equal starts, forcing Price to re-earn the job.

Aspiring starting goaltenders can be patient opportunists, or they can remain back-ups.

Halak has been patient, and hasn't gotten the opportunity he deserved. From what the two goalies showed last year, Price should be 1a and Halak should be 1b. Price has shown flashes of being a stud, but make him re-earn the top job. Make him prove that he should be #1 and that Halak should only be #2. (Such a system would also allow Halak to possibly steal the job, which seems like an impossibility, given Price's treatment.)

[redondo]

Price outshone Halak at camp, made the team, took the starting job at 20 years old, and was one of the better starting goalies in the league for a year. That's not earning the job? From that point on, of course, we're going to favor our starter over our back-up. Who wouldn't?

So if you are Martin, how long do you give someone carte blanche based on a good camp at 20? And btw, I personally think it's less about the camp and more about how we all got excited after Price's wonderful Memorial Cup run and the start to the subsequent season and had images of Roy and Dryden. I'll admit it, I did too, and it was worth a shot. I still think he'll turn into a great goalie, and it's not the end of the world if it takes a couple of years for him to grow into that. But it will suck if we are dragging down the results and accomplishments of the whole team for sake of Price's development.

When your starter's slumping and your back-up's outplaying him, you let the back-up play. But obviously, you're going to try as hard as you can to get your original guy back in the crease. This is as true for Montreal with Price and Halak as it is for every other team in the league.

For one thing, the starter at his best is better than the back-up at his best.

Then, the starter is more proven as a starting goalie - meaning, that our back-up seems unlikely to be able to handle more than 40 games in a season.

And then, in our case, Price also has the advantage of having a lot more potential. Some people are jumping on this argument, as if it weren't one of three, and calling it irrelevant, while forgetting that the above two things are also true. This is just a bonus to make it even more obvious that Price is the one we want to have in our net.

I somewhat disagree with this point too. Why is it self-evident that Price has a lot more potential? I'm not arguing that he doesn't, just that you're taking an assumption as an irrefutable argument. Why even bother picking players after the 2nd round, according to your argument they'll never amount to anything anyway.

Halak, as the second most talented, most experienced, most reliable, most potential-filled, and most valuable goalie on the team, is put in a position to fail. That's life. Aspiring starting goaltenders can be patient opportunists, or they can remain back-ups.

Another empty argument. You're not talking about Brodeur and Clemmensen with long-determined assets and celings here, this is two young goalies, both unproven as of yet. Halak has been patient, and has been doing everything that's been asked of him. It's not the end of the world if your supertalented projected superstar gets a little rest because he's struggling, or the other guy is playing better at the time. I can't find you a better example than what people already mentioned, Marc-Andre Fleury. He was annointed, he wasn't ready, they gave him a break to improve his confidence/game, in the end when he came back he was ready and all worked out wonderfully. I know the waiver issue, but as a general approach, THAT is what i want for Price.

The best player plays, however all things being equal you obviously play your starter over your backup. We don't need to get into what is and isn't life, but if you try and imagine that situation in your job, where another guy is constantly getting better opportunities and benefit of the doubt over you even though you are doing better AT THE TIME i don't think you'd be readily accepting it as "well that's life". I know NHL is obviously more talent driven then a regular job, but you still have to reward hard work and results over talent and potential.

[habs rule]

all i can say is : isn't it great to have to decide between 2 really good goalies, and not be looking for 1.

We are fortunate, so lets let the season play out. Certainly giving up on Price now would be stupid, and we must give Halak enough starts to keep him happy. I think this can all work out, maybe price shouldn't play 50 -60 games maybe he only get 45 and halak the rest.

[BTH]

So if you are Martin, how long do you give someone carte blanche based on a good camp at 20? And btw, I personally think it's less about the camp and more about how we all got excited after Price's wonderful Memorial Cup run and the start to the subsequent season and had images of Roy and Dryden. I'll admit it, I did too, and it was worth a shot. I still think he'll turn into a great goalie, and it's not the end of the world if it takes a couple of years for him to grow into that. But it will suck if we are dragging down the results and accomplishments of the whole team for sake of Price's development.

He made the team based on the camp. He stayed on the team because he had an awesome season. He isn't still living off of that success. He's been our best goalie ever since then.

Will we be dragging down the team any less for the sake of Halak's development? This isn't Price and Huet, it's Price and an even less experienced goalie. Tell me with a straight face that Halak wouldn't be touted around the league as the worst starter in the NHL.

I somewhat disagree with this point too. Why is it self-evident that Price has a lot more potential? I'm not arguing that he doesn't, just that you're taking an assumption as an irrefutable argument. Why even bother picking players after the 2nd round, according to your argument they'll never amount to anything anyway.

Better player at a younger age, more natural talent, bigger. Among scouts/experts it would be a unanimous decision. This is years after their draft years.

Another empty argument. You're not talking about Brodeur and Clemmensen with long-determined assets and celings here, this is two young goalies, both unproven as of yet. Halak has been patient, and has been doing everything that's been asked of him. It's not the end of the world if your supertalented projected superstar gets a little rest because he's struggling, or the other guy is playing better at the time. I can't find you a better example than what people already mentioned, Marc-Andre Fleury. He was annointed, he wasn't ready, they gave him a break to improve his confidence/game, in the end when he came back he was ready and all worked out wonderfully. I know the waiver issue, but as a general approach, THAT is what i want for Price.

The best player plays, however all things being equal you obviously play your starter over your backup. We don't need to get into what is and isn't life, but if you try and imagine that situation in your job, where another guy is constantly getting better opportunities and benefit of the doubt over you even though you are doing better AT THE TIME i don't think you'd be readily accepting it as "well that's life". I know NHL is obviously more talent driven then a regular job, but you still have to reward hard work and results over talent and potential.

-I've already said that we ought to sit Price if Halak is outplaying him - just that our goal needs to be to get Price back into the net.

-Throwing both goalies under the title "unproven" is being overly simple. Halak has only barely proven himself as an NHL #2 as much as Price has as an NHL #1. Price is unproven as a 65+ start NHL goalie. Halak is unproven as a 40+ start NHL goalie.

-Why is that guy getting all the better opportunities in the first place? Probably because he's been around before you and has been consistently better than you. If you happen to be cooking better meals than him (or whatever the job is) for a couple of weeks, you don't immediately deserve his salary or his breaks.

[BTH]

From what the two goalies showed last year, Price should be 1a and Halak should be 1b. Price has shown flashes of being a stud, but make him re-earn the top job. Make him prove that he should be #1 and that Halak should only be #2. (Such a system would also allow Halak to possibly steal the job, which seems like an impossibility, given Price's treatment.)

Halak had 34 starts last season. How many does he need to be a 1b? A lot of them while Price was injured, but that doesn't change much, as I don't think Halak could have handled much more than the 34 he got.

[Fanpuck33]

Halak had 34 starts last season. How many does he need to be a 1b? A lot of them while Price was injured, but that doesn't change much, as I don't think Halak could have handled much more than the 34 he got.

Yeah, but down the stretch, it was Price more often than not.

[redondo]

He made the team based on the camp. He stayed on the team because he had an awesome season. He isn't still living off of that success. He's been our best goalie ever since then.

Will we be dragging down the team any less for the sake of Halak's development? This isn't Price and Huet, it's Price and an even less experienced goalie. Tell me with a straight face that Halak wouldn't be touted around the league as the worst starter in the NHL.

Better player at a younger age, more natural talent, bigger. Among scouts/experts it would be a unanimous decision. This is years after their draft years.

-I've already said that we ought to sit Price if Halak is outplaying him - just that our goal needs to be to get Price back into the net.

-Throwing both goalies under the title "unproven" is being overly simple. Halak has only barely proven himself as an NHL #2 as much as Price has as an NHL #1. Price is unproven as a 65+ start NHL goalie. Halak is unproven as a 40+ start NHL goalie.

-Why is that guy getting all the better opportunities in the first place? Probably because he's been around before you and has been consistently better than you. If you happen to be cooking better meals than him (or whatever the job is) for a couple of weeks, you don't immediately deserve his salary or his breaks.

Except that Halak is the one who's been around for longer, and he's certainly paid his dues. First in the AHL, then in the NHL, where he was pushing Huet before Carey had played an NHL game. At the very least even you have to admit he performed the backup duty that season very capably. The disparity in the NHL starts (which is not much of a sample size at this point in their careers) can also be chalked up to the preferential treatment of one vs. other, so that argument can work both ways.

As far as "worst starter in the league", reputations and expectations are one thing and results another. Look at how we did last year for the most recent example. And I think it's clear if you re-read my original post, I am not lobbying for Halak at any cost. I am in favour of best goalie playing, and the shared workload scenario at this point makes more sense to me then automatically anointing Price, based on career stats, what I've seen the past season and in the playoffs. It pushes both goalies to excel, and earn their starts. I also think it sends a message that fits well with the new mantra of this team. And it will help Price in the long run.

[alexstream]

FOR THE RECORD, PEOPLE BASHING THE PRICE RE: LOSING IT IN PHILLY.

Just before that Series vs Philly, we were playing a Bruins team which was on fire. A bruins team which went on that hot streak to end up winning the conference the next season (i.e. last season).

That series was won in 7 Games by the Habs.

What Carey's critics remember is how we lost to Biron, how we couldn't score vs Biron and they attribute it to Carey's fault... However, Habs scored 3 x 2 goals (how can you expect to win), and 1 x 4 (1w, 1L) goals in that serie.

However, Without that poor guy, we might not have made it to that famous 2nd round.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/recap.htm?id=2007030117

Price played an inspired, impeccable 7th game. Named 1st star and played stellar.

I admit when he's playing badly, like last season's 2nd half... however, I really think you're of badfaith by only focusing on the series vs the Flyers were EVERYONE on the team was extinguished, we had good chances, but we wouldn't score.

You guys are unfair and are denying the "good" that lead there previously. He was so awesome in the 1st round.

[Nilan25]

FOR THE RECORD, PEOPLE BASHING THE PRICE RE: LOSING IT IN PHILLY.

Just before that Series vs Philly, we were playing a Bruins team which was on fire. A bruins team which went on that hot streak to end up winning the conference the next season (i.e. last season).

That series was won in 7 Games by the Habs.

What Carey's critics remember is how we lost to Biron, how we couldn't score vs Biron and they attribute it to Carey's fault... However, Habs scored 3 x 2 goals (how can you expect to win), and 1 x 4 (1w, 1L) goals in that serie.

However, Without that poor guy, we might not have made it to that famous 2nd round.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/recap.htm?id=2007030117

Price played an inspired, impeccable 7th game. Named 1st star and played stellar.

I admit when he's playing badly, like last season's 2nd half... however, I really think you're of badfaith by only focusing on the series vs the Flyers were EVERYONE on the team was extinguished, we had good chances, but we wouldn't score.

You guys are unfair and are denying the "good" that lead there previously. He was so awesome in the 1st round.

[Nilan25]

I dont know about you guys but I have not been thrilled with the reports on Price in preseason. I am in the camp of " what have you done for me lately". Halak has been outplaying him the whole pre-season. Thus he deserves to start. Simple mo?

[jackp]

I dont know about you guys but I have not been thrilled with the reports on Price in preseason. I am in the camp of " what have you done for me lately". Halak has been outplaying him the whole pre-season. Thus he deserves to start. Simple mo?

Apparently, according to Hickey in the Gazette, Price played well last night after giving up 2 soft goals. 2 goals in 31 shots is good. If he can continue to play at this level, I'd have no problem about his being our starter over Halak, even if Halak has identical numbers. But, as you all know, that's a mighty big "if."

[BCHabnut]

I think Halak will get more starts if Price plays poorly. I don't think Price was as bad as a lot of us say though. In round 2 vs Flyers, Biron won, Price didn't lose. We couldn't score on him. Price wasn't unbelievable, and let in a few softies, but Biron's stellar tending was the difference, not Price's weaker one. Last season, he came back from his injury too early. Plain and simple. I think it was a mistake to not send him to Hamilton for conditioning. As for the second half, you saw the whole team crumble, so that is not really a fair assessment. Having said all this, to hell with official starter status. Play the better goalie at the time. If Halak is playing well and Price is not, you play Halak. That's it. I have seen times when this should have happened, and who knows, maybe it will pay off.

[rafikz]

Really? Do I really need to list all his accomplishments up until this point? Cuz I really don't feel like typing it all out.

The past? really?

We are talking about now, and right now, Halak is better

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I think Halak will get more starts if Price plays poorly. I don't think Price was as bad as a lot of us say though. In round 2 vs Flyers, Biron won, Price didn't lose. We couldn't score on him. Price wasn't unbelievable, and let in a few softies, but Biron's stellar tending was the difference, not Price's weaker one. Last season, he came back from his injury too early. Plain and simple. I think it was a mistake to not send him to Hamilton for conditioning. As for the second half, you saw the whole team crumble, so that is not really a fair assessment. Having said all this, to hell with official starter status. Play the better goalie at the time. If Halak is playing well and Price is not, you play Halak. That's it. I have seen times when this should have happened, and who knows, maybe it will pay off.

Agreed, although I think you're too kind on Price's performance against Philly. Other than that, spot on. As for training camp, I don't think Price should be positioned as having to "prove" himself. He's getting warmed up and shouldn't be relegated to #2 on that basis. People keep forgetting - preseason means absolutely diddly squat. Only if Price looks unconvincing when the regular season starts do I start looking to give Halak #1 G minutes.

[ForumGhost]

The past? really?

We are talking about now, and right now, Halak is better

He is?

[JoeLassister]

I dont know about you guys but I have not been thrilled with the reports on Price in preseason. I am in the camp of " what have you done for me lately". Halak has been outplaying him the whole pre-season. Thus he deserves to start. Simple mo?

I call bullshit here.

The past? really?

We are talking about now, and right now, Halak is better

I call it twice.

[Colin]

Ah, Montreal fans.

Price has played how many games? Halak how many? And yet there are pronouncements on their careers going on here. If you draft a guy as number one, don't you want to keep putting him in that situation and give him the chance to get there? I realize that, at some point, you have to pull a struggling guy for the other guy, but I also firmly believe you have to give a highly touted guy every shot possible. Or you risk losing him for little and then watching him grow up to beat the crap out of you regularly.

And for those of you comparing Roy to Price, there is only one thing in Roy's corner at this comparable juncture of their careers: Roy won more big games. For those that actually watched Patrick Roy, if the bleu, blanc, rouge glasses are removed, they might remember Patty being a guy who *regularly* let in at least one bad goal a game: in fact, it was repeatedly covered in the media and complained about regularly by fans. Times are different now, though. The ave. goals per game is WAY down compared to the heyday of NHL scoring.

Personally, I think Price is the better overall goalie right now, except for the fact that he's let in a couple of goals that Patty wouldn't have done late in games. Not everyone in Patrick Roy. In fact, pretty much no one is Roy. Comparing Price to Roy is unfair in the extreme. How about just looking at Price's game as it is. By and large he's a strong goalie who, AT 60 GAMES, seems to be a kid who may very well be a star in the league.

At 60 games, however, it's a little early to be pronouncing him an epic fail.

As for the flip side of the argument in Halak, of course management will go with the 1st rounder before the whatever-rounder he was. There's a reason they go with Price, though, and that's the same reason they picked him early: they believe Price will be the better goalie in the long run. Maybe not at this very instant in time. Maybe not tomorrow. But over the long run. And Price will NEVER EVER get there if he doesn't play. Lots.

Price has to be the guy unless he really does become an Epic Fail. And proclaiming him as that now is knee-jerk presumptuous.

[ForumGhost]

Couldn't have said it better myself. Why do people wanna give up on young prospects so early? (Price, SG, AK, D'Agostini...)

[Fanpuck33]

At 60 games, however, it's a little early to be pronouncing him an epic fail.

Ok, there might be one or two people in the thread that think that, but must of us who are calling for an even goaltending competition are not calling Price a bust.

Price has to be the guy unless he really does become an Epic Fail. And proclaiming him as that now is knee-jerk presumptuous.

See, I just find this idea ridiculous. It places the value of a single player over the importance of the team itself. Price should have lost his #1 title last season and should have to earn it back this season. He and Halak should split the starts early in the season until one of them establishes himself as the #1. Giving Price more of a chance than Halak simply because of his draft status and supposed potential is ridiculous. You can't run a team on potential, you have have to play to win. You can't let the Alex Svitovs of the world beat out guys like Marty St. Louis because of draft status. (No, I'm not trying to say Price is a bust like Svitov or that Halak will be a star like St. Louis, I'm just using an extreme example of how potential shouldn't be used to make big decisions.)

Price, at his best, I do think is the better goalie. I also think he is inconsistent and not mentally tough. Going back to the Philly series that people brought up, I do think a lot of that series can be blamed on him. How many times did Philly score on the exact same shot? Philly was clearly in his head, and it affected the entire team. All the fault can't be placed on him, but I think it would have been a much different series if he doesn't let Philly (Umberger, especially) get to him. Halak's highs aren't as high as Price, nor are his lows quite as low. I think he has a lot of potential that people ignore because he's a late round pick, so they write him off. I do think Price can/will be the better goalie long term, but I want to see him earn his job back. At best, he wins the job back and goes on to greatness. At worst, Halak wins the job and lets Price progress at his own pace as a backup, rather than holding the team back while he takes longer than expected to develop.

[JoeLassister]

My concern with this goalie situation is : How did you guys came to the conclusion that Halak outplayed Price last season and that Halak deserves all this praise ?

At one point of the season, I clearly remember posting here something like " I must admit that I'm not confident anymore when Halak is in the nets because of the WEAK goals he allows". I also clearly remember SEVERAL other members saying the same or so.

Anyway, I'm definitely on the side of those who want to see Price starting 52 games and Halak 30. I think this is the best way to develop Price into a top league goalie and to make this franchise a true contender.

[rafikz]

Couldn't have said it better myself. Why do people wanna give up on young prospects so early? (Price, SG, AK, D'Agostini...)

Personally, I'm not giving up on any of them; they are part of the future of the Canadiens. They just need to mature.

And I have nothing against Pricey, don't get me wrong. I think he will be a great goalie

My concern with this goalie situation is : How did you guys came to the conclusion that Halak outplayed Price last season and that Halak deserves all this praise ?

At one point of the season, I clearly remember posting here something like " I must admit that I'm not confident anymore when Halak is in the nets because of the WEAK goals he allows". I also clearly remember SEVERAL other members saying the same or so.

Anyway, I'm definitely on the side of those who want to see Price starting 52 games and Halak 30. I think this is the best way to develop Price into a top league goalie and to make this franchise a true contender.

Just watched Canadiens games.

The key difference: with Halak as a starter, even when his team was down 0-2, he would give a chance to his team to come back by making big saves.

In the exact same situation, Price disappeared

Edited September 29, 2009 by rafikz

[Colin]

See, I just find this idea ridiculous. It places the value of a single player over the importance of the team itself. Price should have lost his #1 title last season and should have to earn it back this season. He and Halak should split the starts early in the season until one of them establishes himself as the #1. Giving Price more of a chance than Halak simply because of his draft status and supposed potential is ridiculous. You can't run a team on potential, you have have to play to win. You can't let the Alex Svitovs of the world beat out guys like Marty St. Louis because of draft status. (No, I'm not trying to say Price is a bust like Svitov or that Halak will be a star like St. Louis, I'm just using an extreme example of how potential shouldn't be used to make big decisions.)

Price, at his best, I do think is the better goalie. I also think he is inconsistent and not mentally tough. Going back to the Philly series that people brought up, I do think a lot of that series can be blamed on him. How many times did Philly score on the exact same shot? Philly was clearly in his head, and it affected the entire team. All the fault can't be placed on him, but I think it would have been a much different series if he doesn't let Philly (Umberger, especially) get to him. Halak's highs aren't as high as Price, nor are his lows quite as low. I think he has a lot of potential that people ignore because he's a late round pick, so they write him off. I do think Price can/will be the better goalie long term, but I want to see him earn his job back. At best, he wins the job back and goes on to greatness. At worst, Halak wins the job and lets Price progress at his own pace as a backup, rather than holding the team back while he takes longer than expected to develop.

But how does he get better without playing, playing, playing at the top level of the sport? If he struggles sufficiently, sure you take him out. But you get him back on that horse ASAP and get him to work through his issues. I mean, if every goalie were pulled and lost their starting job because of a string of bad performances, even guys like Brodeur would have been lost. Wasn't it just two years ago that he had an absolutely brutal first half of the season?

If management feels a guy has every skill to become a legit number one - and star - in the NHL, they have to let him make his mistakes and learn. That's the only way to get better. Pulling him whenever he struggles just kills confidence. Much like many of the recent Habs coaches did with our rookies. You don't get better watching the game. You get better playing.

[JoeLassister]

Just watched Canadiens games.

The key difference: with Halak as a starter, even when his team was down 0-2, he would give a chance to his team to come back by making big saves.

In the exact same situation, Price disappeared

I watched about 50 games last season. My bad, must have missed all the games where Halak was brilliant and where Price sucked that much.

[rafikz]

I watched about 50 games last season. My bad, must have missed all the games where Halak was brilliant and where Price sucked that much.